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RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 10:42:56 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I am more interested in whether a submissive's state of mind and life circumstances weigh into the determination of both guilt and type/intensity of punishment rendered.

In answer to this sentence...

Punishment isn't a big part of our relationship. There are negative consequences for our behaviors/actions, but the consequences are not to punish but to correct the behavior. From that perspective, when he imposes consequences for our behavior he takes into account all the information that he has at the time. He chooses the consequence that he thinks will get him the result that he desires.

The behavior that is undesired by him will be changed, but he will take into account the entire situation to find the most efficient method of changing it.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 21

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 10:54:07 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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You may or may not be about to change your favorable opinion of Me, lovingpet.

There's no question here really I guess. I just wonder about the whole mucked up mess. Would a "temporary insanity" sway other dominants to reconsider punishment? Does absence of that dominant presence during significant crisis and vulnerabilty excuse anything? What if that absence was out of the dominant's hands? Does coming clean count for anything? How can we keep from something like this happening again? I never wanted any of this to happen and neither did he. I just want to do better.

There absolutely are questions there. I'm going to attempt to answer them to the best of My ability based on My experience.

To be very honest with you, I do not like punishing one bit. If there is a situation that arises where I am at the last recourse of punishing, something is very seriously wrong within the dynamic. I don't punish for frivolous things. It is usually under the circumstances of where there has been some form of lack of obedience in areas where My submissive knows what is expected of him and has taken another option.

I do not accept temporary insanity in whatever form, to be a loophole for this. This includes emotional upheaval. (By the way, this goes on both sides of the spectrum, to include high and low.) Any sub wearing My collar has to have enough trust and faith in Me that the authority he has place in My care will be used to his benefit. That the guidance that I provide will be to fortify the dynamic, which will enrich us both, even when he has doubts.

It isn't just the easy things that I want submission to be conveyed. Sometimes, it includes the hard things, too. Even those times where a person's head or heart feel so wrapped up and carried away in whatever it is that is going on that it makes them feel pulled to go against the Dominant's wishes. These aren't cases where the submissive didn't know. They were aware, even if there was something in them that was making them feel unsure. At the same time, there was another part inside of them that knew something about what happened wasn't the way it should be in the dynamic. I don't know exactly what it was that happened in your life, but I'm thinking if you apply what I am saying here, it may just fit. That may be why you felt that you had to reveal whatever it was to the Dominant. There was what could be called a lack of faith in there somewhere, and that doesn't sit right with all of the other concepts that are supposed to be happening.

This isn't a brand new dynamic that we are talking about here. In the past, you've had your faith and trust in this person reassured time and time again. You know this person that you have chosen to submit to and I tend to think your judgment in doing so is sound. While no person out there is always right or has never made a mistake, you have a history with this Dominant of seeing you through past issues, and it has worked well.

Part of the reason that I do use punishment is to avoid whatever it is from happening again. That includes My sub to not have to go through feeling just like you are, right at this moment. As someone said earlier, the worst punishment there is out there is knowing that the Dominant is disappointed in you. Him using his authority to convey that to you is also to help you avoid repeating a situation that will have you feeling the way that you do in the future.

Coming clean does count. Without it, the level of honesty that I want in My life doesn't exist. There is no growth in the darkness of deceit. You can't expect a plant to thrive without sunshine. It's the same concept.

I don't know what happened on your end. I do know that I have every belief that you and yours will grow past it.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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Post #: 22

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 11:52:06 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Lovingpet, i'm so sorry you are having hard times. You handled no communication for three and a half days, MUCH better than i would have. For me, that alone would have ended the relationship. i sincerely hope you are able to work this all out, and that you find the peace and contentment you are looking for.

Give us a couple months and I will be much the same as you. Long distance both makes it a little more easy to forgive quiet times and a little harder to endure them sometimes. Thanks for your well wishes!

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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Post #: 23

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 11:54:31 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Yeah, it's not that I'm worried about it being so bad. I know he'll be fair in this and he is not one damage what is his. No fear except of that disappointment in his eyes.

lovingpet

That which i outline in red is what i feel is the gist of it. Disappointment in one's Dom's eyes imho is the hardest punishment to take. It is part of being human, and for me being submissive. It just about kills me to disappoint the ones i love.

Yup, that is definitely the worst part of it all for me. To have to delay getting it all over and behind us is not terribly pleasant either.

_____________________________

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Post #: 24

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 11:55:37 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Now, on the other hand, I can't really conceive of a situation where 3 or 4 days would pass without someone's ability to get a hold of me unless I had specified ahead of time that there would be such a period of time that would pass without contact. In any sort of emotional D/s relationship, being "on call" is part of even the basest set of responsibilities I think a D-type must accept and, at very least, the discussion of the topic should always be addressed. If the s-type is supposed to be surrendering in some sort of internal fashion, it follows xhe'll need the D-type to be a pillar in times of insecurity. It seems to me there was either a lack of communication in this department or a vast misfire in seeing eye to eye as to what sorts of expectations could be made concerning being "on call" and if 3-4 days can go by with minor events causing a temporary disappearance (none of what you wrote seemed so catastrophic to me at his end that there couldn't have been a way for him to get at least a cursory message of connection in that time), you'll need to understand clearly that such is the case and that you may need an alternate support system in the future if the need calls.

This is the thought process i was going through. Thank you for explaining it so well from the D-side of things.

lovingpet, i went off and thought while i was doing pilates and decided i really shouldn't contribute any more - i don't know enough about you, or your relationship, or your Master, and for me it really isn't my place to talk about his business. All i can say is that you seem to be going through the right process internally to set things back on track, and trust him, and yourself, to figure things out together.

And send you another hug.

julie

I understand and hugs are always just as good as advice!

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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Post #: 25

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 12:00:33 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

the whole point between a Dominant and their sub/slave is that there is honesty. in the past i have done things and afterwards realised that i had to 'fess up. it would have been easier not to, i wouldnt have had to feel ashamed and stupid while making the confession. but to hold back on something important is just as bad as telling a lie about it. fact is you have to tell them, otherwise itll just sit there chewing away and undermining the bond. like you said, he was all about making you feel better, consoling you for youre crap week and youre respect for him and youre relationship with him made it impossible not to tell him.

its up to him what he decides. and youre set for whatever that is. i think we are allowed to get things wrong, but you lost faith in him over a three day period and everything went to hell in a basket and then IT happened.

i didnt expect leniancy for what i did just because id 'fessed up. id done wrong and let him down - handing it over to him is how it gets healed.

hugx

That's really what I'm hoping...okay maybe not the right word... looking forward to is just getting the balances set back again. I would say there is as much to his actions directed at me and how I am feeling about the whole thing as it is what he needs to move past it, maybe even more. It is closure and catharsis. *hugggggs*

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Post #: 26

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 12:02:51 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

quote:

the whole point between a Dominant and their sub/slave is that there is honesty. in the past i have done things and afterwards realised that i had to 'fess up. it would have been easier not to, i wouldnt have had to feel ashamed and stupid while making the confession. but to hold back on something important is just as bad as telling a lie about it. fact is you have to tell them, otherwise itll just sit there chewing away and undermining the bond. like you said, he was all about making you feel better, consoling you for youre crap week and youre respect for him and youre relationship with him made it impossible not to tell him.

the point i have with honesty is the s type should offer up honesty when requested while the d type may with what he considers good reason with hold honesty for a time he considers appropriate

Possibly, but he has to be very careful with this. In a situation as serious as this one, he is not at all interested in anything less than full communication. Nothing less will resolve the issue.

lovingpet

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Post #: 27

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 12:07:10 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I am more interested in whether a submissive's state of mind and life circumstances weigh into the determination of both guilt and type/intensity of punishment rendered.

In answer to this sentence...

Punishment isn't a big part of our relationship. There are negative consequences for our behaviors/actions, but the consequences are not to punish but to correct the behavior. From that perspective, when he imposes consequences for our behavior he takes into account all the information that he has at the time. He chooses the consequence that he thinks will get him the result that he desires.

The behavior that is undesired by him will be changed, but he will take into account the entire situation to find the most efficient method of changing it.

Knight's Kyra

I don't even know if "punishment" is the right for it, but it is definitely consequences for my behavior that will result in a change for the better. My partner is much like you described. He will assess everything and determine how best to handle it. There are personal things to talk about in my post, but also the general (ie: how one dominant or another does things in their relationships). Those questions were aimed for that information. The rest is really just folks who care poking around to see if they can find and fix what hurts. I am appreciating both.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

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Post #: 28

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 12:19:28 PM

breatheasone

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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Lovingpet, i'm so sorry you are having hard times. You handled no communication for three and a half days, MUCH better than i would have. For me, that alone would have ended the relationship. i sincerely hope you are able to work this all out, and that you find the peace and contentment you are looking for.

Give us a couple months and I will be much the same as you. Long distance both makes it a little more easy to forgive quiet times and a little harder to endure them sometimes. Thanks for your well wishes!

lovingpet

Yes i do understand what you are saying. i REALLY hope your communication is strong, that will be the thing that gets you through. Sometimes people get too busy to actually be apart of the relationship without even realizing it happen. And i DO wish you well honey, more than you know.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 29

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 12:26:20 PM

lovingpet

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Now let me get this straight LP. I am supposed to change how I perceive you and get all defensive and nasty just because you don't coddle me? Just who do you think you're dealing with here?! LOL

I would just love to disagree and get nasty, but you are right. After how he has been put through his paces over and over again and shown me every time in every way I could trust him and that he was someone I could depend upon in times of trouble, I distorted it all and devalued it in the throes of my own personal pain. I became very self centered. This isn't a new relationship and I do have that history to bank upon. As much as it is a comfort when I am staring down his justice, I wouldn't be doing so if I had held to it as my anchor as I went through all these things in the first place.

Again, I don't know that "punishment" is the right word. It definite will not be a pleasant encounter, but there is no anger on his side or just desserts. The pain that I was in and will be in for probably some time I unwittingly wanted expressed externally and he will likely make it so. It will be like opening up a sore to let it heal. He will give me what I need in this. I can rest assure of that. He already has in many ways.

In this case the thing that is wrong with the relationship is assuring me that there is NOTHING wrong with the relationship. These doubts are likely building up more because of the move than anything else. I am pulling up roots and it is a huge thing and pretty scary in a lot of ways. I know it is right and good, but I get cold feet now and again. We talk about it and it all settles down. He is certainly making sure that I know he will handle the hard, dirty work parts of our lives together just as surely as he does the good and fun stuff. As he told me the other night, "Whatever I do about this, I do it to remind you that you are mine." I have thought on that ever since. I really had to get my head around what he was saying and when I did, it is a comfort like no other.

I appreciate your candidness LP! But if it makes you feel better, you're a mean, evil bitch and I hope you die slowly and painfully! There! Feel better? LOL

lovingpet

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If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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Post #: 30

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 1:27:26 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

There's no question here really I guess. I just wonder about the whole mucked up mess. Would a "temporary insanity" sway other dominants to reconsider punishment? Does absence of that dominant presence during significant crisis and vulnerabilty excuse anything? What if that absence was out of the dominant's hands? Does coming clean count for anything? How can we keep from something like this happening again? I never wanted any of this to happen and neither did he. I just want to do better.

lovingpet

Temporary insanity wouldn't be accepted at all, in any way.

I've only been punished twice in 5 yrs, both times were in *difficult circumstances* and both times I could have said nothing. Both times I knew that I was committing *punishable offences*. There are so few punishable offences that it'd be impossible for me to have claimed that I didn't know.

Because we both know exactly where we stand....no, he wouldn't reconsider and I wouldn't expect him to. I would add though, that he's never been disappointed in me, in any circumstance. It is always a case of cause and effect. I could only disappoint him if I behaved wholey out of character in a deliberate fashion. I don't disappoint him because he knows exactly what I'm like.

In answer to your second question ... Not for something punishable, no. He might understand all the circumstances surrounding it, he might have sympathy for the situation I was in but it wouldn't change the fact that I did what I did, knowing it was very wrong. There's no ambiguity about these things.

Coming clean counts for nothing here........it's expected. Doing what I'm meant to do, and what I agreed to do, doesn't bring me any extra points.

When it comes to something punishable, it wouldn't matter whether he was around or not. All the time I'm owned by him I know the score.

Other than that, there are are consequences for the things I choose to do throughout my life..........but I have never been in any doubt that they will occur, or what they are likely to be. It's rather black and white in many ways..........but a little like Kyra mentioned.. he takes all information into account. I DO have to attend the gym on 3 days a week ...... if there is a sensible reason why I have to miss a session, he's not going to bludgeon me............ I HAVE learned that it's best NOT to assume that nothing will get in the way of going, though... and not to leave it until the last minute. Procrastination is my biggest *vice*. His *penalty* system has been pretty effective over the years.

Yes, there might be a way of avoiding this type of thing in the interim before he lives with you ......by texting/voice mailing him when things aren't going well, or when there is some major issue........ And by him switching his phone on periodically during the day to check in.

You sound a lot chirpier now, anyhow. It's amazing what a bit of time and reassurance can do.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 31

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 1:43:47 PM

lovingpet

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Our situation is much like you describe, agirl. I know what the "rules" are and that I stand certain consequences for certain actions. He knows me very well and knows how to put me aright if I get off course. I've not been off course until now. I don't quite know what to expect. He didn't say that x behavior would result in y response, just that there will be a negative response to said behavior. He's not disappointed in me (though he is not pleased at all with my actions and that is just as bad to me). I acted very "me" and it was not at all surprising how things turned out. It doesn't make me in the wrong any less, but it does not change how he feels about me in any way. He loves who I am, flaws and all. What I still struggle with is sometimes knowing what falls into the "no no" categories. Some of them are simple statements that it is really simple to know if I am in violation or not. A couple are more abstract. I get what they are about, but I don't always recognize when I've crossed that proverbial line. We'll get there. We are not a new couple, but we are still a young couple as far as couples go. It takes time to feel out the boundaries on some things.

I was never really particularly upset, even in the beginning of this post. I think I would be more upset if he actually did back down. I don't need an out or want any particular consideration or mercy. I want what he has determined I need based on his deep knowledge of me. I am thankful to have him and know he will see things through in an appropriate and safe manner.

lovingpet

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Post #: 32

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 1:51:01 PM

DarlingSavage

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Don't try so hard to get out of punishment, it might be lots of fun!

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Post #: 33

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 1:52:50 PM

lovingpet

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I am not trying to get out of punishment and no, it's not going to be fun. This is the real thing. It is not a pleasure cruise. We have playtime and the club for that!

lovingpet

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Post #: 34

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 2:17:00 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I am not trying to get out of punishment and no, it's not going to be fun. This is the real thing. It is not a pleasure cruise. We have playtime and the club for that!

lovingpet

Yeah Right-On Lovingpet! It really toasts my cookies when people think punishment is, or should be fun. my Master beats, and flogs me for His pleasure, and mine. It has ZERO to do with punishment.

_____________________________

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Post #: 35

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 2:53:30 PM

agirl

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Your first post did sound a tad *upset*.......and also did have a fair few questions that seemed to imply you were looking for some leniency or reason for *escape*. You also mentioned the fear of *that disappointment in his eyes*...which is why I mentioned that in my post.

I have to admit that on both occasions that I was punished, the legacy of it lived on in me beyond that moment. I didn't let him down, I let myself down ........and despite knowing that I'd *paid the price*..... letting myself down is a lot more painful and isn't something he can eliminate....nor would he, actually. That part had it's own timescale.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 36

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 3:39:57 PM

DesFIP

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I should hope your state of mind and life problems weigh into things. Punishing you for showing up an hour late when you left late is one thing. The plane landing late or the car breaking down is something else, something you can't allow for.

I'm also having trouble with him not giving you any way to reach him. He doesn't have a landline you could leave a message on? And what good is a cell phone when it's kept off? He could have called you to check in on you, he could have bought a $10 phone card if he didn't want to turn the work cell on. If this is an ongoing thing with the phone, he should own a second one for personal use.

But I also don't endorse that you aren't ever supposed to bring any problems to him because he already has so many. So do you. And adding the stress that you're supposed to always be successful handling difficult things and not bother him is an additional stress that almost guarantees the kind of outcome you had. Because it just isn't possible.

More importantly, okay you were or will be punished. So what about next time when you can't succeed at something he's pushing you to do successfully when he still isn't available and you still aren't supposed to share your problems with him? How will a punishment today help the situation next time it occurs? Because punishment is really useless if it has to be repeated everytime the situation occurs. How does he propose to fix the situation?

I've got to tell you, that if I were placed in this situation, the way I would handle it would be to red on the thing he's pushing you to successfully accomplish when there is no way to do so. If the stress of that caused the melt down, I'd avoid the melt down in the future by avoiding the stress. I don't like being set up to fail or being placed in a lose/lose situation. And I would not believe that the person who set up the situation I had to fail in deserved the right to punish me, this week, next week, next month and so on every time it will happen again.

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(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 37

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 3:46:36 PM

lovingpet

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Upset as in confused. I guess I'd like to think that he might go easy on the ole gal, but really that wouldn't quite set right either. And I do think there will be a disappointment in his eyes...to see what I have done to myself with this... and I don't find any joy in that at all.

For us, once something is settled between us it is done and I don't really get the luxury of holding on to my guilt, upset, or whatever. He says it is done and over. It is done and over. That has been easier said than done in the past, but it is true. If I bring it up again he just silences me and tells me to settle and that it is finished. I view myself and where we are and my circumstances as he has me view them, that is, the way he sees it. I will not soon forget the lessons learned here, but it will be behind us. I think I am to the point of some kind of relief that after this ugly task it is done and over with. Absolution is curative for me.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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Post #: 38

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 4:05:10 PM

lovingpet

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Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I should hope your state of mind and life problems weigh into things. Punishing you for showing up an hour late when you left late is one thing. The plane landing late or the car breaking down is something else, something you can't allow for.

I couldn't control the outcome of this activity. I should have been able to control, at least for some time, my response to its failure.

quote:

I'm also having trouble with him not giving you any way to reach him. He doesn't have a landline you could leave a message on? And what good is a cell phone when it's kept off? He could have called you to check in on you, he could have bought a $10 phone card if he didn't want to turn the work cell on. If this is an ongoing thing with the phone, he should own a second one for personal use.

He realizes this and he knows that he was at least partially responsible for the outcome that occurred. I mentioned that earlier in the thread. He has already shown that he understands his part in it through communications that hadn't occured prior. I have appreciated it very much. He started this before he knew of my indiscretion, so I see it as a positive indication.

quote:

But I also don't endorse that you aren't ever supposed to bring any problems to him because he already has so many. So do you. And adding the stress that you're supposed to always be successful handling difficult things and not bother him is an additional stress that almost guarantees the kind of outcome you had. Because it just isn't possible.

Where did I say this? I bring problems to him all the time as he does me. Our relationship is a whole lot more than ropes and paddles. The issue centered on not being able to do so in this instance due to his phone being off and his computer crashing. He never expect me to handle this on my own nor did he expect that, if I did, I would do very well at it. The timing was thoroughly unintentional. I put a lot of pressure on myself to be more self sufficient that he actually expects me to be and I have to work on that.

quote:

More importantly, okay you were or will be punished. So what about next time when you can't succeed at something he's pushing you to do successfully when he still isn't available and you still aren't supposed to share your problems with him? How will a punishment today help the situation next time it occurs? Because punishment is really useless if it has to be repeated everytime the situation occurs. How does he propose to fix the situation?

First of all, he realizes how important staying connected in some way at all times really is. Second, we are in the process of closing the long distance gap that's bringing so much trouble now. Also, we have already discussed that this does not mean he won't still need to be reachable when away in case of emergencies. I have to work on my patience in tense situations and not fly apart like I did. He's got to know I can handle myself in his absence should I need to in the future. I also need to understand that he will always respond. He has never NOT responded.

quote:

I've got to tell you, that if I were placed in this situation, the way I would handle it would be to red on the thing he's pushing you to successfully accomplish when there is no way to do so. If the stress of that caused the melt down, I'd avoid the melt down in the future by avoiding the stress. I don't like being set up to fail or being placed in a lose/lose situation. And I would not believe that the person who set up the situation I had to fail in deserved the right to punish me, this week, next week, next month and so on every time it will happen again.

A lot of what you are expressing comes from the fact that I can't nor will I reveal what this "activity" is. It wasn't a set up to fail. Neither of us can control the outcome ultimately. It's a case of fall off the horse together, dust off, and go again. I will not and have never been punished for failing at this or any other thing we have tried. I am being punished for how I responded to that failure with self doubt, insecurity, and disregard for my partner. Frankly, I think he is spot on with that assessment.

lovingpet

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 1/6/2010 4:09:16 PM >

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 39

RE: Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment - 1/6/2010 4:16:37 PM

osf

Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
Status: offline

he has the right to do to/with you whatever he wants as long as you stay and consent

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all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 40

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