Need for less federal government? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 12:30:28 AM)

I was watching Today Show the other day at work. (jan is the slowest month of the year for restaurants) A story came on about how a woman called 911 after finding her baby strangled in a soccer netting (for the purpose of this thread, lets assume she was not watching the tyke) While on the phone to 911, for the 4-6 minutes it took before rescue arrived, there were no CPR instructions given. (yes, mom should have known how, she apparently didnt)

In the course of the story, two things struck me as really strange. One, that there is no federal guidelines as to the amount of training required to be an operator, and two that the money charged by phone carriers do not go to emergency services in most states.



http://www.911dispatch.com/db/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2801&Itemid=1

Thoughts about the system?




eyesopened -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 4:30:19 AM)

Before responding to your thread I decided to do a little research in my own county. 

What I discovered is that a 9-1-1 dispatcher is considered only that.  A dispatcher.  All their training focuses on answering calls, understanding the computer and communications systems, how to determine which agency (fire, police, EMT) should handle the emergency, and do all this as quickly as possible.  Response times seem to be the critical measurment of performance.  I don't think anyone would disagree with response times as being the most critical.

I was dismayed to see that basic first-aid courses as well as certifications were completely voluntary!

I am not in favor of more and more federal statutes but I can't imagine any job that deals with public service not having the basic instructions of CPR and Heimlich maneuver provided for quick reference.  You work in the food service industry and I am willing to bet real money that somewhere in your break area there is a placcard that describes with pictures how to respond to a basic medical emergency. 




Louve00 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 4:34:29 AM)

I watch the Today Show every morning and I saw the exact story you're talking about!  In fact, that woman asked the 911 operator (i think they said) 11 times!!! what to do and the 911 operator offered her silence and 15 requests through the phone call to be calm.  I was horrified.  

As I listened to the story, they went on to say something that is entirely true.  In most cases, you have to have a license to do someones hair and even their fingernails.  But to employ someone to sit down and take life emergency calls, without the slightest idea on how to instruct someone to save a life is beyond me (never mind perform the procedure themself, just have a little laminated card they could read to the caller, for crying out loud).

As far as my thoughts on it, I can only hope procedure will change.  As I said, they don't even have to be certified in CPR, since you can't do CPR over the phone, but have a little card, or a little book, or some kind of cheat sheet for the imbeciles to be able to read instructions to the caller.  In fact, knowing what caliber of people they hire, it would be more comforting to know they had an entire procedure sheet next to them with written instructions on how to handle ANY disaster.

I would imagine a huge lawsuit can make that happen.




Moonhead -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:05:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
I am not in favor of more and more federal statutes but I can't imagine any job that deals with public service not having the basic instructions of CPR and Heimlich maneuver provided for quick reference.  You work in the food service industry and I am willing to bet real money that somewhere in your break area there is a placcard that describes with pictures how to respond to a basic medical emergency. 

I'm not sure that's going to be the case, or even desirable for the restaraunteur, though. You live in a very litigatious society, after all. Would they really want to get sued because some ambulance chaser has got hold of a client who had their ribs cracked during CPR? Leaving somebody to wheeze and turn blue until an ambulance appears is going to be a lot safer, I'd expect.

Louve has a good point that litigation might have the opposite effect on the emergency services, though. Though I do wonder if the reason they aren't giving out advice on CPR over the phone might not be related to the risk of somebody suing because they feel they've been given instructions that aren't clear enough.




Louve00 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:22:29 AM)

My thoughts on CPR are this.  If a person needs it and you don't give it, they will surely die.  If you give it, and don't give it incorrectly, you could save their life.  I doubt, if they survive a situation with a few cracked ribs (which often does happen to a person when they get CPR), they would happily settle for the discomfort than the option they were left with, had someone not given them CPR.  Also, I'm not entirely sure on that, or if the law even exists anymore, but there used to be a "good samaritan" law that prevented people from getting sued in situations just like this, as long as they didn't charge for their services.

If I were in a restaurant choking, I would hope some waiter, stranger, or anyone would help me.  I'm a retired respiratory therapist.  If I was choking and still conscious, I've been taught how to do the heimlich on myself with a chair.  If I pass out and everyone was afraid of a law suit for saving me.....well.....my family will be collecting my life insurance.




Moonhead -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:25:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
Also, I'm not entirely sure on that, or if the law even exists anymore, but there used to be a "good samaritan" law that prevented people from getting sued in situations just like this, as long as they didn't charge for their services.

Fair enough. I didn't know that. There has been a recent rash of people suing hospital trusts over here, though.
I'm not sure, but isn't it possible to kill somebody doing CPR if you don't know what you're doing? Even iof they're not worried about litigation, that could be another reason why they don't want dispatchers with no medical training reading out instructions from a crib sheet. If they don't understand what they're reading and somebody asks to have something clarified, that could be dangerous.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:25:37 AM)

good samaritan laws offer some protection to many of those who have little knowledge but are willing to help. Myself, because i am trained, i would be held to a higher standard than anyone else there if i lend aid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:27:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
Also, I'm not entirely sure on that, or if the law even exists anymore, but there used to be a "good samaritan" law that prevented people from getting sued in situations just like this, as long as they didn't charge for their services.

Fair enough. I didn't know that. There has been a recent rash of people suing hospital trusts over here, though.
I'm not sure, but isn't it possible to kill somebody doing CPR if you don't know what you're doing?


If you need CPR, you will be dead anyways. Doing something, in this situation, is always better than doing nothing.




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:28:13 AM)

When I pay my phone bill every month it goes to provide a service. I know that I will have a dial tone and my computer will work. It is expensive for the phone company to keep the outside plant working to provide good service. To expect them to pay for 911 training for the U S is absurd.




CarrieO -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:34:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

As I said, they don't even have to be certified in CPR, since you can't do CPR over the phone, but have a little card, or a little book, or some kind of cheat sheet for the imbeciles to be able to read instructions to the caller.  In fact, knowing what caliber of people they hire, it would be more comforting to know they had an entire procedure sheet next to them with written instructions on how to handle ANY disaster.



The link Tazzy provided was clear in saying only 18 states have no training requirements.  While watching the Today show story, I was less than surprised to hear them mention talk about all the funds that are set aside for 911/EMD (emergency medical dispatcher) training and the reality of what the money actually gets used for.  A quick call to the finance board of your local town might surprise you.

Not all call centers are huge operations...desks and computers in rows.  Many are run from your local police department with at least one officer on duty along with a EMD dispatcher in communications. My state, Connecticut, has standard requirements of the EMD personal http://www.ct.gov/dps/cwp/view.asp?a=2147&q=437288  First Aid and CPR/AED training is also required.

Dispatchers usually have either a set of EMD Protocol cards or a computer program with the same questions to ask and protocols to follow.  Simple enough for any "imbecile" to follow.

Response times are key...but maybe not in the way everyone assumes.  Yes, getting police/fire/EMS to a scene is priority but so is getting the proper information from the caller so that a dispatcher knows not only where to send help but what help is required and what situation the dispacher is sending the help into. 

In Tazzy's link, there is a list of 911 calls...
http://www.911dispatch.com/db/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2743&Itemid=1061
If you listen to this call Infant shot (this operator was fantastic, she got all the answers she needed and was able to remain calm and keep the caller on the line) you'll be able to hopefully get an understanding that "call taking" is more than just being a glorified receptionist.

edited to fix a link




eyesopened -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:36:03 AM)

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the phone companies pay for the training.  Our taxes do that.  The charge is to help pay for the emergency services.  It's kinda like the highway tax added to fuel charges.  A way to collect taxes appropriated for a specific service.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/phonebills/samplePhonebill.html




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:40:58 AM)

Tazzy did say that phone carriers do not fund emergency services. I'm willing to bet that that is exacly what she would like to see happen.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:43:01 AM)

lol... you are, huh? how much?




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:46:09 AM)

Why do you see it 'as strange' that phone companies do not fund emergency services ? I don't see that as their responsibility.




CarrieO -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:58:03 AM)

~fast reply~

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32109599

Don't assume the money listed on your phone bill is going to fund the 911/EMD system. 

Quoted from the above article:

"To elude the federal government's wagging finger, New York is changing the name of its "Enhanced 911" fee to "Public Safety Communications Surcharge," to make it clearer that 911 is just one of its purposes."




Real0ne -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:58:26 AM)

and it would have only took that kid 10 minutes to learn cpr

next we will have kids who are unable to put the spoon to their mouths without a federal statute explaining how to do it...

than whats next statutes on how to interpret the dictionary?




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:00:34 AM)

you should try seeing it as more than just a phone issue, servant. in some places if your phone is dosconnected, 911 service still works. something i find wonderful. i do object to those funds being diverted for other uses within the state programs. they should be used to maintain the lines and the personnel. however, training should be mandated. many people, when faced with an emergency, tend to forget all the training they may have had when dealing with a family member/loved one. again, understandable.

but, allow me to address your bet, so you can pay up and we can get back to the original op.

parents, and the public in general, should be trained on CPR as a minimum.

911 fees should be used for that, and that alone, maintaining the 911 system. minutes when delivering life saving attempts can be the difference between life and death.

even the most basic of attempts can make a difference. someone jogging the memory of a caller at the scene can at least give a few minutes of support until medical personel arrive... and possibly save a life. if nothing else, it can take away the guilt and the "what-ifs" to someone who would have otherwise stood around and watched someone they love die, feeling completely helpless.

thhere should be a standard for training, for protocols, and funding of such systems.

imagine being the operator of such a call, and feeling helpless as someone cries, moans, and begs for your help... and you dont know what to say.

the system is peppered with problems, on both ends. 911 is a state run program that, in my opinion, should have national standards.

and THAT was the point of the thread, servant.




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:11:56 AM)

You can't depend on the federal govt. for everything. I have had CPR courses and paid for them myself. When you mandate something, you force other tax payers ( or maybe utility share holders ) to foot the bill. 911 service when a phone line has been disconnected ? Maybe I learned something today. When a line has been disconnected that is just what has happened. It isn't connected to anything and will not work.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:25:42 AM)

As a nurse, my CPR is dependent upon me to keep updated for the job, unless my job OFFERS to pay for the course. I dont see why this has to be any different for 911 operators. Any other health care worker has to have these skills. And since the program tells you if you have an emergency to call 911 for medical help, its not unwarranted to believe hey at least can talk a lay person through safety procedures.

as far as phone lines being disconnected...

Well, 911 still works, in most cases. In California, telephone companies are required to keep the line “warm” even if service is voluntarily or involuntarily discontinued. This access to 911 service is often referred to as ‘warm line access’ or ‘quick dial tone,’ so named because a minimal amount of electricity continues to run through the line. You may not get a dial tone, but plug a phone into a socket with no phone service and the phone will light up. I verified this again with the California Public Utilities Commission.

....

“Please note however, that it is very important that customers should rely on the service provider that they use for phone service, to provide access to 911, and they should not assume that a discontinued line or line not in use provides that access to 911,” Chow said.

Telephone companies are only required to offer 911 access if technology allows. As the code says, “… to the extent permitted by existing technology or facilities.” If the resident cuts all electricity to the ‘warm lines,’ then AT&T and Verizon can’t offer emergency service (one reason why a person would cut the warm line is to use the house’s copper wires for VoIP service — most VoIP customers don’t bother doing this, though).

Also, Chow points out, “the Commission has not specified a time limit governing how long the carrier is required to maintain the facilities to a customer who has discontinued service, and these requirements will vary by carrier.”

Both AT&T and Verizon provide these “warm lines” to customers.


http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2008/12/18/911-still-works-if-you-discontinue-phone-service-to-save-money/6426/

Instead of assuming you know more than everyone else, try having an open mind, servant. Others do know things you do not, you know things i do not, and i tend to listen and research before typing.

so, even if your phone is disconncted by the phone company, the 911 service will work, depending on the state you live in. as the article states, AT&T and Verizon dont completely disconnect.




TheHeretic -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:38:01 AM)

Rather than trying to mandate that emergency operators try to explain first aid to people in crisis, shouldn't the gov't be mandating that parents be trained before they are allowed to breed?  While we are at it, maybe there should be minimum income requirements, and regular safety inspections of the home...





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