RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:17:21 PM)

Anjelika, because most of them have at least a tiny basis in reality. I remember him saying he was going to stop on his own, maybe he didn't.

But his obvious deterioration right in front of us is visible to everyone, who is not actively cheering him down these delusional paths.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:19:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Pa was quite upfront several months ago that he was going to stop seeing his shrink, and quit taking his meds.


....damn, i missed that.

i have to admit to being worried about P. i hate to see anyone disintegrate like this. There's a good, warm man behind the bizarre words he types......i'd love to see the old P come back.


I concur. He's one of the finest people on this site, without a doubt. All heart, and not a mean bone in his body. Like you and several others, I find it sad, watching the poor guy spin farther and farther out of his orbit every week. I'm getting more and more concerned about where it's going to end.

PA - we love you, man. Please reconsider your decision to dump your shrink and your meds. This isn't going in a very encouraging direction.




tazzygirl -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:28:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Anjelika, because most of them have at least a tiny basis in reality. I remember him saying he was going to stop on his own, maybe he didn't.

But his obvious deterioration right in front of us is visible to everyone, who is not actively cheering him down these delusional paths.


lucky stop. i know what you are trying to do. either support the effort for him to get help, or dont. but stop trying to turn all this into politics and baiting.




angelikaJ -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:30:12 PM)

Thinking and posting are 2 different species.

as for PA's basic argument, it is not new; there were many mentions of similar theory in discussion over the Gardasil vaccine.




luckydawg -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:30:54 PM)

Tazzy, go fuck yourself. Its true.





sirsholly -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:34:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And all that has to do with vaccinations?
feel pretty dumb now, dontcha! [:)]




tazzygirl -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:35:56 PM)

lol... im not sure holly... should i?




sirsholly -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

In the future- I will assess what vax I need- if I can flourish with out- explore the issue thoroughly.
hard to do a thorough exploration of the issue when you are flat on your ass with the flu. 
quote:

That is not to say I will never get one-

figure I am the least effective dose- mode.
and how do you plan to calculate the dosage? Hmmm?






sirsholly -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:42:44 PM)

nm




tazzygirl -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:44:48 PM)

and im supposed to feel dumb???

pft!




sirsholly -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:50:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And all that has to do with vaccinations?
feel pretty dumb now, dontcha! [:)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lol... im not sure holly... should i?
well sure!! Me too. All this time we thought vaccines were for the prevention of diseases.

Now, thanks to Hunky, we know they are tied to 9/11, the war in Afghanistan, any/all bail outs, the war in Iraq....etc.

We should feel...humbled...the next time we roll up our sleeves so someone can ram a needle into our subcutaneous tissue.

quote:

The wars- the bail outs.  9-11.

the bail outs. 

2.3 trillion $ missing 9-10-01

then war Iraq- based on WMDs.

throw in Aphgansitan- where such wars were going to pay for themself.

now you have the country being looted.

when all the dust settles then what?

No one is going to actually PAY the trillions.

We all can start working now around the clock- everyone in the country and it wont pay it in our lifetime.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:52:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
It obviously has upset people that I point out that they injected poisons into their body with unknown long term consequences.


Dude, I didn't take any of the vaccines. I'm not upset.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
I will consider leaving collar me.  I will give it some thought.  


I don't think anyone wants you to leave. I'd miss you.

The thing is, I'm having trouble following some of what you're saying and others are, too.

I'm more than willing to discuss whether the government has the right to force you to take a vaccine if you don't want it, or whether all these recent flu scares are serious or not, but it's tough to follow your arguements today.

I don't think people are mad at you, they're worried.




tazzygirl -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 7:56:41 PM)

dang holly!!

[sm=ofcourse.gif]

thats why i need ya around.

[sm=bowdown.gif]

you keep me straight!






sirsholly -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 8:03:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

figure I am the least effective dose- mode.

let me come back to this, Hunk. I totally understand your desire to want the least amount of medication to accomplish the goal.

But listen Darlin' the dosages of a medication (and i am not talking vaccines here) are developed by scientists and perfected in case study after case study. None of us here have the medical knowledge to even begin to do this on our own, you included. Even pharmacists and PCP's have to rely on the recommended dosages of medications as per the case studies.

Reducing the dosage of your medications on your own, without the close supervision of a doctor, is going to hurt you.




AnimusRex -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 8:20:53 PM)

Its funny, isn't it...that a panel of credentialed scientists and medical doctors can give an opinion that is cross referenced, backed up with data and peer reviewed, and people view it with extreme skepticism, and demand absolute proof of its conclusions.

Yet they will read a website by someone they have never heard of, that no one else has heard of, that has no credentials whatsoever, and place their very life and health with credulous childlike faith.

You can go to a health food store and meet a total stranger who will assure you that pasteurized milk is unsafe and a deadly plot to kill us all, and that the science is not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt; yet if you pull a lint covered pill out of your pocket and tell them that this is an herbal remedy that cures cancer, they will pop in their mouth without a single question.


We are right back to Dr. Animus Rex's Miracle Elixir that cures warts, hairy moles and Liberalism, we are in the age of the Flat Earth Society and The Creation Museum where dinosaurs frolic with cavemen.

PT Barnum was right.




Arpig -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 8:35:16 PM)

Speaking from experience PA, please PLEASE go back on the recommended dosage of your meds and call your shrink. No good comes from trying to deal without the meds...I know what I am talking about.
I know you are feeling distrustful of us all, and believe me I do know what you are going through...been there, done that, and have the ex-friends to prove it. If the meds you are prescribed don't agree with you tell your shrink, he can prescribe others...there a shitload of options.
If you need to talk to somebody who has been where you are then drop me a line on the other side.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 10:05:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Its funny, isn't it...that a panel of credentialed scientists and medical doctors can give an opinion that is cross referenced, backed up with data and peer reviewed, and people view it with extreme skepticism, and demand absolute proof of its conclusions.


Have you met with these "credentialed scientsists" and "medical doctors" who claim this is safe, or did you just take someone's word for it? [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
We are right back to Dr. Animus Rex's Miracle Elixir that cures warts, hairy moles and Liberalism...


I knew those dang liberals had warts and hairy moles! I knew it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

PT Barnum was right.


You ever doubted?


Okay. In a more serious vein ... the rise in the number of conspiracy believers over the past decade is starting to give me some alarm. Since it's impossible to prove a negative, none of these outlandish propositions can ever truly be debunked. Even if I hand you Obama's birth certificate you can claim it's a forgery.

Doctors aren't perfect, they make mistakes and people often put more trust in a physician than they should ... but the vast history of medical science isn't some huge swindle. Massive improvements in the human condition have been achieved. I'm not sure what's driving this need amongst people to believe in the most outlandish and bizarre theories.

Do you think the rise of the Internet is fueling this somehow?





thornhappy -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 10:25:05 PM)

I shall mount zee soapbox!!

I believe it's the lack of math/science education.  We suck at it.  So folks learn nothing about the scientific method, critical thinking, or statistics.

* steps down from soapbox *

I am wondering, though, at the level of sheer paranoia around teh intarwebz nowadays.  The urban legends, myths, and conspiracy theories sure have longer legs than in the days of yore.  It's like playing whack-a-mole when you try to refute the theories; no matter how much data you gather to debunk a theory, it doesn't work, and more pop up as you watch.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 10:39:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy
It's like playing whack-a-mole when you try to refute the theories; no matter how much data you gather to debunk a theory, it doesn't work, and more pop up as you watch.


I hate to break this to you, but once they realize that YOU are a part of the conspiracy and only trying to keep the rest of us down (or kill us in any of a variety of truly awful ways - radiation, poisoning, etc.), everything you say is suspect!




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "The Citizens Have Won" (1/9/2010 11:24:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
I'm not sure what's driving this need amongst people to believe in the most outlandish and bizarre theories.

Do you think the rise of the Internet is fueling this somehow?




Well...off the top of my head, I see at least 2 questions in there. What is driving the need, and what is feeding the phenomenon.

First of all, I think Madame Thorn hits pretty close to the mark with her theory about the appalling state of science and math education in our schools, but that's only part of it. In my opinion, it's not just that our education system doesn't teach kids how to think critically about science (although that certainly does seem to be true) - it's more that we're not teaching our kids to think critically, period. The mission of our educational system seems to have shifted; it seems to focus now on teaching kids how to memorize facts and pass tests, rather than how to discern what those facts mean, and fit them together to form a comprehensive picture of a larger issue.

Add to this what I see as a widespread and increasing feeling of confusion about world affairs - a growing sense on the part of many Americans  that we just don't quite understand what is happening in the world, why it's happening, what our role is in all of this, and how we can exercise control over the situation - and what you have is an increasing number of people with a gut feeling that everything we thought we knew just a few years ago simply doesn't seem to be true anymore, and we have no familiar reference points that we trust to reassure us that we are in command of our own destiny. People don't understand what's happening, don't understand what to do about it, and don't know how to figure those things out.

A country full of people who, just 10 years ago, thought they understood everything that was happening in the world, and were in complete control of it, now have no idea what they know. None of what they once took for granted feels logical anymore, and they're just desperate for some information that "feels" right, so they can believe it and trust that belief.

And now, you add the internet to the equation. A medium that provides what is effectively an infinite amount of information; but at the same time, no easy tools for figuring out what any of that information means. For a frightened, relatively ignorant (by world standards) population, the internet is the worst of two worlds - unlimited information, but no simple, 5-second-attention-span way to identify which information makes sense and which doesn't. Superficially, the accurate information does not look substantively different from the totally wacko looney tunes, and a population that has not been taught how to think critically falls back on the worst possible method for assessing credibility - evaluating information on the basis of what sounds as though it fits what they think they already know. In other words, what do they want to believe? People are not looking to challenge their preconceptions, they're looking for information to confirm their preconceptions.

Instead of looking at something and asking whether it makes sense in and of itself, they're looking at it and asking if it fits what they already think. If it does, great - it must be true! If it doesn't, then it must be bullshit. And on the internet, no matter what you believe it's just a matter of time before you'll find something that confirms it. If crazy is what you already are, then crazy is what you're going to look for, and on the internet it won't take you long to find it and prove to yourself that you were right all along, because by god here's a website saying the exact same thing!

The internet is a marvelous tool in many ways, but over the last year or two I've come more and more to the conclusion that on balance, it's going to prove to be the worst thing that ever happened to American society. In any given issue, the lowest common denominator is never more than 3 or 4 mouse clicks away. We have doomed ourselves, because we as a species - and especially we as a society - are too ignorant, and too intellectually and emotionally immature to use this tool wisely. So instead, we use it foolishly. And will continue to do so until nobody, anywhere, really knows how to think at all anymore. Thank god that I'm of an age where I'll only have to see another quarter century or so of this disintegration of of our culture.




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