RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:23:13 PM)
Sanity come on are you fucking stupid? or what? This is one of Mnots main tricks. He posted clearly disagreeing with you, but didn't actually say anything that you can hold him to. You took the bait like a straight man, pretending he was responding to the content of your post, when he wasn't. Just disagreeing with you, because you are you. Don't Feed the Trolls!!

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Vincent you do have a point. But another view is that by the "Monroe Doctrine" of pushing out and then keeping Europe, out of Latin America spared them from African style exploitation. Their history (meaning of Latin America, pre contact was a completely different thing, and not Latin in anyway) started with a grand theft of wealths. It could very easily be argued that Latin People have it far better (by any measure) than Sub Saharahn Africans. A large part of which was the Dividing and arming of Africa. THe Monroe Doctrine has been a bedrock principle of our Foriegn Policy for centuries. Soviet expansion, was a threat to it. Chavez flirting with China is a real threat to it. Having other Major Armies and Navies, in our hemisphere is a massive thing. That at least deserves an honest debate, if we are going to abandon. Dawg, I understand what you are saying but I fail to see any difference between contemporary Latinos and Africans. Both were victimized by Colonialism and both are poor. Poor is poor, no matter on which side of the Atlantic you are. I may be missing your point. Both Africans and MesoAmericans had somewhat advanced civilizations and cultures before the slave trade began. As for the Monroe Doctrine that was conveniently put on the back shelf when we made the Louisianna and Alaskan Purchases and replaced by the Doctrine of Manifest Destiny which saw us end up fighting against a two year insurrection in the Philippines in 1904 or so. We then conveniently recalled the Monroe Doctrine when the USSR tried to station missles in Cuba and Pres Ronnie decided to take out El Salvador and Nicaragua. I have a hard time agreeing with you that anyone ever took seriously the Monroe Doctrine except maybe those Latino Nations who were thinking, "Hey, who the fuck asked you to butt in?" Simon Bolivar comes to mind. Would love to have clarification of your first paragraph, Dawg.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:26:32 PM)
Right. I said that. You copied it and in context. Please point out the gibberish or unintelligible part, or mispelling that you took as Hugo Chavez, or the word free speech, or stifle or anything akin to it. Actually, don't bother. I accept you are confused, lets move on. Ron

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:30:21 PM)
Its hard when they feign intelligence sometimes though, and I thought I understood something that he wrote there for a minute or two. Yeah, my mistake. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Sanity come on are you fucking stupid? or what? This is one of Mnots main tricks. He posted clearly disagreeing with you, but didn't actually say anything that you can hold him to. You took the bait like a straight man, pretending he was responding to the content of your post, when he wasn't. Just disagreeing with you, because you are you. Don't Feed the Trolls!!

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:31:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Looking back, I see that during the cold war we had to do some things that were unpleasant, its true. But what do we do, looking forward? well, for one thing we could stop fighting the cold war which we now call the war on terror and bring our troops home, using only those necessary to keep Al Q disorganized. The rest, looking forward, is a massive economic and social problem of inequity as suggested by Lady Ellen, and I sure as hell have no solution for a near term fix. But think of all those people who would buy our goods if they had the money to do so. Others, might argue we have to keep them poor less they take our jobs. It is a conundrum. i suppose we could sort of let them develop their own economies and societies without our interference in the name of Our National Interest and Defense.

luckydawg -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:37:26 PM)
No, poor is not poor. That is a ridiculously simplistic statement. There is a huge difference between Modern Latin America and Modern Africa. (IF you see no difference, you should look harder, the Data and such is fact and common knowledge,but I can't argue with what you percieve). Which I think is partly, yet significantly due to the Monroe Doctrine. The Louisiana and Alaska Purchases, were in no way anti Monroe Doctrine, in fact the opposite. Getting Europeon troops and claims out of the Western Hemisphere, is 100% compatable with the Monroe Doctrine. Manifest Destiny doesn't conflict with the Monroe Doctrine either, in anyway. I am not aware of anytime where the Monroe Doctrine was dropped. Keeping Foriegn armies out of "Our Hemisphere" has been a goal of US policy for a very long time. IF it is time to abandon the policy, let's have a debate. Not make up silly things. I vote intervene (hopefully not having to resort to force) to prevent Major Armies and Navies from being basd in Latin America.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:45:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg No, poor is not poor. That is a ridiculously simplistic statement. There is a huge difference between Modern Latin America and Modern Africa. (IF you see no difference, you should look harder, the Data and such is fact and common knowledge,but I can't argue with what you percieve). Which I think is partly, yet significantly due to the Monroe Doctrine. The Louisiana and Alaska Purchases, were in no way anti Monroe Doctrine, in fact the opposite. Getting Europeon troops and claims out of the Western Hemisphere, is 100% compatable with the Monroe Doctrine. Manifest Destiny doesn't conflict with the Monroe Doctrine either, in anyway. I am not aware of anytime where the Monroe Doctrine was dropped. Keeping Foriegn armies out of "Our Hemisphere" has been a goal of US policy for a very long time. IF it is time to abandon the policy, let's have a debate. Not make up silly things. I vote intervene (hopefully not having to resort to force) to prevent Major Armies and Navies from being basd in Latin America. It is true, I am sometimes guilty of making simplistic statements, Dawg. But if you are impoverished, hungry, and riddled with disease, I don't see what difference a Continent makes to the humanity. As far as I know, correct me please, no one ever voted on the Monroe doctrine accept Monroe. Manifest Destiny went way beyond the Monroe Doctrine, moving from a defensive proclamation of a surrounded and threatened nation to an aggressive declaration or philosophy of one that was expanding and muscled. An entirely different mindset. I wonder how the Russians feel as we try to expand NATO to their "near abroad." Feeling a bit threatened perhaps.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:47:50 PM)
Wait a minute - the United States was also victimized by colonialism... only we quit playing that role, and through the wonders of capitalism propelled ourselves to wealth and total self sufficiency.

Moonhead -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:48:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven It's a shame, really. I like the aims of socialism. But it's been an abject failure when implemented in Argentina, Cuba, Russia... There are two drawbacks as I see it. 1. The profit motive is not used, which takes a lot of drive out of the economy. 2. A strong central government is necessary. So you have bureaucrats who don't give a crap about the economy and the welfare of the people, who are granted the power to stifle economic growth. 'Course, that's not particularly relevant here because Chavez could ruin a strong capitalist economy too. He's a strongman/buffoon. I'm not sure that socialism was a complete failure in Cuba. I wouldn't want to live there, but I do get the impression that the country's doing a lot better than it was when it was still being run by the mob. I'm also unsure how many of the country's economic problems are innate and how many are down to sanctions that have been imposed by America.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:51:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Wait a minute - the United States was also victimized by colonialism... only we quit playing that role, and through the wonders of capitalism propelled ourselves to wealth and total self sufficiency. Shall we recount who our debt is owed to and how much to deflate some of that hyperbole? Sorta come towards reality based discussion? Ron

LadyEllen -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:55:14 PM)
How was the US victimised by colonialism exactly? It owes its existence to colonialism, first by the initial settlers, then by the waves of successive immigrant populations and ultimately by way of colonising westwards. E

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:57:38 PM)
Fuck you limey!!!!! We blasted your shit back into the stone age!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Neo-con Ron.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 12:59:20 PM)
Is it no small coincidence that as we continue our long, sad, slow march towards socialism that our financial troubles grow ever more burdensome? quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Wait a minute - the United States was also victimized by colonialism... only we quit playing that role, and through the wonders of capitalism propelled ourselves to wealth and total self sufficiency. Shall we recount who our debt is owed to and how much to deflate some of that hyperbole? Sorta come towards reality based discussion? Ron

LadyEllen -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:00:11 PM)
Not at all though Ron - it was a civil war; the same people fighting one another over a disagreement as to government. Either that or it was them damnable Virginia farmers didnt want to repay what they owed to the Scottish tobacco merchants. Heaven knows what the outstanding will be on that lot by now after near on 250 years of interest and so on. Just wait till Scotland gets independence.... E

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Is it no small coincidence that as we continue our long, sad, slow march towards socialism that our financial troubles grow ever more burdensome? I was unaware that Reagan and the Bush boys were now identified as socialists, and the republicans in office when the senate and/or house was controlled by them; as well as all democrats (which I knew you would identify as socialists). I doubt GW visited venezuela, and I doubt that Reagan would remember that he did for more than 10 minutes. Thanks, didn't know that.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:11:23 PM)
No more and no less than the Mexicans, etc. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Not at all though Ron - it was a civil war; the same people fighting one another over a disagreement as to government. Either that or it was them damnable Virginia farmers didnt want to repay what they owed to the Scottish tobacco merchants. Heaven knows what the outstanding will be on that lot by now after near on 250 years of interest and so on. Just wait till Scotland gets independence.... E

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:13:34 PM)
It must be your sheer brilliance Ron, because I can't quite keep up with your logic. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I was unaware that Reagan and the Bush boys were now identified as socialists, and the republicans in office when the senate and/or house was controlled by them; as well as all democrats (which I knew you would identify as socialists). I doubt GW visited venezuela, and I doubt that Reagan would remember that he did for more than 10 minutes. Thanks, didn't know that.

luckydawg -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:15:10 PM)
Vincen, you are rather unclear as to what the Monroe doctrine was. Of course it was not voted on, its not a law, its a policy. That for centuries has been a bedrock principle of foriegn policy for the USA, despite party in power. It never was the "a defensive proclamation of a surrounded and threatened nation " That,s just nonsense.

AnimusRex -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:20:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity An all-powerful government is far worse for a population than a bevy of corporations which exist under the rule of law. Not only is such a government the corporation, but it is also the law. Interesting statement, one that I find much to agree with. But since the real point of this thread is lessons learned for the US, it makes me think of this- in most of South and Central America, there is and never was any such thing as a "free market"; what existed was an oligarchy of a few powerful coporations, usually connected by family ties to the government. This sort of corruption and abuse of power is what led to the election of Chavez in Venezuela, and Morales in Bolivia. So when I look at our situation today, I see corporations like Goldman Sachs that have a stranglehold over our Treasury and financial powers; I see how even health care insurance reform was crafted and tailored by and for the interests of the pharmaceutical and health insurance corporations; I see how even the military is relying on and under influence of, the military contractors who are supposed to be serving it; I see local governments appropriate land and give it to influential developers; In short, I don't see any "free market"- I see an increasingly tight-knit group of power centers that manipulate and control the levers of government power in a corrupt and incestuous relationship. The Venezualan people spent generations under the oligarchs; and under the oligarchs they learned that government is simply a tool for dispensing power and favors; they learned that the economy is nothing more than a system rigged to benefit those in power. Whenever capitalism has been killed, the smoking gun is always in the hand of the corporations themselves.

mnottertail -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/10/2010 1:22:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity It must be your sheer brilliance Ron, because I can't quite keep up with your logic. For this thread, our financial woes are due to our long slow march to socialism, beforetimes it was due to our lack of fiscal conservatism. Raise taxes if necessary, cut spending, starting with military, find and destroy inefficiencies in our spending and what we spend on.... socialism and fiscal conservation are not at all mutually exclusive. Hell, even the chinese have a few bucks. The Russkies, maybe others.

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