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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 7:07:27 PM

LafayetteLady

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lucy,

I am really sorry for how you must be feeling. But as I said at the end of my first post, the bigger issue is that you didn't feel you could tell him the truth from the beginning. That's a big problem that if things are going to be worked out, will have to be addressed.

It's got to be really difficult to not want to tell your partner something because you think he will break things off with you. Has he done something to cause you to not trust him that much or do you have trust issues from your past? If they are from your past, does he know about them? If they are from your past, he has to be able to work WITH you to overcome them. The blanket "why doesn't matter" just can't always apply.

As nearly everyone else has already said, the reason someone does something is not necessarily an attempt to be absolved of responsibility. Sometimes the reasons a mistake is made can be quite valid. Blind leadership in a relationship will work no better than blindly following.

I hope that you two are able to talk and find a way to move forward that will work for BOTH of you.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 21

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 7:49:56 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

this might sound odd, as long as the why is not used for a but. why to me is the facts, and when they cross over as excuses they become the but.

Why was i late? I was late because i ran into an old friend. I take full responsibility though for my tardiness.

Why was i late? Oh i ran into a friend, and you know how they are when we 'she' sees me. 'but ' what could i do?

I do not understand why this would be important to mention. Could someone please explain?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 1/7/2010 7:57:02 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 7:51:24 PM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not looking for advice on how to get the "why" across. I admitted that I fucked up. My boyfriend doesn't want to know the why and I realize and respect that (now--I didn't initially). My situation can't be helped at this point--it's in his hands, not mine. My questions were more to be taken in general and to help me work through my own thinking about this. As I said, I am beginning to think that maybe it's only the what that matters. That's a big philosophical shift for me and I'm interested in how others see it.

I did misunderstand. Okay - 'why' can matter depending on what the 'what' is. If the 'what' was "Honey, I cheated on you" then I'm not too sure that any number of 'whys' would be relevant. In your case it sounds like 'why' might have had more impact if you had come entirely clean from the outset. A white lie is one thing. We all tell them regardless of how holy some people will present themselves. A deliberate lie about something important is an entirely different situation and totally removes 'why' from the equation. In your case the 'what' probably became the only issue because you lied. The real bitch about a deliberate lie about something important is that it tends to stick with you like a scarlet letter. Lesson learned.

_____________________________

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(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 23

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 7:52:34 PM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

this might sound odd, as long as the why is not used for a but. why to me is the facts, and when they cross over as excuses they become the but.

Why was i late? I was late because i ran into an old friend. I take full responsibility though for my tardiness.

Why was i late? Oh i ran into a friend, and you know how they are when we 'she' sees me. 'but ' what could i do?

I do not understand why this would important to mention. Could someone please explain?

Kim

If I'm late because I felt like buying shoes, Valyraen will be irked. If I'm late because I ran into an old friend and lost track of time chatting, he probably won't be - depending on how late and what I was late for.

Other owners will do things differently of course.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/7/2010 8:12:54 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to cpK69)

Post #: 24

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:00:37 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Other owners will do things differently of course.

I understand.

Thank you for the reply.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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Post #: 25

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:07:33 PM

wisdomtogive

Posts: 636
Joined: 11/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

this might sound odd, as long as the why is not used for a but. why to me is the facts, and when they cross over as excuses they become the but.

Why was i late? I was late because i ran into an old friend. I take full responsibility though for my tardiness.

Why was i late? Oh i ran into a friend, and you know how they are when we 'she' sees me. 'but ' what could i do?

I do not understand why this would be important to mention. Could someone please explain?

Kim

Hi Kim
I just was figuring out any excuse, nothing of importance, to use as an example to giving why late and taking responsibility verses..blaming the why on the 'why'. To me that is making excuses and not taking responsibility.

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Post #: 26

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:17:01 PM

lucylucy

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I appreciate all the supportive comments and insights--thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I hope you both find forgiveness and peace.

We are working on that. I feel optimistic about it. What I did is not at all typical of me, and I'm confident I won't do it again. The real problem we need to work on is rebuilding the trust that I destroyed when I lied.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49
I don't believe it truly matters if "WHY" is used as an excuse. If you do or say something that is unacceptable to your dominant, then be adult enough to accept the consequences.

That was kind of my point. I wasn't using the "why" to get out of consequences but to help us both understand why I had done what I did. At least that was how I saw it initially. But he almost always sees explanations as excuses. I guess you could say he has a zero tolerance policy for excuses, and his definition of excuse is pretty broad--much broader than mine. But in thinking about all this, I am--I think--shifting my opinion. I'm seeing, at least, that the why may not be relevant in terms of accepting responsibility and dealing with consequences, but it may be relevant in terms of preventing a repeat offense. I'm still thinking this through, obviously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
lucy,
I am really sorry for how you must be feeling. But as I said at the end of my first post, the bigger issue is that you didn't feel you could tell him the truth from the beginning. That's a big problem that if things are going to be worked out, will have to be addressed.

Yes, I agree. I think we are going to try to work things out, and if so, I am going to ask him if we can address this issue.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 27

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:22:58 PM

lucylucy

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Joined: 3/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I did misunderstand. Okay - 'why' can matter depending on what the 'what' is. If the 'what' was "Honey, I cheated on you" then I'm not too sure that any number of 'whys' would be relevant. In your case it sounds like 'why' might have had more impact if you had come entirely clean from the outset. A white lie is one thing. We all tell them regardless of how holy some people will present themselves. A deliberate lie about something important is an entirely different situation and totally removes 'why' from the equation. In your case the 'what' probably became the only issue because you lied. The real bitch about a deliberate lie about something important is that it tends to stick with you like a scarlet letter. Lesson learned.

Good point about how "why" might have had more impact if I had been honest from the beginning. Obviously, I should have been honest from the beginning. I panicked and tried to minimize what I had done, and the stupid thing is, even as I was lying I was thinking, "The truth is going to come out." I knew it would come out, and I knew I would tell the truth eventually, which I did, but for some reason I can only chalk up to temporary insanity, I let the truth come out by repeatedly revising my story, making a messy situation ridiculously complicated.

Yes, lesson learned.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to DomImus)

Post #: 28

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:24:16 PM

cpK69

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Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Hi Kim
I just was figuring out any excuse, nothing of importance, to use as an example to giving why late and taking responsibility verses..blaming the why on the 'why'. To me that is making excuses and not taking responsibility.

Hello WTG,

My curiosity came from a slight misreading the original post… putting myself as the one responding.

My bad starts with turning ‘Why was I late?” in to a thought, instead of seeing it as a question from someone else; therefore the rest looked like an excuse to me.

My mind jumped track. I understand what you were saying now.

Thank you for responding.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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Post #: 29

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 8:27:27 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

I'm seeing, at least, that the why may not be relevant in terms of accepting responsibility and dealing with consequences, but it may be relevant in terms of preventing a repeat offense. I'm still thinking this through, obviously.

This is it in my opinion. It doesn't matter what I did what I did. The reason for the action can't undo it. The consequences will still come both from life in general and from my partner. Those reasons do become important, however, when trying to understand how the incident happened, what issues it is revealing, and how to improve things in the future. The why might matter, but not from the aspect of responsibility, but in the name of proactive prevention.

lovingpet

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Post #: 30

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 9:15:20 PM

kushiels

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Joined: 11/1/2009
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I think if there's to be any moving forward from a situation, the why does matter, b/c without understanding WHY something happened, you're at a big disadvantage in trying to prevent it from happening again, and at some point, hopefully, that will be a goal you share.

I think when the why doesn't matter, is when the what is so big that the relationship is going to end. Like with the example of cheating. If it is something THAT intolerable to the partner, then the why doesn't matter at all--the fact that it happened is so heinous that there is no moving forward, regardless of cramps, or illness, or temporary insanity.

But, again, the why, as an explanation, is relevant as far as future prevention and in SOME cases, is relevant in determining consequences.

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Post #: 31

RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 10:29:24 PM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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The why matters proportionally to how much he says it does. Ideally, the awareness of what degree that is should have been a topic of discussion, in some manner, at the outset.

Usually the only universal "why" that's important is an honest expression of misunderstanding that what was being done was at all something that would be taken negatively. Having done something you knew was inappropriate (and why it was so) and then having lied about it, which you'd also have known was inappropriate, the "why" is essentially nullified. About the only purpose for the "why" I see at that point, from a dominant perspective, is as a barometer for what percentage chance there is that my slave will succumb to random, unprovoked dishonoring or disobedience again, should I choose not to part ways (which is essentially him taking this new information and incorporating it into an assessment of how likely you are to be a future emotional liability).

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 1/7/2010 10:32:12 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 3:43:25 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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If why matters to you, if it is very important, but it is of no importance to him then you have a basic incompatibility. Why matters to me. So much so that I would not have gotten into a relationship with someone who it doesn't matter to.

I don't think there is any compromise here. Either he cares about what's going on with you, motivations, fears, etc or he doesn't. Next time pick someone to whom it is important.

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Post #: 33

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 4:45:20 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
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I learned at a very young age that lying always makes things worse. For me that is an absolute truth. I have yet to see an example where lying improved anything in the long term.

The 'why' I think is important to any thinking human being because without exception, everyone has made mistakes. However, if one starts out in a lie, or "edited" version of facts then trust is broken. Once trust is broken, even the legitimate 'why' becomes suspect.

Should my Master dismiss me because I made an honest mistake and immediately told Him the whole un-edited truth, without excuses, then perhaps He isn't the kind of compassionate, reasonable Man I have known Him to be and He would do me a favor to release me. I would never want be in a relationship with someone where I feared being truthful. If being truthful ended the relationship then I should be grateful for that end.

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(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 34

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 6:35:03 AM

robertolapiedra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

What do you think? And . . . dare I say it . . . why? If you're submissive and your D-type and you disagree about whether the why matters, how do you deal with it? And if you're Dominant and your s-type and you disagree about it, how do you deal with it?

Hello lucylucy. Here is what this ''d type's'' thinks. Your story has nothing to do with Ds. You do this to your friends and family and see how many are really interested in having you explain ''why'' you did something after lying to them about it. Let see ''you"" ask for an explanation after your dominant does something similar and lies to you. All I see is immature responses to a serious situation. It has nothing to do with the dynamic. It has all to do with your character. When in a hole best stop digging first, not attach importance to ''why'' you get yourself in holes (unless you like it ?). Second you get out of the hole (ask for help?) Third, maybe after getting out of the hole someone will ask you why you dig yourself into holes and have a nice talk about ''exceptional'' mitigating circumstances that should lead to mitigation of consequences (it's not your fault Honey, it is an imperfect world with imperfect people...).

You did something wrong, sure, the ''why'' is important to understand what happened (motivational psychology etc.). You did a second thing wrong, you were manipulative and dishonest with your partner (you ''lied''), everybody knows ''why'' people lie, you do too (avoidance, gain and control.). How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

1- I recommend an apology.
2- I recommend atonement in whatever style of Ds type you practice.
3- I also recommend focusing on your partner's ''why'', not yours. You will feel much better.

Just my opinion. RL.

< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 1/8/2010 6:37:04 AM >

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 35

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 7:24:37 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
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Comments:

"What I meant to do by getting into the "why" was help myself and him understand why I had done what I did."

I abhor excuses and generally loath why situations, precisely for the reason the OP stated above. If I want to know why, I will ask-I don't need it to be told to me. It is insulting to suggest that I cannot reach the conclusion that there may be mitigating circumstances on my own. Hers is to serve, please and obey. Failure to obey signals either willing disobedience or the introduction of factors that have caused her to deviate from the norm.. Trust me here, the latter is a much better alternative for her than the former.

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 36

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 9:31:08 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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One thing I will say, re lying, is that there are people who punish you for telling them a truth they don't want to hear. I told The Man in the beginning that if his response to a truth he disliked was rage, then I would lie to him. Some people believe in shooting the messenger. I'm not willing to be shot because they don't like the message.

If you ask for the truth, then you better be able to accept it.

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Post #: 37

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 9:42:57 AM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

Your story has nothing to do with Ds. You do this to your friends and family and see how many are really interested in having you explain ''why'' you did something after lying to them about it. Let see ''you"" ask for an explanation after your dominant does something similar and lies to you. All I see is immature responses to a serious situation. It has nothing to do with the dynamic. It has all to do with your character. When in a hole best stop digging first, not attach importance to ''why'' you get yourself in holes (unless you like it ?). Second you get out of the hole (ask for help?) Third, maybe after getting out of the hole someone will ask you why you dig yourself into holes and have a nice talk about ''exceptional'' mitigating circumstances that should lead to mitigation of consequences (it's not your fault Honey, it is an imperfect world with imperfect people...).

You did something wrong, sure, the ''why'' is important to understand what happened (motivational psychology etc.). You did a second thing wrong, you were manipulative and dishonest with your partner (you ''lied''), everybody knows ''why'' people lie, you do too (avoidance, gain and control.). How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

1- I recommend an apology.
2- I recommend atonement in whatever style of Ds type you practice.
3- I also recommend focusing on your partner's ''why'', not yours. You will feel much better.

Just my opinion. RL.

Thanks for your opinion, but I wasn't asking for responses to my story. I admitted in my post that I fucked up. I'm not trying to get out of anything and I don't believe my post indicates that I am. I don't need to be told "how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?" I know how I would feel and that's why I said in my post that my boyfriend is rightfully furious.

My question was more a philosophical one about what and why in general rather than about my specific situation. I gave details about my specific situation to set a context.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

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Post #: 38

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 10:03:39 AM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
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This post is NOT directed at those of you who have carefully read my OP and responded thoughtfully to the question I posed at the end or to those of you who have posted words of encouragement.

I am disappointed by the number of people who have chosen to ignore my actual question and instead pass judgment on me. I see this in many threads here on CM. Some people seem to prefer to feel superior than to offer any kind of insight. Congratulations to those of you who are so perfect that you have never lied, never acted out of insecurity, and never done something you regretted. I'm not one of you--I'm imperfect. I make mistakes and I do my best to own up to them and fix them.

I think it's obvious from my OP that I know what I did was wrong. How helpful is it, really, to berate me for lying and tell me that I should take responsibility or that I should know lying is wrong? Duh, obviously I know that. I said that in my OP. My OP doesn't ask for your opinion of what I did. Frankly, your opinion of what I did doesn't matter one bit to me. The only opinion that matters is my boyfriend's.

I am NOT asking for help in justifying what I did. There is nothing in my OP that indicates that. There is no justification for what I did. You're wasting your time and mine to tell me that.

< Message edited by lucylucy -- 1/8/2010 10:04:01 AM >

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 39

RE: what versus why - 1/8/2010 10:08:52 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Fast Reply-
I don't think it can be easily reduced to either "why" or "what". Being on the wrong side of a lie is hurtful, and oftentimes people don't want to quickly brush it away or sweep it aside with an explanation.
Oftentimes we need to sulk and be hurt, we need the time to work through it. When we are the offenders, we desperately hope that an explanation will make it all right, and that the pain will be short and over with.

You are right, all you can do now is see how he will handle it.

But don't beat yourself up too much over the lying after the fact- we all do it- when anyone is caught in a wrongdoing, we evade, we stall, we try to get away from the pain any way we can. I doubt he is so unfamiliar with personal transgressions that his moral universe was rocked by your trying to get out of the blame.

I hope you both find forgiveness and peace.

I think this is an excellent response...it fits not only this lifestyle but all lifestyles...We are humans and despite what we like to think we most always act alike in a given situation.

Saying there is a different reason then the sulk and hurt than AnimusRex states because of your type of relationship is his excuse not yours.

All of us deserve to be forgiven...and have an obligation to forgive because none of us are perfect.

Of course the information lucylucy is leaving out makes a big difference…the bigger the mistake the harder it is to forgive and we all know there are some things that we cannot forgive and still be ourselves.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/8/2010 10:25:22 AM >

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Post #: 40

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