quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

*please note - this post is written as "you" the general you (not to anyone in particular).  Also, although you ask this question to "dominant" women and to men attracted to them, I have responded to the question as to anyone - people in general.

Hello All,
Hello Carrie,

Too independent - yes, there is such a thing.  When it causes someone distress or is getting in the way of living their life as they wish, then yes it is possible.  The fact that you are asking this question would suggest that on some level you are considering whether it is an issue.  (Not saying it IS, just saying that it is something you are curious about).

All too often, our USA, individual-driven, capitalistic mindset formed society tells us we can have it all, be it all, do it all.  Well that's just not true.  We are pushed to have willpower (in ourselves) to take control (by ourselves), just do it (by ourselves).  While this part of our culture can be freeing, it can also be stifling.  It ignores the fact that people are social creatures, people NEED each other, people are interdependent (whether we wish to admit it or not).

Agreed!  It's that who process of understanding by being interdependent you are losing your independence...just allowing it to grow and develop.


Take for example the food you eat.  *I choose this example because it is something we all must have*.  You independently buy it at the grocery store.  You independently work your job to have the money to buy it.  You independently cook it and serve it and enjoy it.  You independently clean up the dishes.  Very independent.  Right? Mmmmm not really.  What of the farmer who grows the food?  The stock person who moves it from the box to the shelf?  The cashier?  The persons who built the car you drive to get you to and from the store?  The person who put the stove into your house?  Built the house for that matter... the person who made the pan and dishes you use, pressed the oil that you cook with, gathered the salt and the herbs?  Suddenly, all these people have touched your simple little dinner, they have all contributed.  Whether you wish to believe it, you are not in fact independent.  We are all interdependent whether we admit it or not.  Independence is an illusion.

Ohhh, you couldn't have chosen a better example...for me atleast!  However, I don't see independence as an illusion...just a step on the road towards a goal.

The thing is, in this society, we are encouraged to believe the illusion of independence and to buy into our own importance.  What we have been taught is to look out for number one!  Be the captain of your own ship!  Do your own thing!  We have been taught to NOT TRUST others to care for us, to be honest, to help.  We have been taught that we should trust only ourselves (If you want to get something done, do it yourself).  Bullshit.  We are a part of society, groups, communities.  We are interdependent - emotionally, physically, intellectually.

This is true and something that can take a long time to acknowledge.

The question becomes not about independence, but about relationships.  Who is worthy and has proven themselves to be trusting enough that one can be interdependent with them?  That is a whole other ball game.  It is a question we are not encouraged to ask or to probe or to have high standards about.  We are burned over and over again until we buy into the "independence" illusion.  We are not encouraged to have high expectations of others, to believe in them, to hold them to their word... and our world gets smaller and smaller.  And cynicism worms its way into our lives.

True, how many times have we heard, even here on the forums, people telling others to not have too many expectations. 

It is in requiring others to be honorable that we find out who is worthy of our interdependence.  Because we don't as a society hold people to standards, our world is becoming more and more fractured and broken. Your question is merely a symptom of that brokenness (imo).  There is in fact NOT a possibility of being too independent - not the way our society is set up anyway.  There is, however, the possibility of buying into society's illusion and finding dissonance there in opposition with one's own humanity.

In the end, too independent, to me, seems like a way of saying "I have not found people trustworthy."  And that says that one needs to set high standards, expect - even demand - them, and walk away if they are not met.   And the day will come when the standards are in fact met and in that moment true interdependence can be experienced.

Again...agreed!

An excellent thread, excellent question.

Best,
sunshine

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

All too often, our USA, individual-driven, capitalistic mindset formed society tells us we can have it all, be it all, do it all.  Well that's just not true.  We are pushed to have willpower (in ourselves) to take control (by ourselves), just do it (by ourselves).  While this part of our culture can be freeing, it can also be stifling.  It ignores the fact that people are social creatures, people NEED each other, people are interdependent (whether we wish to admit it or not).

Take for example the food you eat.  *I choose this example because it is something we all must have*.  You independently buy it at the grocery store.  You independently work your job to have the money to buy it.  You independently cook it and serve it and enjoy it.  You independently clean up the dishes.  Very independent.  Right? Mmmmm not really.  What of the farmer who grows the food?  The stock person who moves it from the box to the shelf?  The cashier?  The persons who built the car you drive to get you to and from the store?  The person who put the stove into your house?  Built the house for that matter... the person who made the pan and dishes you use, pressed the oil that you cook with, gathered the salt and the herbs?  Suddenly, all these people have touched your simple little dinner, they have all contributed.  Whether you wish to believe it, you are not in fact independent.  We are all interdependent whether we admit it or not.  Independence is an illusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The thing is..men like to feel needed.

I think people in general like to feel needed.

The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life.

I've run across this numerous times.

My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him.

There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

I took Carrie's post to mean independent as free from another person's authority or support in a personal relationship.


On that basis I see nothing wrong with independence whatsoever. In fact, I think it's important for a dominant female to be independent in that way. The thing that's important to me is she doesn't confuse independent with aloofness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

We like to feel wanted and needed both regardless of our roles.

Indeed...this is healthy, in my opinion.

I know where the OP is standing in part because I've always struggled with letting people do things for me or needing people to do things for me. Asking, demanding, ordering, oh, that was fairly easy but admitting I could really use some help required a philosophical and mental adjustment for me that we are talking about in the book we are working on.

Excellent point...especially the underlined part.  I'm looking forward to your book and I hope you let us here on CM know when it's available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

I took Carrie's post to mean independent as free from another person's authority or support in a personal relationship.


On that basis I see nothing wrong with independence whatsoever. In fact, I think it's important for a dominant female to be independent in that way. The thing that's important to me is she doesn't confuse independent with aloofness.

That last part, the underlined sentence, is something I, personally, have gotten mixed messages about from submissive men. "I want you to not need me but I still want to be needed" is something I've been told which, to be honest, makes no sense to me.  I think many men like the idea of an aloof Mistress but when faced with it in a LTR, they balk. The old "be careful what you wish for" saying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The thing is..men like to feel needed.

I think people in general like to feel needed.

The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life.

I've run across this numerous times.

My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him.

There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- FR -

I skimmed the answers and saw a mix of Yes and No. I'm going to say maybe. And the reason is that the word "Too" is very subjective. Too independant for who? For yourself, for them? Of course Too independant can exist for someone, it's all a question of equilibrium.

When I was younger, I was so independant that I did not let anyone get close to me. I've been accused of this many times. It is most definitely a defense mechanism, a guard to not get hurt. But it also drove some amazing people away.

A very simple example is that I would never, ever let a man pay my way. I was a strong independant woman. I was once told by a man that I liked very much that he couldn't see me anymore because I took away the pleasure he had of doing nice things for me. That really knocked me out and got me thinking long and hard about what was important to me.

I think what you need is an exercise of self-reflection. Has your independance driven away people who you wished would have stayed?

If your answer is no, that those who left just were too insecure to handle you, then fine, you're not too independant.

But if your answer is yes, take a look to see where you might soften up the edges just a little. There is no reason that you might not, sometimes with someone you care and trust, let yourself be just a wee bit vulnerable :-)

- LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I think the point that I'm making is that being "too independent" can, if you go about it the wrong way, become "control freak" and not in a dominating way... It's all in the definition the person ascribes to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnimus
I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnimus

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The thing is..men like to feel needed.

I think people in general like to feel needed.

The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life.

I've run across this numerous times.

My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him.

There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme.

I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnimus
I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me.

The problem with this is many men feel sorta lost if you don't need them. They're used to the whole breadwinner scenario where the man brought home the money, the man took care of the house, etc..and many men feel that if you don't need that then you don't need them. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that men feel a little intimidated if you don't need them.

I know with the younger generation of men and women though that these views are changing radically. It's something I'm finding very difficult to grasp with my adult child and her generation of dating.

But for those of us who are older there's still the traditional roles that men and women are still up against.

So if you really find that being "too independent" is complicating your life, try looking at it from the other side and try to make him feel more comfortable..let him feel needed and let yourself be helped. There's nothing at all wrong with this imo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't view that as a problem of being too independent but one of you being not open to emotional vulnerability. Through the death of one parent and the problems of another afterwards you learned that to be emotionally vulnerable meant you would be badly hurt. Thus you closed yourself off from being hurt by not getting emotionally involved.

The problem here is that most people want and need their partners to be as emotionally vulnerable, as much in love, as they themselves are. Otherwise the risk is too great.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
It varies depending on the situations..I think it's possible for anyone to be too independent if it leads to emotional and physical elusiveness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

~For the men…Are you turned off by an overly independent woman? Why or why not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I think people saying you or anyone is too independent, is another way of saying they:
a. cannot keep up with you
b. are intimidated by you
c. are insecure
d. you have rejected them and they cannot figure out what to say other than "you are not very sub/Dom/real/etc.
e. need to assuage their own ego by having you be more dependent on them

There is nothing wrong with a woman being independent. She can still be dominant or submissive or a switch or any permutation thereof.

Independence is the ability to think for oneself, take care of oneself and be responsible for oneself. It means you take ownership for yourself.

You can still belong to someone else, have someone belong to you and share the joys and challenges of a relationship.

Independence is not mutually exclusive with needing someone.