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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 11:23:30 AM   
AsmodaisSin


Posts: 320
Joined: 7/28/2009
From: NOVA
Status: offline 		i disagree completely with the op.

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 11:25:03 AM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		@Needtouse, the proclivities of american police are somewhat well known, the swiss....I place rather more faith in.
German police don't have particularly good associations of course, but in reality they seem to be reasonable these days.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 11:31:53 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

Such a system of variable fines must fall foul of the EU Human Rights legislation (Switzerland isnt in the EU) as above

Article 20; everyone is equal before the law
Article 21.1; no discrimination based on (amongst other things) social origins and property
Article 49.3; severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence

My reading of these articles makes it clear that no account may be taken of someone's status in deciding penalties in the way described.

E





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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:05:00 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

Such a system of variable fines must fall foul of the EU Human Rights legislation (Switzerland isnt in the EU) as above

Article 20; everyone is equal before the law
Article 21.1; no discrimination based on (amongst other things) social origins and property
Article 49.3; severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence

My reading of these articles makes it clear that no account may be taken of someone's status in deciding penalties in the way described.

E






...you could use the same argument to suggest that progressive tax rates are similary illegal, leading to the only legal tax being flat rate. Think that is what was intended?

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:10:43 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		I'd say they aren't illegal. The fines must be proportionate to the offense, speeding risks killing people so ya can basically charge what you like. As the EU comes up though...am I the only Brit around here considering voting UKIP?

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:19:17 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Proportionate to the offence, not proportionate to the offender.

E

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:22:24 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Tax policy is something determined in the national interest by the choice of the electorate at polling time. Justice policy likewise; it would however be difficult I think to argue that it is in the national interest to fine some people more than others because of their financial standing, especially when this is specifically prohibited under 49.3

E

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:27:19 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I'd say they aren't illegal. The fines must be proportionate to the offense, speeding risks killing people so ya can basically charge what you like. As the EU comes up though...am I the only Brit around here considering voting UKIP?

I hope so.

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:29:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I find it hard to give a shit about this either way.
Now when they start imposing punitive and huge fines on shriners driving those stupid go karts, that I could get behind. I hate those stupid fez wearing cunts...


Those fez wearers do some damn good works, Moonhead.

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:54:06 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		They do. They also raise a hell of a lot more money than they spend on said good works, and seem a bit reticent on talking about where the rest of it goes.
(I was joking, though. As a evil European socialist, I've never encountered any of the idiots, or their go karts. Just remember seeing them on a Dead Kennedys record sleeve...)

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 12:59:43 PM   
AsmodaisSin


Posts: 320
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From: NOVA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Proportionate to the offence, not proportionate to the offender.

E


Amen.


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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 1:57:15 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

As the EU comes up though...am I the only Brit around here considering voting UKIP?


Probably, most would see UKIP as either too right wing, or a split from mainstream Conservatism. Just as the Social Democrats were a split to the Labour vote. I feel the problem we have is all three main parties have no place to go with the economy, or Afghanistan. As with Obama following Bush, whoever gets in will get the poisoned chalice. No room to manouver on tax, with reducing HMG`s spending deficit being essential. I suspect very little of the manifestos we hear, will actually be carried out, but whats new.

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 2:05:09 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'd disagree that there's nothing to be done about Afghanistan: we could just leave. Won't happen, though.

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 2:08:02 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Just leave ? And let the Taliban and Al Qaida reform ? Hardly sensible in my opinion. We got in and wont get out until the situation is stable in my opinion.

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 2:22:35 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Just leave ? And let the Taliban and Al Qaida reform ? Hardly sensible in my opinion. We got in and wont get out until the situation is stable in my opinion.

And we're inconveniencing the Taliban and Al Queda by being there how? The invasion of Afghanistan (and Iraq, come to that) is the best PR job they've had in years. The only reason we're in there in the first place is because Blair was desperate to impress his new mate Dubya. That's hardly a good reason to keep pissing lives away on an occupation that isn't doing us any good.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 3:06:41 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		@ Polite sub, I'm actually probably slightly to the left of centre....if the much mixed left/right thing is thought to simply be higher taxes&spending/lower taxes and spending......just don't like being in the EU where it's headed atm.

Although they are restricted in spending, I think it gives....possibly forces...the parties to diverge in what taxes they'll increase, inheritance tax being a good example. I'm also paying possibly more attention than most to talks of electoral reform, the splintering of the parties makes FPTP look increasingly unfair....although if it goes to the point that every election results in coalition (or even unity) government I think that could have good effects.

The cons talk a lot about direct democracy, especially in local government...something I strongly approve of...but want to keep things as FPTP, libs want proportional representation, which I think'd be terrible....labour talk about 1st alternative, which is probably my favourite of the 3. Where I live though.....cons safe seat, so any vote will merely be a show of support for a party....and UKIP are realistically a single issue party, which I agree with.


@Moonhead,
"And we're inconveniencing the Taliban and Al Queda by being there how?"
Good point, other than having conquered most of the nation and killed a lot of them they've probably barely noticed.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 3:10:18 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody
@Moonhead,
"And we're inconveniencing the Taliban and Al Queda by being there how?"
Good point, other than having conquered most of the nation and killed a lot of them they've probably barely noticed.

They're recruiting a lot faster than they're being killed, very little of the nation has been conquered, and there aren't even enough troops there to do an effective job of controlling the territories that have been claimed.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 3:12:14 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		For those of you who disagree with the OP and the linked story - do you then think that every taxpayer should pay a flat amount of income tax without regard to their income amount? If two people earn a living and we tax them differently based on their income then why not a system where if two people break the speed limit we penalize them differently based on their income?

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 3:15:40 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

Such a system of variable fines must fall foul of the EU Human Rights legislation (Switzerland isnt in the EU) as above

Article 20; everyone is equal before the law
Article 21.1; no discrimination based on (amongst other things) social origins and property
Article 49.3; severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence

My reading of these articles makes it clear that no account may be taken of someone's status in deciding penalties in the way described.



If the penalty is a flat percentage across the board it is arguable that it is being fairly administered. The flat rate system is actually unfair because it penalizes the less wealthy to a greater extent based on percentages of income.


_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich - 1/12/2010 3:16:34 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

For those of you who disagree with the OP and the linked story - do you then think that every taxpayer should pay a flat amount of income tax without regard to their income amount? If two people earn a living and we tax them differently based on their income then why not a system where if two people break the speed limit we penalize them differently based on their income?

Apparently that's socialism and unconstitutional. Not sure how that argument works, but it seems to be one of the American right's stock lines to rebuff almost anything.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 40
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