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Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/23/2006 11:36:42 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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i was perusing a few profiles and one woman wants a slave to sign themselves over no talk, no meeting, to just show up on her doorstep in chains.  With the promise they will be cared for.

One woman makes the point that the slave she chooses will be treated like shit, put down, never praised, and never appreciated.

It seems to me these people who desire someone using the terms "Slave Heart", "SlaveHood", "Slave to the Core", are most likely abusive and looking for their next victim.

It seems to me that any person who would desire this kind of abusive treatment really should be seeking help including the dominants who desire to exploit and perpetuate the victims condition.

People may be born good hearted and generous with a will and a propensity to please another but i think its a foolishly incorrect assessment to believe that the submissive side of the equation is not in this for something for themselves as well.

Take that away, what the slave needs to fulfill their own personal needs in the relationship and you can throw "Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core" right out the window with it.

Therefore these terms do not exist in reality and these terms are nothing more than a fantasy and a catchy plug for the abusive to snag their next victim.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/23/2006 11:37:25 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session
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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/23/2006 11:45:58 PM   
DragonNphoenix


Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		I am a slave.  I have a slaves heart.  I live to serve my Master and make him happy.  My joy is seeing his joy, my pain is seeing him in pain.  I am NOT abused, nor am I taken advantage of in any way.  I am loved.  I am healthier than I have ever been.  I am a slave.  I am at peace.

1st Girl Phoenix

_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/23/2006 11:55:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DragonNphoenix

I am a slave.  I have a slaves heart.  I live to serve my Master and make him happy.  My joy is seeing his joy, my pain is seeing him in pain.  I am NOT abused, nor am I taken advantage of in any way.  I am loved.  I am healthier than I have ever been.  I am a slave.  I am at peace.

1st Girl Phoenix


i am very happy for you that you are in love, but i really was not referring to slaves in love who have become such after much time spent together with one another.  My post refers moreso to those who the mere mention of love would get you blocked because they view you strictly as property and love is not part of the dominants equation.

Take all the warm feelings you experience for your dom away would you still be a slave at heart?  Would you continue to serve him if the love was not returned to you?

Would you serve anyone at all for the sake of serving? which seems to be the implications of the terms slave at heart?




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/24/2006 12:02:20 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 12:05:38 AM   
SoulfulSadism


Posts: 53
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		Chances are good that 'the slave wants to be a victim of abuse' and 'the dominant wants to be an abuser' ***in the context*** you have described are right.

However, remember that the abused usually mature very quickly, and are far more complicated - signing them off simply as victims is an oversimplification and the complete opposite of rescue.

Also, there are people who have never been abused - they simply want to experience the deepest thrill they can - which means .... joining a dangerous situation.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 12:12:55 AM   
DragonNphoenix


Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		Yes,,, I truely believe that I would still be a slave, even if I was not loved.  It is who I am. 

1st Girl Phoenix

_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 12:18:26 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline 		No doubt there are abusive predators who operate under the firmament of BDSM. They come in many forms; some want to just rape another of their means or find a disposable doll to vent their spleen upon. Nonetheless, there are some bestial stratums of human desire not meant for every mind to understand. Motive and want are slippery eels that are difficult to quantify in the darkness of the human spirit.

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 12:24:14 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Would you continue to serve him if the love was not returned to you?


This describes, exactly, my first BDSM relationship and yes, I served Him though I did not love him. I served Him because I was powerless not to serve.

quote:

Would you serve anyone at all for the sake of serving?


To that, I answer no. Not just anyone is capable of taking and holding power. I served only those with the ability to Master what "I" had.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 12:48:10 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

one woman wants a slave to sign themselves over no talk, no meeting, to just show up on her doorstep in chains.  With the promise they will be cared for.

Wishful thinking? I'm sure lotsa people live with fantasies, the sad thing would be if anyone ever took her up on it.

quote:

..one woman makes the point that the slave she chooses will be treated like shit, put down, never praised, and never appreciated.

That might be attractive to certain people, different strokes for different folks. I dont see it as ingredients for anything other than casual meetings though.

quote:

terms "Slave Heart", "SlaveHood", "Slave to the Core", are most likely abusive and looking for their next victim.


I can hear what your saying, although I like to think of myself as having a slave heart.
Just as an addition to that: I also like to be spoken to roughly. It would take more than a harsh term or whatever to put me off.

quote:

 i think its a foolishly incorrect assessment to believe that the submissive side of the equation is not in this for something for themselves as well.


Me too, after all, a submisive "needs" something/someone to submit to.

quote:

Take that away, what the slave needs to fulfill their own personal needs in the relationship and you can throw "Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core" right out the window with it.


I'm not quite sure if I'm totally understanding what your saying there...but I can say....I lived without a BDSM Master for around 4 years....my slave needs were not being met entirely in the relationship I was in....but it didnt change my submissive(slave) nature towards the person I was with.

quote:

Therefore these terms do not exist in reality and these terms are nothing more than a fantasy and a catchy plug for the abusive to snag their next victim.


I probably agree for the most part that the incessant need for name calling or incredible demands intitally or whatever probably amounts to either 1. Someone who is just an online person or 2. A potential Abuser....but saying that.....I wouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater...everyone communicates differently... like I said before...some peoples kink is to talk harshly and particular submissive/slave types might be totally receptive to it.




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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 1:33:50 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Three aspects here are worthy of further investigation. These are not restricted to the BDSM, M/s or Gorean Lifestyles but from a wider community itself.  
  1. Firstly, there are those who may well be attracted to the Gorean ethos in which they not only have the burning desire to serve and to be pleasing. They may indeed come from a similar situation, they may mix with those who are involved with such a relationship (such as collar-me forums) or they, whilst having no practical experience, have read and have researched and feel a need to test the waters of such a ridged system. These slaves not only need and desire to be owned and to serve, but need to be Mastered properly.
  2. Secondly, there are those who have seen some aspects of bondage possible as a submissive and even in a D/s relationship. Some have listened to yarns from others in various lifestyle and most have a rich fantasy life which may have been enhanced by role playing on line. Some of these may even have experienced cyber relationships which were believed to be genuine. I see these as akin to innocent children who have no concept of the evils which abound in real life for the unwary. They truly do walk where Angels fear to tread.
  3. Lastly, there are those who may or may not be involved in the BDSM, M/s or Gorean Lifestyles, but are victims of abuse and who by the nature of preferring to return to the type of relationship they understand and even feel at home in, return time and time again to such abusive situations until something snaps and they are able to break the cycle or ate killed by an abuser. (I know that there are many here who are experienced in working with these women and some who have been there and done that).
  All of the people in these three groups are potential slaves and even wonderful ones but each needs some thing and someone special. In so many cases, love manifests within the relationship in a variety of ways. Usually it does not adversely affect the Master/slave dynamics but may even enhance it. It would be wrong to label those who are involved in slavery as slaves with a single tag. It is after all a complex psychological situation with no single rational for why a slave becomes a slave.   I’ll rest my argument now and turn the floor over to those who have a better understanding of things carry the debate on..




_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 2:23:17 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		RO,
From a personal perspective I tend to view it  pretty similar in that someone who doesn't know me, throwing themselves at my feet proclaiming to have no limits and that I can do with her as I wishes is a BIG red flag. I too see it as more than likely they are too caught up in the fantasy and not taking enough notice of the realitys. They are definatly NOT looking for what I am looking for, as I want a D/s 'relationship' and for me that grows (Fast or slow isn't the point) as you learn the other person and that emotional spark grows and simply CAN'T be just formed with 'anyone', it has to be the right someone! As I state in my profile, I'm looking for a person, not just a body.

With the right girl, my limits will become her limits... because she will learn to trust that our hard limits are compatable and that whilst I will no doubt push and expand every soft limit she has over time, that I don't want to go to places where she CAN'T go anyhow.

Also, yes I do tend to view the Doms who advertise in that manner as people likely to be either abusive... or who simply haven't learned themselves and are caught up in the whole chatroom based unrealistic fantasy shite!

Where I disagree with you however RO, is that whilst I see the majority that way, I also accept that for a very small number, they make it work for them and is what they need. So whilst I am VERY wary of those who go that route, I would not catagoricaly state it is the wrong route.


_____________________________

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 5:18:37 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


i was perusing a few profiles and one woman wants a slave to sign themselves over no talk, no meeting, to just show up on her doorstep in chains.  With the promise they will be cared for.

One woman makes the point that the slave she chooses will be treated like shit, put down, never praised, and never appreciated.

It seems to me these people who desire someone using the terms "Slave Heart", "SlaveHood", "Slave to the Core", are most likely abusive and looking for their next victim.

 
 

I just want to point out that the concept of slave heart (complete with extra valves for all that slavey blood pouring through it) has actually been fairly popular within some sections of the leather community.  Personally I think its romantic empty bullshit that verges on the uber-dorky, but I wouldn’t say that it’s a red flag for abusers namely because I’ve seen it within some M/S subgroups.  

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 3/24/2006 5:19:00 AM >

_____________________________

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~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 5:48:49 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I just want to point out that the concept of slave heart (complete with extra valves for all that slavey blood pouring through it) has actually been fairly popular within some sections of the leather community.  Personally I think its romantic empty bullshit that verges on the uber-dorky, but I wouldn’t say that it’s a red flag for abusers namely because I’ve seen it within some M/S subgroups.  

C~


Ditto and double ditto.  One of the reasons I felt ok with missing the M/s conference last year was that ALL of the sessions seemed to have those words in them. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 7:29:54 AM   
EvilGeoff


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Take that away, what the slave needs to fulfill their own personal needs in the relationship and you can throw "Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core" right out the window with it.

Therefore these terms do not exist in reality and these terms are nothing more than a fantasy and a catchy plug for the abusive to snag their next victim.


Sorry, RO, but I have to disagree here.

A person with a slave's heart has their own personal need.  The need to be owned.  Without that sense of being owned, of being the property of another, their need is NOT being met.  You may disagree with the concept, but that doesn't change the reality of what some people experience and feel.

You can object to the terms all you like, but there are people out there who have a slave heart.  There are relationships out there that encourage, enforce, and allow the slave to experience their "slavehood".  Being "slave to the core" is a reality for many people.  I have known many who claimed to be "slave" who are no more slave than I am.  I have known many who would argue till doomsday that they were not a slave but they do have a slave heart and are, in fact, "slave to the core" but they simply can't accept the term because of emotional or societal baggage.  Whatever label you put on the person doesn't change the nature of who or what they are, any more than calling "lilac" "light purple" changes the nature of that color.

There are abusers operating under the guise of BDSM out their who use the lingo to their advantage, that I will grant.  Just as in the vanilla world there are those who use the term "marriage" as a license and excuse to abuse their spouse.   The actions of the few do not invalidate the experiences, needs, and desires of the many.

A slave having their needs and desires met doesn't mean "slavery doesn't exist".  It means that the Owner is a decent, responsible, caring human being who values his/her property and wants to have the use of their property for a long time.  Sometimes it becomes more than that and we grow to love our slaves and they grow to love their Owners.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 7:44:07 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i have used the term "slave heart," having nothing to do with loving or being loved, and everything to do with the burning my own heart feels to be overpowered by one who can overpower it.  Touching my heart does not mean love, it means One has spoken to me on a level which others have not attained.

i was a slave to my Master before i loved him.  i did grow to love him, before he loved me.  Our current feelings for each other do not impact his command or power over me, other than my draw to him is even more intense than it was before.  We are not romantic with each other.

It is true i begged him to train me, but i never asked him to love me.  i did ask, however, that if i gave myself to him, would he care for me?  And by "care for me" i did not mean love me, i meant take care of my basic needs, ie; look out for me.

To quote DragonNphoenix,
"I am a slave.  I have a slaves heart.  I live to serve my Master and make him happy.  My joy is seeing his joy, my pain is seeing him in pain.  I am NOT abused, nor am I taken advantage of in any way.  I am loved.  I am healthier than I have ever been.  I am a slave.  I am at peace."
 
To quote from Celeste,
"Not just anyone is capable of taking and holding power. I served only those with the ability to Master what "I" had. "

(i'm so glad you guys don't mind me plagiarizing you!)

And wildfleurs, i like to think my heart has as many valves as anyone else (lol) but it contains my desire to submit to the One who is capable of owning it.  Call me dorky if you will - i am already a self-proclaimed dork! 

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 8:37:36 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		While I agree that there are many who want abusive relationships, or at least what I see as one and I think you do too, I disagree with the generalities.The "Heart of slave" and "Heart of Master" I've been exposed to (and that means a great deal to me...I have these on the fridge).

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/slave.htm
http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/Master.htm

It's true that people who have a heart of slave can be abused, or can abuse themselves, easily, if they are not aware of who they are. The preditors are looking for those people. It's the slave's job to sift through and find someone with the Heart of Master...and to have the sense to NOT show up on the doorstep, in chains, contract signed.

Fire


_____________________________

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 9:30:41 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

And wildfleurs, i like to think my heart has as many valves as anyone else (lol) but it contains my desire to submit to the One who is capable of owning it.  Call me dorky if you will - i am already a self-proclaimed dork! 



Thank you RO for a great post, they always make Me think and re-think, this is one I stand very firm on--and I used ownedgirlie's quote as a reference--it makes Me wonder when a submissive/slave offers complete no limit, no strings to a Dom/me, where the self respect is? Would they walk up to a complete stranger in a bar and offer the same thing? How do they know I am worthy of them? Worthy of owning them? (that will start some flaming I'm sure)--but I see it as a two way street, they need to be worthy of Me as I am of them----but back to the subject--
 
as for the idea of a slave-heart, I can see that developing as the relationship develops, and not necessarily love---but that word we toss about "trust"--even with a Pro, if a submissive develops trust, they will let the Pro take them further and further---that is where I see the slave-heart, slave head start to happen--I remember when My boy gave himself to Me completely, he had never done that with another Domme because, it wasn't right, the level of trust wasn't there---to say today he has a slave heart--I'd say very much so, but when W/we met---nope, he was protectively seeking.
 
So I too wonder, and I wonder about Dom/mes that ask for that? To Me that comes off as more domineering than dominant--but that IMHO only--what works for one doesn't work for another.

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 9:07:08 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
quote:

 i think its a foolishly incorrect assessment to believe that the submissive side of the equation is not in this for something for themselves as well.
quote:

Take that away, what the slave needs to fulfill their own personal needs in the relationship and you can throw "Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core" right out the window with it.


I'm not quite sure if I'm totally understanding what your saying there...but I can say....I lived without a BDSM Master for around 4 years....my slave needs were not being met entirely in the relationship I was in....but it didnt change my submissive(slave) nature towards the person I was with. 



take that away, i was referring to if a dom(me) takes away what the slave needs for the slaves fulfillment.........


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to slavejali)
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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/24/2006 9:32:20 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:


Quote: RealOne
take that away, i was referring to if a dom(me) takes away what the slave needs for the slaves fulfillment.........


Well as I see it the only thing I think a slave needs for fulfillment is someone to dominate them, take control, possess them.... I've got a weird take on this..and Im not sure I can explain it without writing two pages lol...but I started a thread here once...about moving from abuse to conscious slavery and in it I kinda skirted around the idea that why I stayed in the relationship for so long was because I *enjoyed* the amount of control an abuser gives..it really satiated my slave needs...didnt mean that it didnt eat into other areas of my well-being..but as far as slave needs went...that relationship fulfilled them...time has gone on since then...I would never put myself into the same position...but...if we are just talking about slave needs...."a slave" just needs to submit and that can be taken advantage of by dominant people of all kinds of personalities. So is every slave in it for something for them, and will their slavery cease if all their needs arent being met? I'm unsure of the answer, but perhaps not.

(hope that kinda made sense).

P.S. I am in no way advocating that a slave type personality should expose themselves to an abusive situation. It was just a good example to use.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 3/24/2006 9:55:59 PM >

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RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/25/2006 11:33:13 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGeoff
A person with a slave's heart has their own personal need.  The need to be owned.  Without that sense of being owned, of being the property of another, their need is NOT being met.  You may disagree with the concept, but that doesn't change the reality of what some people experience and feel.
YIK,
- Geoff
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
So I too wonder, and I wonder about Dom/mes that ask for that? To Me that comes off as more domineering than dominant--but that IMHO only--what works for one doesn't work for another.
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
P.S. I am in no way advocating that a slave type personality should expose themselves to an abusive situation. It was just a good example to use.



It seems to me that one can grow into a slave heart for a specific person as MH brought to the board.  However albeit that a slave seeks to be dominated in life, other life issues come into play such as abuse, or even possibly a certain lifestyle.  Not sure how many slaves woudl like to plow a field by hand or rough it in the mountains with none of the pleasures or conveniences that we take for granted every day in our lives.

It seems to me that it takes "more" than just the slave aspects of a relationship for a person to be fulfulled in slavery than simply the "being owned/controlled factor" of the relationship even if love is not desired by either party and today slavery is consentual and based on many factors that extend far beyond "just the control" aspects of slavery.

It seems to me, that all things considered,  virtually "any" slave will lets say escape from their master if the situation they are placed in is not to thier satisfaction for reasons of mental health, maltreatment, mistrust, and a host of other reasons.

i get the feeling that no one has really disagreed with this on all levels. 

It seems to me that "Slave Heart", "SlaveHood", "Slave to the Core" are terms that are on the same plane as "all" or "never", 100% slave, which implies by my way of thinking virtually any dom(me) could walk up to any number of people who are truly slaves, grab them take them home and they will all live happily ever after.  (and i think we know that is not the case in reality)








_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Slave Heart, SlaveHood, Slave to the Core? Really? - 3/25/2006 12:27:28 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I have to completely agree with you here.  When I first starting getting involved in the local community I met a Dom who claimed he had a slave's heart (and of course this made him unquestioningly qualified to delve deep, deep into a slave's heart and mind and *truely* understand them). That pretty much clinched the  romantic bullshit angle for me

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I just want to point out that the concept of slave heart (complete with extra valves for all that slavey blood pouring through it) has actually been fairly popular within some sections of the leather community.  Personally I think its romantic empty bullshit that verges on the uber-dorky, but I wouldn’t say that it’s a red flag for abusers namely because I’ve seen it within some M/S subgroups.  


< Message edited by MsIncognito -- 3/25/2006 12:29:55 PM >

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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