RE: right wingers losing their memories? (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Tazzy in no way is the info in question in your cite secret or unsourced.

"Further, these statements were properly admitted under state evidence principles governing excited utterances and out-of-court statements by young children."

Are you actually saying that INtell agents get to use the rule for "excited utterances by young children clause"

sometimes 2 rights come into conflict, for example the rights of a child and the rights of a perp. Which this is an example of. Its not relevant to the situation.

What policy will be used to allow secret u nsourced testimony that can not be cross examined.

Also in the abuse case, the mom caught the perp with his cock out, pants undone, face flushed. There was more evidence than just the childs testimony.

But guess what, no one in Al queda carries a freaking ID card. And it is only by intell work that we can say any of them are part of it.


quote:

(a) Where disclosure of an informer's identity, or of the contents of his communication, is relevant and helpful to the defense of an accused, or is essential to a fair trial, the Government's privilege to withhold disclosure of the informer's identity must give way. Pp. 353 U. S. 60-62.

(b) However, no fixed rule is justifiable. The public interest in protecting the flow of information to the Government must be balanced against the individual's right to prepare his defense. Whether nondisclosure is erroneous depends on the particular circumstances of each case, taking into consideration the crime charged, the possible defenses, the possible significance of the informer's testimony, and other relevant factors. P. 353 U. S. 62.


you've been given this information. you are unable to grasp the meaning of english as she is goodly spoken, not a Tazzy issue.




domiguy -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:39:31 PM)

who wants to stand and piss in the wind or yell at the rain.

Both pointles pursuits. unless of course you like to get pissed on.

You one of them thar type of folks, boy?




tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:40:33 PM)

LOL Domi you do know how to liven up a joint.




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:51:07 PM)

Ah, the raucous laughter of the trolls...


Nice




mnottertail -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:53:06 PM)

When it is a choice between that or unlearned, dishonest and pedantic buncombe.......

there ya go.




tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:55:13 PM)

ah the bitter moans of the morons.

im sorry you cant find humor where it exists. but i do understand why.

~smiles




thompsonx -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 4:58:20 PM)

quote:

One of the primary laws and customs of war is that one does not purposely target noncombatants and civilians.


We have and still do so what is the difference?

HST




jlf1961 -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 5:21:34 PM)

Why have the conservatives forgotten that, with the exception of the Gitmo detainees, all terrorist trials during the Bush administration was held in Federal courts? Resulting in 147 convictions, which is better than the 3 convictions handed down by military tribunal during the same administration.

Why was it Okay for the Bush Administration to have used Federal courts and not the present administration. It seems there is a double standard at play.




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 5:50:12 PM)

Sure Tazzy it is hillarious that you think the Illinois law on the excited utterances of children is relevant to federal terrorism case. But you are happy to go along with Mnot Directly Lying about the facts of the case he cited. cause thats what you got.

Derail, even brought in Domi to help. Good strategy.

Pretend away.




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 5:52:46 PM)

But the record still stands, not a single example of secret, anaonomous (the childs identity was know to everyone involved) testimony that can not be cross examined.

Insults, snarks, derailing, and lies

But not a single example




tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 6:13:58 PM)

actually, you seem to read what you wish, as usual.

my post was in answer to these two made by you...

quote:

Mnot, in a child case, there can be a screen, so the child victim does not have to directly face the perp.


Not true, as shown by the case i cited.

and this one...

quote:

Give a precedent where secret testimony that can not be cross examined has been used in a Criminal court case.


While it was not secret, there was no cross examination... everything was circumstantial from the mother's testimony to the child's,,, no DNA.. no sperm... no nothing, other than eye witnesses, that being the mother's and what the police were told by the child.




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 6:32:42 PM)

I love this, "while it was not secret.."
So it does not meet the test, I presented.

No one has attacked the premise of my test, just said it is not an issue, which it clearly is.

and I still am missing the relevance of an illinois law on the utterance of children.




tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 6:46:00 PM)

your missing more than that... lol




rulemylife -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 7:36:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Who exactly do you think I also Am.



Who do you think you "Am"?

You seem to be the only one confused about it.







thornhappy -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 8:05:44 PM)

I didn't say the 6th would be overruled - I'm saying that there are ways of handling classified data in court proceedings.  For instance, see a decision in Wen Ho Lee's case, were there are discussions of 5th and 6th amendment rights: news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/lee/0329opinion_order.pdf

For more info on the methodology, see the Classified Information Procedures Act (http://fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/pl096456.htm)



quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Thorn, that is a reply worthy of real one.

Do you have a specific case where the 6TH amendment was over ruled, that you would like to point out?


I cited the 6th, and quoted it. It is clear. What Due process means in civilian law is clear. IT means the right to examine the evidece and methods of getting it, and the right to confront all witnesses, publically. IF Terrorism is a civilian crime, then they get these rights in thier trials. Period. Give a real example of an exception if you can.


For example, the Way OJ was able to examine the validity of DNA testing, publically examine teh system, in order to show there is a possibility of not being accurate. Terrorists would get to do the same to any Intercepted Phone calls







tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 8:15:41 PM)

lucky... here ya go... not one.. but many.

The government has used secret evidence at least 50 times in the five years since the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 greatly expanded the permissible use of secret evidence in immigration cases. The use of secret evidence has not escaped judicial scrutiny, however.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20000621_lyon.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/dec1999/egyp-d01.shtml

and before you say this didnt happen because its not in the "regularly accepted news sources"

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/16/nyregion/in-lawsuit-ins-is-accused-of-illegally-detaining-man.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 11:02:11 PM)

Tazzy the links you give show secret evidence can be used for deportation hearings. The point is not to deport the terrorists. So I am again missing the relevance.

Your second link demonstrates my point exactly. A terrorist was let go, and his conviction was overturned because sectret evidence was used. That is an example of what I am talking about. Terrorist let go because of secret evidence. Don't you even read these things before you post them?

And your 3rd article is about the second article. How the ACLU and American Left went to court to get a terrorist released. Because secret evidence was used. The ACLU and the terrorist won. Do remember this was a guy Clinton's team called a terrorist and had locked up.

So I get no confidence at all that secret evidence would be valid. Every article you and Mnot posted had nothing to do with it or showed I was correct.


Tazzy this is from your link,
"Deportation of someone who is not a United States citizen is not considered a criminal penalty. Likewise, a non-citizen's presence in the United States without proper documentation is not a crime. Therefore, a person subject to a deportation proceeding does not enjoy the same level of protection as a defendant in a criminal prosecution, in which secret evidence is not permitted." http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20000621_lyon.html

I put it in bold because you and several others seem to have a really hard time grasping it.

But your link plainly says I am right Secret evidence is not permitted in a criminal trial. Deportation hearings are not Criminal cases, and have no relevance at all to what we are discussing




luckydawg -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/12/2010 11:06:07 PM)

Thorn, this is from your link,

"However, under ยง 6(e)(2), if the government prevents a
defendant from disclosing classified information at trial, the court may: (A) dismiss the entire
indictment or specific counts, (B) find against the prosecution on any issue to which the excluded
information relates, or (C) strike or preclude the testimony of particular government witnesses."




Don't you guys even read this stuff? So if the court agrees that the defense can not use classified info it can A, B or C. None of which is acceptable.


This is like shooting fish in a barrel...




tazzygirl -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/13/2010 1:55:33 AM)

you asked... i gave you answers... then you keep twisting your questions... eh.. go play your little boy games elsewhere. there are even secret courts in this country, not required to reveal the testimonies they gather... but.. of course that doesnt matter either.




jlf1961 -> RE: right wingers losing their memories? (1/13/2010 6:21:50 AM)

Tazzygirl, the only secret court sitting in the US is the FISC (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) formed under the FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) which hears requests for wiretaps and search warrants.

The jurisdiction of the court was expanded to include home grown terrorist suspects after 9/11. The court does not hear cases, set precedent, or decide case law.




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