RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing???

RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 7:45:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I am going to completely ignore all of the stupid melodrama and political bullshit on this thread and simple reply to the OP. Based upon what I do know about earth quakes and weather patterns over the centuries I can say this. I do not understand how anyone can bring up the earth quake in Haiti and say "see the weather/climate really is changing!!!!! As most reasonably intelligent people know, earth quakes are simply caused by the shifts of the earth plates. They is nothing in our climate that affects plate shift. The only real connection you can place between tectonic plates and climate is the effects a massive volcanic erruption can, and has in earth's history, have on the climate. The weather/climate is a constantly evolving thing, just as the earth's surface is also constantly evolving. We cannot press some magic button or stop using gas and stop the shifting of tectonic plates on the earth's surface. So, while what happened in Haiti is tragic indeed, the earth quake itself was not avoidable. It is even questionable what affects we can have on climate change. I am sure most of this has been brought up somewhere in the freak show I started to read, in posts prior to mine, then saw the usual political culprits and declined. What you have said here is certainly worth saying again. It was remarked upon by an earlier poster. For some reason many posters keep dancing around what is pretty sound science. Although, Panda did bring up research on the possible effects of ice melt and ice accumulation. I find that pretty far reaching (although I cannot dispute it) when compared to what is known about the movement of tectonic plates. Heard a member of the National Geoligical Survey on TV this morning reaffirming we can predict earthquake potential zones and build sturctures with some degree of resistence to tumbling, but we cannot predict when an earthquake will occur. That, he said, is the "holy grail" of geophysics. Anyone interested in a fascinating account of the San Francisco earthquake of the early 1900s which includes details of the seismic movements and the human events might wish to read this book A Crack in the Edge of the World by Simon Winchester. The author details the amazing link between the California siesmic zone with those in Alaska and Yellowstone. If you are unaware, Yellowstone is a volcanic caldera remaining from an eruption some 300,000 years ago. Anyday now, Wyoming, anyday. (wiseass comment but very real possibility for it to explode again. The same for the New Madrid fault in the midwest)

luckydawg -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 11:39:58 AM)
La tigeress, actually the movement of the continents (which is part of Plate techtonics) changes ocean currents, which has a massive effect on Global Climate. That is pretty much solid accepted science.

vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 12:06:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg La tigeress, actually the movement of the continents (which is part of Plate techtonics) changes ocean currents, which has a massive effect on Global Climate. That is pretty much solid accepted science. Maybe true, Dawg, but the plates are moving at incredibly slow speeds - millimeters or centimeters per year. My guess (only) is it not unlikely that such effects will be seen in any one or several generations or several dozen generations?

luckydawg -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 12:53:45 PM)
Its absolutly true. No one who accepts plate techtonics disputes it. I think the effects change over hundreds of thousands to millions of years, not generations. But the existing climate is heavily shaped by the current position of the moving plates.

thompsonx -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 1:01:00 PM)
quote: But the existing climate is heavily shaped by the current position of the moving plates. Is there anything else that heavily shapes the existing climate? HST

Loki45 -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 1:29:34 PM)
quote: What is my position on global warming? Loki- do you know? Nope, and I don't give a rat's ass. I don't keep up with the positions of the tinfoil hat crowd. quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy And another thing my dear lady. From now on you will address me as "Sir". I am making a note on this, and placing it in your permanent file. Another example of your lunacy so early? No wonder you're single....you can't tell a man from a woman.

pahunkboy -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 2:59:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: What is my position on global warming? Loki- do you know? Nope, and I don't give a rat's ass. I don't keep up with the positions of the tinfoil hat crowd. quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy And another thing my dear lady. From now on you will address me as "Sir". I am making a note on this, and placing it in your permanent file. Another example of your lunacy so early? No wonder you're single....you can't tell a man from a woman. I am sorry that you experience your rats azz. It sounds like you are a man trapped in a woman's body.

Loki45 -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 3:17:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I am sorry that you experience your rats azz. It sounds like you are a man trapped in a woman's body. Your tinfoil hat is hindering your brain function.

pahunkboy -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 4:23:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I am sorry that you experience your rats azz. It sounds like you are a man trapped in a woman's body. Your tinfoil hat is hindering your brain function. Tell me- would there be silver in my tin foil hat?

vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 6:30:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Its absolutly true. No one who accepts plate techtonics disputes it. I think the effects change over hundreds of thousands to millions of years, not generations. But the existing climate is heavily shaped by the current position of the moving plates. If so, the current positions occured long before the Industrial Revolution and green house gases. Oh shit. Do you suppose that puts a crimp in the whole anthro-GW theory? Now, see the trouble you've created, Dawg? lol!

vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 6:34:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: But the existing climate is heavily shaped by the current position of the moving plates. Is there anything else that heavily shapes the existing climate? HST Maybe the ocean currents, T, and maybe sunspots, maybe the tilt of the earth in its path around the sun, Maybe Ra the sun god, maybe too many cow farts. Maybe not enough virgins sacrificed. Really, who the fuck knows? Everybody seems to have their own truth. [:D]

KMsAngel -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 7:37:29 PM)
without having read through all the pages, is the biggest tragedy not just the earthquake but the after effects? the infrastructure that is non existent, the inability of aid workers to GET to Port au Prince? and etc etc etc. i don't watch tv so am just catching snippets via the net, but even then, i'm horrified at the tragedy in terms of people not weather.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 8:15:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Although, Panda did bring up research on the possible effects of ice melt and ice accumulation. I find that pretty far reaching (although I cannot dispute it) when compared to what is known about the movement of tectonic plates. You should check it out, Vincent. I know you have a strong interest in the sciences, and I think you'd find it quite intriguing. Since this thread started, I've been doing a lot more reading, and there's even more supporting data than I realized. They've found strong evidence of seasonal cycles in the eruptive patterns of Alaskan volcanoes, and a 20% increase in volcanic eruptions worldwide during the winter months. I really don't see why anyone would think it's far-fetched. Tectonic plates are in constant tension, with almost incomprehensible forces locked in a precarious balance, just waiting to rip loose. They've got to let go sometime, and having billions of tons of ice and snow (or additional sea depth) added to or removed from their overburden in a short period of time seems as good a provocation as any. Portions of the North American continent have rebounded hundreds of meters since the glaciers melted, and any time you have a land mass that size moving upwards or downwards that much, it's going to transfer a tremendous amount of stress onto those plate junctures. To me, it's a no-brainer.

MzMia -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 8:52:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Although, Panda did bring up research on the possible effects of ice melt and ice accumulation. I find that pretty far reaching (although I cannot dispute it) when compared to what is known about the movement of tectonic plates. You should check it out, Vincent. I know you have a strong interest in the sciences, and I think you'd find it quite intriguing. Since this thread started, I've been doing a lot more reading, and there's even more supporting data than I realized. They've found strong evidence of seasonal cycles in the eruptive patterns of Alaskan volcanoes, and a 20% increase in volcanic eruptions worldwide during the winter months. I really don't see why anyone would think it's far-fetched. Tectonic plates are in constant tension, with almost incomprehensible forces locked in a precarious balance, just waiting to rip loose. They've got to let go sometime, and having billions of tons of ice and snow (or additional sea depth) added to or removed from their overburden in a short period of time seems as good a provocation as any. Portions of the North American continent have rebounded hundreds of meters since the glaciers melted, and any time you have a land mass that size moving upwards or downwards that much, it's going to transfer a tremendous amount of stress onto those plate junctures. To me, it's a no-brainer. Thank you for sharing this with us Panda. Many of the connections we are discussing, fall under scientific investigations. Many of the hard core facts {that so many live and die by} may not come out for 50-100 years. Some of us are able to at least "consider" possibilities that may exist, easier than other people. I love a healthy debate, and I enjoy hearing different points of view. The main points of view I tend to dismiss are the judgemental "ONLY one way, one truth, idea or possibility" people who feel it is their duty to beat us over the head with "their absolutes and their truths". The older I get, I discover life is full of less and less absolute truths. It's sometimes called having an "open mind" and "thinking outside of the box". Some people only believe what the "experts" tell them or what they discover in books or on the news. Other people are capable of considering possibilities that may not be spelled out. Very few people are visionaries, most are sheep. I will still say, "The weather patterns have been strange the past 10 years, we have a lot of extreme weather, record breaking weather, natural disaters, and record breaking diasters. Thanks for a great discussion. [;)]

vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/16/2010 9:25:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Although, Panda did bring up research on the possible effects of ice melt and ice accumulation. I find that pretty far reaching (although I cannot dispute it) when compared to what is known about the movement of tectonic plates. You should check it out, Vincent. I know you have a strong interest in the sciences, and I think you'd find it quite intriguing. Since this thread started, I've been doing a lot more reading, and there's even more supporting data than I realized. They've found strong evidence of seasonal cycles in the eruptive patterns of Alaskan volcanoes, and a 20% increase in volcanic eruptions worldwide during the winter months. I really don't see why anyone would think it's far-fetched. Tectonic plates are in constant tension, with almost incomprehensible forces locked in a precarious balance, just waiting to rip loose. They've got to let go sometime, and having billions of tons of ice and snow (or additional sea depth) added to or removed from their overburden in a short period of time seems as good a provocation as any. Portions of the North American continent have rebounded hundreds of meters since the glaciers melted, and any time you have a land mass that size moving upwards or downwards that much, it's going to transfer a tremendous amount of stress onto those plate junctures. To me, it's a no-brainer. I will look into it if you will be kind enough to give me the link again, Panda. It seems reasonable on the face of it. However, the last great ice melt occurred 15,000 years ago. What is left of the North American/EurAsian ice sheet seems insignificant compared to that event. But I am always open to a new idea. Thank you.

mikeslovinglady -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/18/2010 11:17:37 AM)
its HAARP. not voodoo, not weather

vincentML -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/18/2010 2:15:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Actually, a connection between climate and vulcanism/tectonic activity has been credibly discussed for many years. I recall reading about it as far back as the mid-80s, and there was some pretty good data backing it up. The idea was that the weight of ice packs and snow cover on continental plates exerts pressure on magma pockets below the crust, causing a slight but measurable increase in eruptive activity during winter months in the northern hemisphere, and especially during ice ages. Or increased sea levels might exert greater pressure on tectonic plates beneath the oceans, causing them to shift and deform. Well, kudos to you, Panda, a tip of the hat and thank you for this new information. It will teach me not to scoff. I accept that the hypothesis is being considered. The problem is that the science is dependent upon simulation with computer models. I have a difficult time accepting that as science of cause and effect. Perhaps, my science education was too long ago. I cannot shake loose of "garbage in, garbage out" when it comes to computer simulation. Sort of like "there are lies, damn lies, and computer models which cannot be field tested." Here is an article in National Geographic for anyone interested. But let me point out they are talking about massive ice melt that occured at the end of the last Ice Age, which is nothing like what we have experienced today as far as I know. Furthermore, I don't think the Haiti fault is near any recent and sudden ice melt nor as far as I know has there been any extreme rise in the ocean level recently. If anything, I am speculating, Haiti is victim of the changes made by the growth of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the widening of the Atlantic. There are something like thirty plates I think. We would have to see a map of the plates and fault lines to even begin to guess at the cause of this tragedy. The U.S. National Geological Survey will probably give us a report in short order. Melting Ice Sheets Can Cause Earthquakes, Study Finds

MzMia -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/18/2010 5:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Actually, a connection between climate and vulcanism/tectonic activity has been credibly discussed for many years. I recall reading about it as far back as the mid-80s, and there was some pretty good data backing it up. The idea was that the weight of ice packs and snow cover on continental plates exerts pressure on magma pockets below the crust, causing a slight but measurable increase in eruptive activity during winter months in the northern hemisphere, and especially during ice ages. Or increased sea levels might exert greater pressure on tectonic plates beneath the oceans, causing them to shift and deform. Well, kudos to you, Panda, a tip of the hat and thank you for this new information. It will teach me not to scoff. I accept that the hypothesis is being considered. The problem is that the science is dependent upon simulation with computer models. I have a difficult time accepting that as science of cause and effect. Perhaps, my science education was too long ago. I cannot shake loose of "garbage in, garbage out" when it comes to computer simulation. Sort of like "there are lies, damn lies, and computer models which cannot be field tested." Here is an article in National Geographic for anyone interested. But let me point out they are talking about massive ice melt that occured at the end of the last Ice Age, which is nothing like what we have experienced today as far as I know. Furthermore, I don't think the Haiti fault is near any recent and sudden ice melt nor as far as I know has there been any extreme rise in the ocean level recently. If anything, I am speculating, Haiti is victim of the changes made by the growth of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the widening of the Atlantic. There are something like thirty plates I think. We would have to see a map of the plates and fault lines to even begin to guess at the cause of this tragedy. The U.S. National Geological Survey will probably give us a report in short order. Melting Ice Sheets Can Cause Earthquakes, Study Finds Thank you so much vincent and Panda, very interesting indeed! It is amazing that so many people in this lifestyle are so often small and narrow minded. I don't see anything wrong with being open to the possibility that the weather and "natural disasters" can be influenced by a variety of factors {including the actions of human's}. [;)]

Aneirin -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/18/2010 6:14:41 PM)
The only thing that has changed since the industrial revolution is technology, with every day that passes, new ground breaking (no pun intended) technology is born. People are now able to travel anywhere on this globe in relative safety and speed, something that was simply not available to those of the past. With the increase, ease and availability of rapid travel has come methods of recording data and even beaming data across the world in seconds or fractions of seconds.With all these changes in technology, the world's people have never been better educated to the far corners of the world as they have now, we can even watch events as they happen half a globe away. The world has become a much smaller place and with this has come a new worry besides the capability of weapons. The new worry is how what we see can be made to show something it might not be, what we view might be totally innocent, but those with the need can manipulate the explanation of what we see. Theories can be provided and those theories backed up by suitable imagery and science made to fit. The more one sees of the same thing, the more one is likely to shift their thought into line with the agenda, we as people can be easily manipulated by those who desire our support, be that for recognition, money, power or whatever political expediency. As to what the planet does, our increased technology, is at last allowing us to catch a glimpse of a tiny fraction of it's continuous action, we, that is humanity simply do not know much else beyond theory and as theories are not absolutes, they are subject to revision, they can be right, wrong or anything in between, and even later when the damage is done found to be incorrect. Personally, I would have more faith in the scientific theories, if the period from the industrial revolution to the present, was the period of the least of our technical expertise and understanding. People are arrogant.

lazarus1983 -> RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the weather is changing??? (1/18/2010 6:23:38 PM)
On January 31st, 1906, an earthquake in Ecuador and Colombia of about 8.8 magnitude on the Richter scale killed about 2,000. Sixteen days later there was a large Caribbean quake, followed five days later by one in the Caucusus, and on March 17 by one that killed 1,228 on the island of Formosa. On April 6, a ten-day eruption of the volcano Vesuvius began with rocks blown forty thousand feet into the air over Naples. Two days after Vesuvius subsided, San Francisco was knocked down, and twenty-six hundred acres of it were then devoured by three days of fires. About 3,000 San Franciscans died then, four months before a Chilean quake killed 2,000. Natural disasters occuring relatively close to each other is nothing new. It doesn't necessarily point to climate change, it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. Sometimes it happens because it happens. Unfortunately that doesn't stop religious zealots from mobilizing and claiming it was Jeebus's wrath or some such. In Lisbon in 1755 after an earthquake killed sixty thousand, priests would wander the ruins, selecting at random those they believed guilty of heresy and were to blame for annoying the Divine, who in turn had brought about the earthquake. Those deemed guilty were hung on the spot. In 1883 when Krakatoa erupted, it fueled the growth of an extremist strain of Islam, hellbent on purging society if impurities that displeased god. That group has recently been heard from twice in Bali terrorist attacks. Luckily there are those that identify with organized religions that actually help instead of simply point the finger and kill.

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