RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 10:57:12 AM)
quote: But if you live under a socialist dictator, good luck not paying him. If you live under ANY government, good luck not paying them....You are attributing to "socialist dictators" things that are common in most governments, particularly the more authoritarian ones (but even the West is not immune to them). Corporate interests controls much of the government in the US, Canada, UK, etc. Yes you can vote out one Corporate drone and install another...perhaps he will be in the pocket of different corporations, but he won't really be any different (ergo the similarities in the actual policies of Bush & Obama). And just to clarify, Russia, Cuba, China, etc. are [were] fascist states drapped in socialist rhetoric, pretty much where Chavez seems to be headed as well. His being ostensibly a socialist isn't an issue, his converting Venezuela into another tinpot dictatorship is.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 10:58:35 AM)
The Earth's just crawling with right-wing dictators, is it? [8\|] These socialists like Chavez, they rape and pillage a country's industry, use some of the proceeds to buy votes from the ignorant masses, and get filthy rich themselves off the power and riches as the rest as their nation sinks into the horrible morass that their dictatorship usually brings them. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: I wouldn't doubt that at all, such divide-and-conquer strategies are quite common among power hungry socialist elites such as Hugo Chavez. Or any other power hungry types the world over...left wing, right wing, socialist, fascist...they all use these tactics where racial tension exists for them to exploit.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:03:47 AM)
wait a minute, I thought this was about Chavez, Sanity, not about your typical american politicians.

Termyn8or -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:03:49 AM)
Are you talking about the US Sanity, or Venezuela ? What you say is certainly true here. I have always liked Chavez ever since I heard he told the US to go fuck off. If the worst they say about Chavez is true, it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Someone mentioned outlawing oppostiton media, well do you remember a newspaper called The Spotlight ? No matter what your opinion of the content, The Spotlight's demise was court ordered. OK, they really shouldn't have run that article about phrenology, but a court ordered demise, with the owners forbidden by the court to use any proceeds from the mandatory liquidation to start another such publication ? Yes this happened in the US. You were free not to buy the paper, not to read it, but then at one time you were free to buy it and read it. No wonder they hate our freedom and democracy. They've seen it in action. Now the associates of The Spotlight are involved in another publication known as the American Free Press. They come under fire for being "racist" and I don't agree with their stance on alot of things, but again you are free not to buy it or read it. But if they are the knuckle dragging war mongers, why did the JDL threaten them in an open letter including the statement "we know who you are" ? Also, I double dare anyone on this forum to try to get an FCC license for a TV station. You are constanly spoon fed half truths about anyone, especially those who will not play ball with our happy "family". You either join the family or the won't sell you ink for your own printing press. Who are they ? How many guesses do you want ? Hint : they cooperate. T

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:17:33 AM)
Good observation! Bravo. Many of our typical American politicians closely resemble Hugo Chavez, Ron, you've hit on my main point. When discussing the one you could just as well be discussing the other. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail wait a minute, I thought this was about Chavez, Sanity, not about your typical american politicians.

Arpig -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:18:00 AM)
The Earth's just crawling with right-wing dictators, is it? Omar el-Bashir, Than Shwe, Robert Mugabe, the Saudi King (Abdullah I think), Khameni, Obiang...there's just a little starter list. Basically my point is that it makes little difference if a dictator draps himself in left-wing rhetoric or right-wing...there is no real difference between them. The only real difference between Hitler & Stalin was the lies they wrapped their policies in...the bullshit rationale, other than that the results were the same (though Stalin did prefer to let nature take care of his racial enemies by exposure & starvation as opposed to Hitler who took a more typically German technological approach). The political continuum is not a straight line but rather a circle...go far enough left or far enough right and you end up in the same place: totalitarianism, and the only difference is one of colouring and flavour.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:18:38 AM)
An FCC license isn't essential to getting your political message out Termy, and whats being outlawed in Venezuela is the opposition message itself.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:28:24 AM)
again, just like america where there is a 'provable' left wing media bias.......or not. Oh, yeah, thats right, given the chance to prove the left wing media bias, the best of breed answer was that fox was entertainment. Ergo id est, there is no right wing media. You dont have to go to wiki to understand the flaw in that logic. Lets see, Bush was elected and we didnt go to war, or sanction him, he did what he did. (Yeah, and so on with Obama for the other side...) we elect someone else or something. Chavez was elected, why do we even give a fuck, it doesnt mean anything...lets try to put some perspective to this, rather than the armchair this is the only thing that counts talking points, aren't we building bases and making some heavy military-industrial complex deals down in south america to sort of keep up with the joneses (in this case the joneses being chinese?) Think about it, sort it out, meditate on it....maybe you can glue this together folks. Action, reaction, deed, consequence.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:32:53 AM)
The most reliable means to go from a democracy (or a republic) to a dictatorship is through the promise of socialism. When the socialism fails the tyrant-to-be typically blames it all on the capitalists and claims he needs more and more power in order to provide all the free gravy thats always just around the bend. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig The Earth's just crawling with right-wing dictators, is it? Omar el-Bashir, Than Shwe, Robert Mugabe, the Saudi King (Abdullah I think), Khameni, Obiang...there's just a little starter list. Basically my point is that it makes little difference if a dictator draps himself in left-wing rhetoric or right-wing...there is no real difference between them. The only real difference between Hitler & Stalin was the lies they wrapped their policies in...the bullshit rationale, other than that the results were the same (though Stalin did prefer to let nature take care of his racial enemies by exposure & starvation as opposed to Hitler who took a more typically German technological approach). The political continuum is not a straight line but rather a circle...go far enough left or far enough right and you end up in the same place: totalitarianism, and the only difference is one of colouring and flavour.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:37:27 AM)
And the capitalists blame it on the socialists given their reversal of fortune. It isn't like we have a plethora of governmental systems to blame each others woes on. No surprises or insights there.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:41:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The Earth's just crawling with right-wing dictators, is it? [8\|] These socialists like Chavez, they rape and pillage a country's industry, use some of the proceeds to buy votes from the ignorant masses, and get filthy rich themselves off the power and riches as the rest as their nation sinks into the horrible morass that their dictatorship usually brings them. Unfortunately, it often is a vicious cycle. If there were no poor, ignorant, and powerless to be exploited, there would be less exploitation. The USA had many decades to try to elevate the poor and ignorant indigenous people of Latin America, but we always sided with the Juntas as in Chile, Guatemala, and etc where our CIA actually precipitated the fall of popularly elected governments. We fucked up historically and now we get riled when the rooster comes back to crow at us.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:42:13 AM)
You're really trying to deny that Hugo Chavez is stifling free speech in Venezuela??? Thats common knowledge by now, Ron - quote: Is Chavez Stifling the Media? [img]http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0705/venezuela_press_0529.jpg[/img] Students skirmished with policemen across Venezuela on Monday, and continued dodging tear gas and rubber bullets on Tuesday, protesting what they called diminished press freedom. But if you were one of the many Venezuelan television viewers who don't get 24-hour news channel Globovision, you might not have seen the protests. That's because besides the station available only on pay cable outside of Caracas and Valencia, other networks barely covered the demonstrations. Channel 2 on the dial, which had been home to opposition-aligned Radio Caracas Television until Sunday, would have jumped at the chance to show the events. But the reason the students had taken to the streets was precisely to protest the government's forcing RCTV off the airwaves, at midnight Sunday, by refusing to renew its broadcast license. The country's oldest channel had been replaced by state-run TVes, which showed cartoons and old movies during the protests. Critics of President Hugo Chavez warn that when the smoke clears, the television landscape will be largely bereft of independent voices willing to criticize the government. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1626151,00.html#ixzz0cEwkEkVx quote: Chavez Declares War on Opposition Media in Venezuela CARACAS, Venezuela — As politicians in the U.S. discuss bringing back the so-called Fairness Doctrine, which would compel radio and TV stations to present both sides of any controversial issue, the question in Venezuela is far more serious: whether there can be more than one side — Hugo Chavez's side — that gets aired about anything. Addressing the nation on his weekly television show on Sunday, the Venezuelan president laid out plans for his next crusade, ordering his governors and mayors to draw up a "map of the media war" to determine which media are "in the hands of the oligarchy." Chavez said that "if it weren't for the attack, the lies, manipulation and the exaggeration" of the private media networks, the Venezuelan government would have the support of at least 80 percent of the population. Recent polls have put Chavez's popularity at a little over 50 percent. Nursing a sore throat, which doctors reportedly asked him to rest by not speaking too much, (Sunday's program lasted a mere five hours), the president told his red-clad audience that the media war is a daily conflict. "I beg you to stand up to this battle, all of you," he implored his followers. More at FOX News

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:44:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The most reliable means to go from a democracy (or a republic) to a dictatorship is through the promise of socialism. When the socialism fails the tyrant-to-be typically blames it all on the capitalists and claims he needs more and more power in order to provide all the free gravy thats always just around the bend. Sounds like an historical game plan. We had our own Hughy Long in Louisianna back in the day. Might also add, the Financial Corporations in USA are making good use of the socialistic funding they received as bailouts to enrich themselves.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:47:06 AM)
Looking back, I see that during the cold war we had to do some things that were unpleasant, its true. But what do we do, looking forward? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Unfortunately, it often is a vicious cycle. If there were no poor, ignorant, and powerless to be exploited, there would be less exploitation. The USA had many decades to try to elevate the poor and ignorant indigenous people of Latin America, but we always sided with the Juntas as in Chile, Guatemala, and etc where our CIA actually precipitated the fall of popularly elected governments. We fucked up historically and now we get riled when the rooster comes back to crow at us.

LadyEllen -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 11:59:53 AM)
Chavez is undoubtedly a bit daft in the head, but he didnt spring from nowhere. Rather he is a product of the particular peculiarities of south American socio-economic models in general and that of Venezuala in specific. A model which is deeply rooted, and requisite of some substantial roll back to bring it to anywhere near the lower levels of rigged inequality that colour our systems. His time will pass; it hopefully will have achieved by then an enduring change such that there is no going back. E

luckydawg -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:00:26 PM)
Vincent you do have a point. But another view is that by the "Monroe Doctrine" of pushing out and then keeping Europe, out of Latin America spared them from African style exploitation. Their history (meaning of Latin America, pre contact was a completely different thing, and not Latin in anyway) started with a grand theft of wealths. It could very easily be argued that Latin People have it far better (by any measure) than Sub Saharahn Africans. A large part of which was the Dividing and arming of Africa. THe Monroe Doctrine has been a bedrock principle of our Foriegn Policy for centuries. Soviet expansion, was a threat to it. Chavez flirting with China is a real threat to it. Having other Major Armies and Navies, in our hemisphere is a massive thing. That at least deserves an honest debate, if we are going to abandon.

rockspider -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:04:44 PM)
It must have become quite obvious that neither socialisme nor capitalism is the ultimative form of government. I do believe in a mix of the two systems with a strong dose of democrazy would be the ultimate system. However as everybody knows a ship cannot be sailed by democrazy. Which in reality can be said about a country as well. But then who would be the perfect leader? Well i for one would not like to charged with finding him.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:12:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You're really trying to deny that Hugo Chavez is stifling free speech in Venezuela??? Thats common knowledge by now, Ron - Dude, just when we start communicating, some agreements, some disagreements. What? Are you fuckin' stupid Sanity? Where did I even come close to saying anything akin to that? You can go around and attribute any fucktarded position to anyone you want, we allow american citizens to do it, but we also allow americans to respond with vituperation to nefarious and plainly dishonest and insincere claims. Ron

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:17:12 PM)
The biggest question as I see it is, how do you keep power hungry socialist elites from using the treasury and all the power of the central government to effectively buy themselves votes and thereby provide for themselves an ever increasing power base, until they're totally immune from any reproach whatsoever?

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:20:44 PM)
Sorry Ron, but I often have considerable trouble deciphering your gibberish. Here's the passage from the book of Ron that I was responding to: quote: quote: again, just like america where there is a 'provable' left wing media bias.......or not. Oh, yeah, thats right, given the chance to prove the left wing media bias, the best of breed answer was that fox was entertainment. Ergo id est, there is no right wing media. You dont have to go to wiki to understand the flaw in that logic.

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