RE: So now what? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:20:04 PM)

Jeff, any revolution we get in this country will not be one the left (or people who hold some of the values they like to proclaim they have) would be very happy with the outcome of.



Thadius -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:23:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm not up to speed on the precise rules for the Senate, Thad, but I don't think that process would be subject to a filibuster.

It would just be really, really dumb, and shortsighted.  Not that such things keep the Democrats from doing something, mind you.


No worries, I went and looked it up. First off Opiate, was wrong about cloture ever requiring 55 votes. The original rule was 2/3 of all Senators present and voting, it was changed to the current 3/5 of all Senators duly chosen and sworn because it was very difficult to achieve cloture under the original rules. To change the Senate rules (if a filibuster is attempted) it still requires the 2/3 supermajority to invoke cloture.




DarkSteven -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:25:08 PM)

I have mixed feelings about Brown's election, but I am happy that the health care bill, as it stands, is DOA.

The problem is very simple.  It is that health care costs too much.  It costs so much that businesses are watering down their coverage.  It costs so much that individuals cannot afford it.

The obvious solution is to find out WHY it costs so much.  The solution of keeping prices high and shifting the costs is ridiculous, and will tend to keep prices high.  I'd love to see prices reduced, and I'd get an extra kick if the HMOs get a haircut as part of it.

The two types of folks I hate the most are the bankers and the HMOs.  The bankers already got their goody package - no point giving another to the HMOs.



chiaThePet -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:28:49 PM)


Ivana Trump will marry for the fifth time, once again booking that much desired clitoral lift,
ensuring the jobs and welfare of half the medical community of Manhattan's upper east side.

Unfortunately, deep depression will lead Nancy Pelosi into a sudden, sad spiral of horrid plastic
surgery which will result in the US Capitol Building being renamed The Ronald McDonald House.

Business as usual.

But with a centerfold to distract us.

chia* (the pet)



opiate69 -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


No worries, I went and looked it up. First off Opiate, was wrong about cloture ever requiring 55 votes.


Ahh.. yeah.. I was mis-remembering something I had read.. I got the 55 from the "duly sworn" provision. The article I was thinking of was positing a scenario where 3 or 4 senators were not sworn due to election wrangling, deaths, etc.. in any case, it's all acadmeic at this point since the Dems are just going to continue allowing the minority to dictate the agenda.



Louve00 -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:44:52 PM)

I don't think the bill is totally dead yet, either  (at least I hope for all our sakes its not).  But Brown is for health reform.  And he's a republican.  I've always been a firm believer in balance.  The repub's have been way to bitter, vindictive, and have valiently earned their "party of no" reputation.  I think this victory is what they needed, and maybe they can pipe down, quit saying "no" so much, and start working together to help the nation. 

Its useless to lament over the money and time lost with the wars.  Regretful, but useless.  And you're right.  I, too, thought Obama was coming in with way too much than a man...or even a bunch of men could handle as quickly as it needed to be handled...or as efficiently.  With that said though, as much as being quick and efficient was and is needed, I doubt the urgency of it all affords us efficiency.  At least not totally, if we work quick enough to accomplish something for the good.  But again, I think as more republicans get seats and the balance comes more into....balance, there will be a willingness (I hope) to help to solve some of this, too.

I agree with you.  Talk of alternative parties is all well and good.  But unlikely...and takes more work in the mere establishment of who they are and their true credibility than the time we have to accomplish these things.  Its better to independantly listen to what politician is talking about what...keeping in mind they'll always be politicians.  [8|]

I agree, our own actions could bring us down...not anyone else's.  I'm hoping that can change with the start of Brown's victory and some more repubs to get things balances in the house again.  Its the only way both parties settle down and get to business. IMHO.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:47:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Ivana Trump will marry for the fifth time, once again booking that much desired clitoral lift,
ensuring the jobs and welfare of half the medical community of Manhattan's upper east side.

Unfortunately, deep depression will lead Nancy Pelosi into a sudden, sad spiral of horrid plastic
surgery which will result in the US Capitol Building being renamed The Ronald McDonald House.

Business as usual.

But with a centerfold to distract us.



Tell me the truth... you just made all that up, didn't you?



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:58:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I have mixed feelings about Brown's election, but I am happy that the health care bill, as it stands, is DOA.

The problem is very simple.  It is that health care costs too much.  It costs so much that businesses are watering down their coverage.  It costs so much that individuals cannot afford it.

The obvious solution is to find out WHY it costs so much.  The solution of keeping prices high and shifting the costs is ridiculous, and will tend to keep prices high.  I'd love to see prices reduced, and I'd get an extra kick if the HMOs get a haircut as part of it.

The two types of folks I hate the most are the bankers and the HMOs.  The bankers already got their goody package - no point giving another to the HMOs.



I pretty much agree with your whole point here, but the part I bolded will never happen. That's the whole problem - the insurance companies and the drug manufacturers (the ones who are benefiting from those extraordinary costs) will never allow a bill that solves that problem to pass. They simply won't permit it. They're the ones who spent over a billion dollars over the last two years to destroy this bill. They'll never allow Congress to pass a bill that takes away their cash cow. Ever.



chiaThePet -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:58:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Ivana Trump will marry for the fifth time, once again booking that much desired clitoral lift,
ensuring the jobs and welfare of half the medical community of Manhattan's upper east side.

Unfortunately, deep depression will lead Nancy Pelosi into a sudden, sad spiral of horrid plastic
surgery which will result in the US Capitol Building being renamed The Ronald McDonald House.

Business as usual.

But with a centerfold to distract us.



Tell me the truth... you just made all that up, didn't you?



I wish.

Tell me a lift is not in order.

The proof is in the pudding.

Pudding.

Pudd.

Pud.

chia* (the pet)




[image]local://upfiles/388433/43E03EECC501496D877555EA30D9E491.jpg[/image]



Real0ne -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 6:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Trouble is...the status quo is spiraling health care costs, more companies dropping coverage, more people dropped from their coverage when its needed most, more inability to get coverage with some conditions...all while medicaid/medicare is rapidly approaching a far worse crisis than social security, with no political will to fix either.


well you see thats what happens when you get the guberment in the middle of it.

Money to be made man!





pahunkboy -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 7:01:18 PM)

isn't government the most wonderful thing since sliced bread?

not mentioned is the uptick in Independent registered voters.   A whole bunch.

But isn't the NWO lovely?    Centralized control will tell you when to shit and where and if.  How long and tax and tax you for this "service".

...the vote for brown was a vote against the NWO.



Real0ne -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 7:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Ivana Trump will marry for the fifth time, once again booking that much desired clitoral lift,
ensuring the jobs and welfare of half the medical community of Manhattan's upper east side.

Unfortunately, deep depression will lead Nancy Pelosi into a sudden, sad spiral of horrid plastic
surgery which will result in the US Capitol Building being renamed The Ronald McDonald House.

Business as usual.

But with a centerfold to distract us.



Tell me the truth... you just made all that up, didn't you?



I wish.

Tell me a lift is not in order.

The proof is in the pudding.

Pudding.

Pudd.

Pud.

chia* (the pet)




[image]local://upfiles/388433/43E03EECC501496D877555EA30D9E491.jpg[/image]



nah she just fine!

but then you know!


[image]local://upfiles/59055/740FF3699FE44D47BE639638627C0B3E.jpg[/image]



AsmodaisSin -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 7:33:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

It is possible for the Dems to still force feed a compromise between the House and Senate before Brown is seated (with a little help from Mass. Dem Machine).



...except that Obama has already publically ruled that out. i doubt that some of our more rabid right wing posters will give that announcement the respect is deserves. Obama taking the honourable route, rather than sprinting for partisan advantage.


Good for Obama.  He's finally taking the high ground and doing something right for a change. 



pahunkboy -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 7:41:16 PM)

the government should give each one of us a nice pony.   and they ought to give us a pony for free.



AsmodaisSin -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 7:49:53 PM)

I think that Congress and the Senate should take these healthcare plans and they themselves will be the guinea pigs for a couple years.  If they're satisfied, then we'll accept the healthcare plan.  If they're not?  Then they can stop trying to screw around with healthcare like that.  Why not revamp the medical programs we have in the first place?  CHIP, for instance. 



Kirata -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 8:11:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

If they're satisfied, then we'll accept the healthcare plan.

I've always liked that idea. They're supposed to represent us, aren't they? If they wouldn't want it, why pretend we would? I think their health care coverage should be mandated to be the same plan they vote for the rest of us. It would be certain to be expensive, but if they didn't find a way to pay for it then they wouldn't get it either. Sensible fiscal policy might even suddenly become popular.

K.



AnimusRex -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 8:40:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think their health care coverage should be mandated to be the same plan they vote for the rest of us.


or

We could insist that they all go out and buy health insurance on the open market. They all seem to advocate that anyway.



AnimusRex -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 8:47:17 PM)

What needs to happen, is that the progressives need to build a movement like the conservatives did.

The election in 2008 was a paper thin victory, masking the inherent divisions between Blue Dogs and progressives.

A decade ago, the Blue Dogs and moderate Republicans could form a governing middle- but there are no moderate Republicans anymore, there are only rabid Teabaggers. So the progressives need to form a working coalition and take over the Democratic Party.

No movement every captures a huge majority- even under Reagan, less than a majority were solid republican- but with a strong base, you can pick up enough disaffected others to form a working governing party.

Right now, very few people actually stand up proudly and call themselves "progressive"; the name and identity hasn't been formed, the platform hasn't been built in the minds of the electorate. Everyone knows what a conservative stands for- no one really knows what a progressive is. S they lurch from single issue to single issue, struggling to keep their stray cats in line.



Sanity -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 8:51:38 PM)


They'll obviously just print or borrow more, rather than lower their own standards.
Democrats propose $1.9T increase in debt limit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

If they're satisfied, then we'll accept the healthcare plan.

I've always liked that idea. They're supposed to represent us, aren't they? If they wouldn't want it, why pretend we would? I think their health care coverage should be mandated to be the same plan they vote for the rest of us. It would be certain to be expensive, but if they didn't find a way to pay for it then they wouldn't get it either. Sensible fiscal policy might even suddenly become popular.

K.



thornhappy -> RE: So now what? (1/20/2010 8:58:01 PM)

When do all y'all think we'll finally raise taxes?



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