Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (Full Version)

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Brain -> Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 5:57:02 PM)


I believe everyone has the right to vote, especially prisoners, because life is unfair and people should have the right to vote to select leaders who can help them with their problems, and prisoners have a lot of problems. So if a prisoner wants to vote for a politician who is in favor of rehabilitation, prisoners should be able to have that choice.

Having the right to vote for me carries equal weight with having the right to eat.


Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes

Under the Washington law at issue, citizens convicted of a felony lose the right to vote until they are released from custody and off of Department of Corrections supervision. The 2-1 ruling by a Circuit Court of Appeals panel put those restrictions in doubt, with the majority finding that the state restrictions unfairly penalize minorities.
The decision, hailed as a landmark win for prisoner-rights advocates, effectively removed the state's restrictions on felon voting on civil-rights grounds.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/413917_vote06.html



servantforuse -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 7:36:17 PM)

When you are in prison you lose certain rights. Voting is one of them. I you want to vote, don't murder or rape someone.



DCWoody -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 7:57:08 PM)

While I think that prisoners should be allowed to vote, both the 'basic right' idea having a lot of merit and as a precaution against sliding away from democracy....the discrimination argument is just stupid. If the laws or legal system discriminate, that is the problem, the lack of voting a consequence.



Arpig -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 9:10:40 PM)

I agree with Woody, they should have the vote, they are no less a citizen than anybody else and they should be allowed to vote, and I also agree the discrimination against minorities is really dumb...but what the hell, who cares what bizarre grounds they find to overturn a bad law.



submittous -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 9:22:47 PM)

I wonder what the split would be on party lines?... right now we have around one percent of the US population in jail, about 3 million potential votes since they are all likely 18 or older. Last election we had about 130 million votes so thats about 2 1/2 percent assuming they all vote which would be likely with prisons enforcing the law. We've sure had a lot of elections decided by a lot less than that....

Exactly how to you pander to prisoners?



Termyn8or -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 9:36:20 PM)

Very interesting topic actually. While I have read the Constitution, I can't remember everything. I am unsure of it's position on this, mainly because their definition of a felony, or high crime differs than today. I think things were a bit more defined back then, when a crime actually meant creating a victim. I can take countless scenarios, but I'll just pick one or two for brevity's sake.

Drunk drivers. In no state is the first offense a felony. Subsequent offenses may be. That was defined by statutory law, but the supposed right to vote was not. Logically that means statutes cannot override it. Therefore by definition it becomes a priveledge. However there used to be a poll tax. And to this day I can't argue against someone who asserts that only property owners should vote on property issues, like tax levies and such.

Take another case where they bust somerone with weed. In Ohio the distraction was bulk amount or three times bulk amount. But that was the degree. Possesion of small amount is and has been in many places a misdemeanor. So if a misdemeanor can become a felony, that means that any and all rights could be abolished simply by not granting license for priveledges. This is a different thing than a town voting amoung the property owners only, whether to put in a new road.

This differs from a poll tax because if they can charge you a nickel they can charge you a million dollars. Weren't poll taxes abolished on Constitutional basis' ?

If only true felonies were felonies I could agree. But since they are probably getting over in a way with their choice of our felons, they hold alot more power than most might think.

I am not fond of having the race card played when it comes to such an issue, but if that takes one of "their" cards away, it can't be all bad. The less manipulative powers they hold, the better for us.

Or, one could rather say that take the rights away for all crimes, crimes defined against the People's will. Get a ticket for jaywalking and lose your right to vote. All "they" have to do is make it a felony. Very simple matter. Should they have this much power ? You tell me.

T



AquaticSub -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 9:39:28 PM)

~Fast Reply~

They have the right to vote, I have the right not to be raped. When someone breaks a felony law, they are punished for it. As a result of that punishment they lose certain rights. A child molestor loses the right to live in a house with X distence of a school. That was a right they once had. If a person abuses their animals they lose the right to have them anymore.

These rights that we have are not things that we are promised we will go to our grave with. We recieve them in the expectation that we will behave. When we fail to behave we are punished and lose certain rights as a result.

I'm all for the prisoners organizing and trying to sway public opinion from within prison but they are being punished. They can suck it up.



DCWoody -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 9:44:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

I wonder what the split would be on party lines?... right now we have around one percent of the US population in jail, about 3 million potential votes since they are all likely 18 or older. Last election we had about 130 million votes so thats about 2 1/2 percent assuming they all vote which would be likely with prisons enforcing the law. We've sure had a lot of elections decided by a lot less than that....

Exactly how to you pander to prisoners?



Very rough calc with guess work and half remembered figures from my memory.

Roughly 0.9% of us population old enough to vote in jail,
Assume 75% actually vote (incredible guess balancing organisation by prisons&nothing else to do vs the who the fuck cares attitude far more common among prisoners)
~70% non-white
~90% male
Assume 52/48 split for whites in favour of repub, 90/10 in dems favour for non.
~0.42% of population extra vote for dems.
with ~60% voter turnout usually, that's 0.7% extra for dems result wise.
~0.16% extra vote for repub, so roughly 0.27% extra result wise.

Advantange to dems about 0.5% of votes.



Kirata -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 10:17:01 PM)

~ FR ~

I don't think an American citizen should be deprived of the right to vote. So beyond victimless offenses and a certain level of petty crime, I think people who devote themselves to that kind of career should lose their citizenship. Problem solved.

K.



LadyEllen -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 11:25:46 PM)

"no representation without taxation"

E



Termyn8or -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/7/2010 11:29:40 PM)

Kill, steal, rape, maim, all these things create victims and are real crimes. I would fully support such a system if based on that. Just like capital punishment, the proof is there, a real crime was commited and not mitigated, losing a right is maybe appropriate.

After all you have the right to travel among the several states by Law, but how can you do that from prison ? So it can be done under the Law of course, but how far should it go and when should it be invoked ? Who is to draw the line in the sand ?

One things about this line drawing in the sand shit, the bigger or stronger always will advance the line until the opponent is backed into a corner and has to fight against enourmous odds. We are already there in my opinion.

T



housesub4you -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 3:54:07 AM)

"Rights" are given to those who choose to live within the laws and mores of a society.  If I get a DUI, I lose the 'right" to drive my car unless I meet certain conditions set by the courts.  I have the "right" to bear arms, however if I take my weapon abd start pointing it at people for no reason, I am going to lose that right. 

Prisoners had the "right" to  vote, however they choose to risk that right when they commit felony crimes.  If you are not willing to do the time and lose your rights, don't do the crime.

let's be real, I'm really sick of hearing prisoners in the news whining that they can't see their children enough because they are in jail, or they want better cable, an xbox, or whatever.  Perhaps they should have thought of all that before they commit the crime.  This subject really gets me going because I use to work as a prison guard and I grew tired of the BS sop stories the news would put on about prisoners, but then the news is never there when they are throwing urine, throwing shit on people, stabbing people, fighting,  gangbanging, and other assorted delights.  Then they stand in front of a judge and talk about how they are not there for their children and it is not fair that the children should not see their father/mother so they should go home early



thompsonx -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 5:55:34 AM)

quote:

When you are in prison you lose certain rights. Voting is one of them. I you want to vote, don't murder or rape someone.


Over 70% of the people in jail and prison are there for drug related crimes not rape or murder.

HST



thompsonx -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 6:04:08 AM)

quote:

And to this day I can't argue against someone who asserts that only property owners should vote on property issues, like tax levies and such.


This arguement does not hold water. Renters pay the property owners tax with their rents so it would hold that they too have a right to vote on property issues and tax levies and such.

HST.



housesub4you -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 6:16:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

And to this day I can't argue against someone who asserts that only property owners should vote on property issues, like tax levies and such.


This arguement does not hold water. Renters pay the property owners tax with their rents so it would hold that they too have a right to vote on property issues and tax levies and such.

HST.


They are not paying direct property taxes, the way the law was written you had to be a property owner, not a renter for the right to vote, so it would actually hold water,

Just because I buy a car does not mean since I am paying part of the CEO's salary, I should have the right to vote on the board or as a stock holder, I have to own the stock to have a voice



thompsonx -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 6:25:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

And to this day I can't argue against someone who asserts that only property owners should vote on property issues, like tax levies and such.


This arguement does not hold water. Renters pay the property owners tax with their rents so it would hold that they too have a right to vote on property issues and tax levies and such.

HST.


They are not paying direct property taxes, the way the law was written you had to be a property owner, not a renter for the right to vote, so it would actually hold water,

Just because I buy a car does not mean since I am paying part of the CEO's salary, I should have the right to vote on the board or as a stock holder, I have to own the stock to have a voice



The property stipulation was repudiated for that very reason. The rentor is paying the whole of the property owners property tax.
Your buying a car may pay a portion of the CEO's salary but paying rent pays all of the property tax.

The consequence is that property owners could band together if they were the only ones who were allowed to vote and vote themselves a no tax on property.



MichiganHeadmast -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 7:38:21 AM)

Apparently giving the dead the right to vote wasn't enough.........



servantforuse -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 8:00:49 AM)

The dead still have the right to vote in Chicago. They use it in every election.



servantforuse -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 8:03:45 AM)

I for one, will not lose one minutes sleep worrying about a felon who can't vote.



Termyn8or -> RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes (1/8/2010 8:25:21 AM)

"The rentor is paying the whole of the property owners property tax. "

True, so how about a fairer lease then. Rent shall be $X per month plus X% of the propery taxes incurred.

You can vote in a tax levy on me and then move out when the lease is up ? You can vote in private Lear jets for each student in the public schools and then just move when your's graduate leaving me stuck with the bill ? Then you inhibit my ability to compete in the rental market after you have taken a dollar and given back a dime ?

I think it does hold water, but like most such vessels in today's society, it leaks. That is not going to change untill there is enough room for all the people on the planet. Since there is little chance of expanding the square mileage of the surface of the Earth, what is the solution then ? Keep packing people away ?

Murderers and rapists should be executed, theives and certain other criminals should be locked away. Drug users and purveyors should be encouraged strongly to either stop or moderate themselves and become/remain useful members of society.

That would solve a good part of the problem, but the world is not looking for solutions.

T



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