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RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/8/2010 12:10:27 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrDouglas

Also why is it that so many people will blindly jump on the GW theory when onlya minimum number of planetologist/scientists have come out to endorse it, and there are over 4,000 that have signed on as it being a natural cyclic event, ( we go back to the tilt and wobble question).

google: information cascade Schopenhauer

So you believe that the 90 percent of climate scientists whose work shows GCC is real and in at least some way man made are just lemmings following some mythical pied piper ?

that's why science has peer review and repeatable observations and experiments. So that science isn't doesn't turn into a popularity contest but does it's best to stay rational.

There are some other posts on this thread that defy the imagination or are just jokes. Some of you folks have caused your 8th grade science teacher to roll over i n their grave.... assuming you had science or an eighth grade.

Vincent, at least you do understand the process although I fear your desires for how things should be sometimes overpowers your observation of what is.

Submittous, "science" and "global warming do not belong in the same sentance anymore than "science" and "scientology" do.
And anyone who believes in any of that "global warming" nonsense is, as they say in Boston, Mass, "Fuckin' RE-TAHHHDED!"
I bet Dick Cheney believes in "global warming" because he knows he can make money off of stupid people! I bet Tom Cruise and half of "Hollywood" believe in "global warming" because,.....they're "Fuckin' RE-TAHHHDED!!"
Anyone who believes anything that *ASSHOLE* Al Gore says has to be "Fuckin' RE-TAHHDED!"
"I'm a Believer, I've been Born Again!" Next thing you know they'll be knocking at people's doors handing out phamphlets trying to get them to go to "meetings!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/8/2010 12:40:59 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/8/2010 12:39:17 AM

EbonyWood

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Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

Most here seem to be confusing local weather with global effects.

Right now Australia for example is going through record heat waves and drought.

So what you'll say, I dont live there and it's cold here so nope, global warming isn't happening.

Cumulative and collective effects are the measuring stick.

I have heard that. I have also heard people claim that this proves the GW people are telling the truth. So if the record highs in Australia prove the GW theory, then what do the record lows in other parts of the world prove?

Not sure thb. My admittedly unscientific gut feeling tells me the planet is experiencing more extremes of all weather. Or maybe it just seems that way because it is better reported.

Is this instability a precursor to a more quantum shift in climate? Maybe the boat rocks a bit before it tips over.

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 42

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/8/2010 1:05:35 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrDouglas

Also why is it that so many people will blindly jump on the GW theory when onlya minimum number of planetologist/scientists have come out to endorse it, and there are over 4,000 that have signed on as it being a natural cyclic event, ( we go back to the tilt and wobble question).

google: information cascade Schopenhauer

Vincent, some interesting info there.

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Post #: 43

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 6:41:42 AM

marine87

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Joined: 5/5/2007
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I agree with those who claim that if there is a GW that its beyond our hands. I'd be almost proud to say that Humans in the past 200 years with the advent of steam/coal powered industries are responsible for this Global warming situation. We have some real power on our hands if we can be responsible for generating such temperatures and crazy weather that has happened this year or the few hurricanes in 06. I still doubt that we have the means to create such damage to Mother Earth. On the other hand Earth doesnt need humans we just waste and destroy the planet for our amusement, I doubt many Americans even know that we still use Open air burn-pits in Iraq to discard All* waste surely this takes place in Afghan as well. I dont know where I'm going with this just that I doubt car emmisions and refineries are responsible, I leave the Sun responsible.

Dan

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 44

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 6:45:40 AM

thishereboi

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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

If all the planets in our solar system are warming "at the same rate" as scientists said about two years ago that can only be caused by one thing, the sun!

OK, I know I am not a scientist, but how can all the planets be warming at the same rate, when they are not all the same distance from the sun?

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Post #: 45

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:20:02 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marine87
I agree with those who claim that if there is a GW that its beyond our hands. I'd be almost proud to say that Humans in the past 200 years with the advent of steam/coal powered industries are responsible for this Global warming situation. We have some real power on our hands if we can be responsible for generating such temperatures and crazy weather that has happened this year or the few hurricanes in 06. I still doubt that we have the means to create such damage to Mother Earth. On the other hand Earth doesnt need humans we just waste and destroy the planet for our amusement, I doubt many Americans even know that we still use Open air burn-pits in Iraq to discard All* waste surely this takes place in Afghan as well. I dont know where I'm going with this just that I doubt car emmisions and refineries are responsible, I leave the Sun responsible.

Dan

Yeah and we've had absolutely no effect on the plant and wildlife population either. What people with your particular view fail to realise is that we have drastically altered ecological systems within the rain forests that have existed for eons before our industrial revolution. We are not just adding co2 to the world we are removing systems that recycle it. As I've said before; if we could be introduced as a species to a certain environment and not have our actions alter the pre-existing finite balance within that environment then we would be god like. Our actions have consequences ranging from the decline of the tiger population to the melting of permafrost on foot hills of Bolivia. If wildlife has formed a co-dependency between species over thousands of years (evolving side by side) and you instantly remove one of those species then the other will almost certainly die out too. You say we have to be god like to change the wonders of 'mother earth' I say open your eyes and see the many ways we already have.

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Post #: 46

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:37:11 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Yeah and we've had absolutely no effect on the plant and wildlife population either. What people with your particular view fail to realise is that we have drastically altered ecological systems within the rain forests that have existed for eons before our industrial revolution. We are not just adding co2 to the world we are removing systems that recycle it. As I've said before; if we could be introduced as a species to a certain environment and not have our actions alter the pre-existing finite balance within that environment then we would be god like. Our actions have consequences ranging from the decline of the tiger population to the melting of permafrost on foot hills of Bolivia. If wildlife has formed a co-dependency between species over thousands of years (evolving side by side) and you instantly remove one of those species then the other will almost certainly die out too. You say we have to be god like to change the wonders of 'mother earth' I say open your eyes and see the many ways we already have.

We've also greened a lot of desert here in Idaho through damming various rivers and digging canals, and throughout the United States we've replanted significant acreages of forest that had been cut in earlier times. Wolves are coming back in such numbers we're losing our pets and other animals to them, we're even allowed to control their numbers through hunting them. Grizzlies and moose and waterfowl are coming back... if that kind of thing is your concern, devote your life to helping others do more of that.

Go to South America and help people there live greener lives.

The sun heating the earth and melting Bolivian permafrost doesn't necessarily mean that grandma should have to take public transportation through the rough part of town to get her medicine and her groceries.

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Post #: 47

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:40:36 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I have heard that. I have also heard people claim that this proves the GW people are telling the truth. So if the record highs in Australia prove the GW theory, then what do the record lows in other parts of the world prove?

If we have either record highs or record lows it tells me we're experiencing something we never have before and the trend is changing and not remaining the same. Why do people have this simplistic view that climate change or global warming simply means hotter weather overall?

We in the UK currently have a high pressure system diverting the warm convection currents (that we usually receive from the heated American continent land mass) and thus cold weather is moving down towards us from Siberia. This is a local effect and will come to an end as soon as the high pressure system over us dissipates. All these local effects have a knock on effect on other regions but sooner or later the overall system that governs them all will fall back into place. Global climate change is when the overall system that governs global weather changes such as the system of ocean convection currents. Such change can easily be measured and highlighted as a totally different change in nature than that of local weather effects.

Perhaps you should though ask why we still have this lingering high pressure over us in the middle of winter and where did it come from, this is the global effect.

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Post #: 48

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:52:49 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
We've also greened a lot of desert here in Idaho through damming various rivers and digging canals, and throughout the United States we've replanted significant acreages of forest that had been cut in earlier times. Wolves are coming back in such numbers we're losing our pets and other animals to them, we're even allowed to control their numbers through hunting them. Grizzlies and moose and waterfowl are coming back... if that kind of thing is your concern, devote your life to helping others do more of that.

Go to South America and help people there live greener lives.

The sun heating the earth and melting Bolivian permafrost doesn't necessarily mean that grandma should have to take public transportation through the rough part of town to get her medicine and her groceries.

You should really take a look at how much rainforest we are losing. I only highlight the wildlife issues because some people have this view that us mere humans are incapable of changing the earth or it's systems.

In this day and age can't old mother Hubbard get her LSD and knick knacks delivered? If not then start a business and meet that demand rather than dramatising something that has other solutions. Also what really infuriates me is that not many people have to significantly change their lives for example some people drive powerful cars when they could get by with a car with a fraction of the power. A bit like those that buy expensive PC's with a 500Gb HDD when all they use them for is the family accounts. Quality = fitness for purpose not unnecessary extravagance. I accept some people need powerful cars and tax allowances should be made for such people but we should be looking at the issue sensibly in a way that is sustainable. The majority of CO2 output is due to energy production and industry and there is a lot of scope there for investment in cleaner technology.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/9/2010 7:53:29 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 11:59:42 AM

THELADY

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/2/2004
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This is My take on global warming......

It is generally agreed that the earth was a lot warmer when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. the earth has gone through several ice ages and warming periods since then. ALL before MAN showed up on the earth much less before he started the industrial age!!

What caused the earth to cool and warm and cool and warm and cool .......etc? could it be a natural oscillation? What is the perfect temperature for our earth? Personally I prefer warmer......burrrr

Man has been keeping accurate and consistent records of the earths temperatures for less than a hundred years. Then,supposedly, some scientist studied the rings of 2 petrified trees and found evidence that we have warmed. So many things affect tree growth, not just heat.....and that study is in question(climategate)! Years ago I watched a Nova show (can't cite it, that was a long time ago!) where a scientist was studying petrified tree rings and he was showing how the weather patterns went through cycles.......it always has!!

Having lived in the south most My 50+ yrs I noticed that we have had snow dusting every 3 to 5 yrs and a "big" winter snow or ice every 11 to 13 years,,,,,till this cycle, its been 17 years since the last big one....maybe the earth is resetting the cycle? I am pretty sure we will have a good snow this time around! Much as I hate cold, I love a good snow storm, in the south everything stops, including the electricity! so we curl up by the fire place and have game days! The nice thing about the south is it only happens on average once a decade on only last days or in a big one a week!!

Why should I give up My full sized 83 pickup? because Gore and all those guys at the climate change conference are surely not giving up their Limos!! Gore lives in a mansion that uses more electricty than the whole nearby town uses, but ya don't see him moving into a smaller place!!! Oh and Chavez was loudly yelling in Copenhagen about how they were going to make America pay! (yes the money thing!!!).Our present "science czar" John Holdern believes in the de-industeralization of America to save the earth! (and forced sterilization....too many people) Great, we will just go back to the horse and buggy! oh wait.....they produce carbon and methane emissions too....or is that just the cows? ) Again, why should I give up My big safe pick up for a squash-able mini?

What ever happened to common sense? the earth has been here Millions of years and in little more than a hundred years we are going to destroy it? Yes its good to always look for better ways of doing things, and, if there was a better way we would be using it! Look at TV's I have one of the original Flat screens, its fucking huge! weighs a ton! now they have these thin babies....hang them on the wall.......if solar were a viable source, they would have been mass produced, the price would have come down and we would all have panels! In the mean time, we must depend on what we have!

I have always loved history, I remember being taught back in the 60's that people in the rain forest area using slash and burn methods for generations.......and when they move on...... it regrows.......amazing. now its a terrible thing, why? because Gore, who invented the internet, said so? because some scientist agree? these same scientist who got busted when their system was hacked(climategate) the same scientist who talk about how to stop scientist who disagree with them from publishing then try to degrade the disagreeing scientist by taunting them because they don't get published? PLEASE!!

Horses are nice, but I like and will keep My truck!!

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)

Post #: 50

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 12:25:44 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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There is more evidence of manmade climate change than tree rings alone (well done for once again highlighting one area of contentious research rather than the overall picture) and yes the earth has gone through significant temperature changes in its geological history and it will do again. However it's really a question of do you want to accelerate that process and can humans cope with the subsequent changes?

I can’t even comment on your rainforest comments because they are so laughable. People in the past may have cut down trees but now big business is involved in the practice and they are nothing if not efficient.

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Post #: 51

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 1:40:08 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

If all the planets in our solar system are warming "at the same rate" as scientists said about two years ago that can only be caused by one thing, the sun!

OK, I know I am not a scientist, but how can all the planets be warming at the same rate, when they are not all the same distance from the sun?

Boi, "distance from the sun" figures are calculated for each planet and incorporated into the figures. You simply cannot get around those figures.
Also the Vostok ice core studies were simply "dismissed" by the global warming zombies like hundreds of other studies.
That's the problem with their whole cult, they simply dismiss and discard *any* scientific evidence that refutes their,... "philosophy."
Look at it this way, try to convince any leftist that Dick Cheney is a "nice guy." I'm not saying that he is mind you but that's the type of resistance you're facing from the zombies whenever you present scientific evidence that that doesn't "agree" with the way they "think" things should be.
"They thought the earth was flat."

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Post #: 52

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:21:31 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: asyouwish72

Wow. How'd that get past peer review? Does this journal even do peer review?

Let's see... from publicly available sources:

Total present-day annual energy consumption per year(by far the highest ever): 5*10^20 joules (thanks, BP)

Incident solar energy flux to earth = 174 petawatts (10^15 watts... that's a lot of watts)

That's what hits the upper atmosphere. 30% of it is reflected back to space.

(in reply to asyouwish72)

Post #: 53

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:26:15 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If all the planets in our solar system are warming "at the same rate" as scientists said about two years ago that can only be caused by one thing, the sun!

That's a common myth, addressed here:

There is a nugget of truth to this myth. Our observations of Mars appear to indicate that the planet is warming. However, we don't have a lot of data regarding the climate of Mars, and while some regions of the planet are warming, we aren't certain that the planet is warming as a whole. If Mars is experiencing global warming, scientists believe it's due to dust storms darkening its surface, causing the planet to absorb more sunlight (a.k.a. decreased albedo).

A sub-myth is that both ice caps on Mars are melting. In reality, while the southern polar cap is vaporizing, the northern cap is expanding.

A few other planets in our solar system appear to be warming. For example, Pluto appears to be warming at a rate much faster than Earth (the opposite of what you would expect from a planet further from the Sun if the warming were due to solar effects), most likely because of its orbital cycles (seasonal changes). However, of the many planets and moons in our solar system, the vast majority appear to be experiencing no significant temperature change.

Moreover, we don't need to look at other planets to measure changes in the Sun - we have satellites which have directly measured solar output for the past 30 years. The satellite data shows that solar irradiance has not changed on average over that period, so it cannot be causing global warming on Earth or any other planet.

(edited for formatting)

< Message edited by thornhappy -- 1/9/2010 7:30:01 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Heat released by the industrial revolution directly... - 1/9/2010 7:45:45 PM

servantforuse

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I say again. Move the polar bears from the North pole to Orlando.

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Post #: 55

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