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ORIGINAL: osf

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i love the fact that you all see impunity as alien to the dynamic (as it should be so, certainly) but there are cases where 'suck it up - youre my slave, live with it' is part and parcel of what we do and for the large part i am completely happy with that, its what i buy into totally.

i love that sentiment as it's mine too, after all the talking is done there comes a time when it has to be done

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: osf

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i love the fact that you all see impunity as alien to the dynamic (as it should be so, certainly) but there are cases where 'suck it up - youre my slave, live with it' is part and parcel of what we do and for the large part i am completely happy with that, its what i buy into totally.

i love that sentiment as it's mine too, after all the talking is done there comes a time when it has to be done

i love youre goosey goose cutey pie - she's so adorable. those beady eyes primed on the grape. too cute!!

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

Who decides when unfortunate consequences have occurred? Your example seems to imply that the submissive does. If a dominant behaves in essentially the same manner with 5 different submissives and the first four have no issues with it while the fifth does... did he act with an air of impunity the fifth time but not the first four times? I guess I fail to see any objective yardstick in this question if one even exists. 

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

Who decides when unfortunate consequences have occurred? Your example seems to imply that the submissive does. If a dominant behaves in essentially the same manner with 5 different submissives and the first four have no issues with it while the fifth does... did he act with an air of impunity the fifth time but not the first four times? I guess I fail to see any objective yardstick in this question if one even exists. 

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ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx

Acting with impunity means acting "without punishment".   It does not mean acting without regard to consequence.  Every action has a consequence, good or bad.  If the consequence is unfortunate, it does not mean He acted without punishment, it just means He acted without regard to said consequence.  The s type only decides the matter in her reaction to his action, not necessarily consciously.  If the situation goes awry and she gets harmed, it's back on Him whether to accept the "punishment" of having now to undo that harm or let her go on and "suck it up", thereby completing that action without punishment.

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ORIGINAL: lally2


acting with impunity means that they have no interest in the outcome for anyone else but themselves. they may feel bad about it afterwards, possibly, but by then the damage has been done.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

i have grown very tired of what some men wrap Ds and Ms up to mean for them. an excuse to behave any way they like and get away with it.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

when a Dom is hard wired to be a certain way and you have invested time, emotion and effort into the relationship there surely comes a point when valuing what you have does not mean that you are sacrificing a leaning in order to keep youre slave, its about accepting that there is something there she cannot handle and for the good of the relationship it needs to be shelved. but that decision ultimately is his, it cant be any other way. which is where impunity kicks in. if he is not prepared to make that decision for the good of the relationship then he is continuing to act in a way that is, frankly, abusive.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

fine line again. the right of the D to expect certain freedoms with their slave, versus abuse. the slave continues to suck it up but inside she's struggling like hell, shes a good slave for doing that, its what she's there for.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

i wonder if some guys coming here to Ds and Ms actually do think that the person they are interracting with actually is just some cast iron bitch with no feelings of self worth at all.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

acting with impunity means that they have no interest in the outcome for anyone else but themselves. they may feel bad about it afterwards, possibly, but by then the damage has been done.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

but on two occasions that i can think of, the 'activity' and not necessarily bdsm by the way, was pursued, even after the 'activity' was found to cause considerable emotional and physical upset. why? - because i am 'slave' and slave does as Master wishes, sod the fact that i found it unbearable - in the end i had to walk because i could not consider living with that for the rest of my life.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

if there is an action the slave finds difficult then it is surely beholden upon the Master to approach that activity with care and attention to how the slave is handling it.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

in that instant the slave can feel valued and understood and will more readily accept the activity, knowing that her Master is aware of the consequences.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

the impunity is still there, but as merc pointed out there is good impunity and bad impunity. impunity with empathy is good. impunity without regard for consequences is damaging.

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: lally2

i have grown very tired of what some men wrap Ds and Ms up to mean for them. an excuse to behave any way they like and get away with it.

That's exactly what M/s is. The only variable in the equation is you (the partner). That's the only thing making the situation possible at all. The entire point is to choose people whose character demonstrates an expanse of likely decisions stemming from "behaving any way they like" that you find awe-inspiring and/or competent.

im sure we would all agree that nothing ever stays the same in a relationship and in BDSM the whole premis in many ways is to explore and push beyond the known into the unknown. im all for that. but what may start out as compatible can suddenly become too much. in that instant, as you say, choosing a partner who is likely to make decisions that the sub or slave can still find awsome is the way things progress. it is also possible to take what was working well into a dimension that does not work well. my point here is that the dye in the wool Dominant who retains autonomy through perceived impunity is going to likely come unstuck unless he has the good sense to moderate his freedom to 'behave any way he likes'.

the sad thing is that in the end the slave or sub may very well be faced with the decision to leave - that isnt an outcome thats a damn shame - all for some 'point' being made that the Dominant should be free at all times to act with impunity - damn the consequences and the loss of something that might have been really good for both of them.

at what point does it stop being two adults in a mutually enjoyable relationship - i can tell you - when one of them starts to treat the other one badly. Ms, Ds or vanilla, its all the same.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

when a Dom is hard wired to be a certain way and you have invested time, emotion and effort into the relationship there surely comes a point when valuing what you have does not mean that you are sacrificing a leaning in order to keep youre slave, its about accepting that there is something there she cannot handle and for the good of the relationship it needs to be shelved. but that decision ultimately is his, it cant be any other way. which is where impunity kicks in. if he is not prepared to make that decision for the good of the relationship then he is continuing to act in a way that is, frankly, abusive.

"Abuse" constitutes a partner doing something tangibly and seriously damaging to you without your wanting it to happen. If you are a capable adult, however, that defense becomes void for the extent of time during which you still willingly consent to sustaining it.

the point im trying to make here, is why should that abuse happen in the first place. the fine line here is that i have often submitted to things i dont want but the Dominant did want and i got through it. it happens a fair bit actually, but as a sub or slave that is part of the deal quite often and because it is managed in such a way that care is taken throughout, the outcome, ultimately is a good one. but it can also happen that one can submit to something you hate, it is damaging, the sub mentions their genuine horror of it and yet it is pursued in the same aggressive manner. pursuing that line is therefore counter to the health of the relationship. by pursuing it you are pressing into territory that is 'wrong' for the sub or slave. right there you have an act of impunity that is basically saying, 'accept it or leave' and in that moment you have a situation where the slave or sub no longer feels their presence is valued.

in truth it is then abusing the good will of the sub or slave who is otherwise completely submissive to you. a Dominant is taking beyond the point of care and consideration. everything else might be great, it might just be this one activity that no matter what, she cannot cope with. in the end she is an adult in an adult relationship and up to a point, for a slave anyway, her choice to stay or leave is in fact abusing her also. she should not be put in either position.

the moment you start saying 'the slave has no rights whatsoever' you are discounting many who are more slave than sub, but have issues that need to be addressed not trampled on or you are creating a situation where the slave will not leave because she is so wired to submit and accept and shut up. both situations are wrong.

if you have a slave who is completely smitten, totally submissive, willingly and openly trusting, why on earth would anyone be so cavalier.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

fine line again. the right of the D to expect certain freedoms with their slave, versus abuse. the slave continues to suck it up but inside she's struggling like hell, shes a good slave for doing that, its what she's there for.

Depends on the M-type.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

i wonder if some guys coming here to Ds and Ms actually do think that the person they are interracting with actually is just some cast iron bitch with no feelings of self worth at all.

I don't see the problem here unless there was a bait and switch at some point in the progression of the relationship.

im sorry, i dont understand these comments.

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: lally2

acting with impunity means that they have no interest in the outcome for anyone else but themselves. they may feel bad about it afterwards, possibly, but by then the damage has been done.

This sounds like it has nothing to do with impunity as a process and everything to do with the decision-making skills of the M-type.

yes ok, the decision making skills are suspect. but the intent behind that decision is where im at. the intent is to do whatever they want because it works for them on an entirely selfish level. they know the sub or slave is struggling beyond the realms of reasonable acceptability but it continues because they are the D and what they want is more important.

Every relationship we engage in demands of us an implied consent to the potential to be hurt (in one way or another). It is no more necessarily profound in an M/s dynamic than a vanilla one.

never at any time in any of my vanilla relationships did i agree to be hurt emotionally or physically. in my Ms and Ds relationships i did agree to physical hurt - and that is where it gets a bit fuzzy for a slave or sub when the activity pushes them into a situation they are wired to submit to, committed to submit to, but find impossible or unbearable to the point where walking is the possible outcome.

So, with that in mind, we run equal risk (equal variables considered) in any relationship. What you seem to be suggesting is that being in an s-type's position nullifies the ability to make the intellectual assessment of when the hurt has progressed past the point of being able to contribute to the relationship as expected.

in my case not atall. i made the call in both relationships to walk and it seriously fucked me off. in making that decision i had to renaig on something that is fundamental to my personality and i had to walk away from someone i liked a great deal and was hopeful about. the far reaching affect of both of these situations was that i ended up having to review myself and yet, actually all that i was doing was protecting my own emotional health.

in the end it was bloody annoying.

For me, either I would betray the expectations I had made clear to my slave that she could expect from me, at which point she is free to decide if the lie (intentional or not) is more than she can handle and that's the end of the relationship or she realizes that, in reaction to an act that is in line with what I told her to expect, she is actually unable to handle it where she thought she could and she shares with me the fact that she feels she cannot serve me as had been delineated and (probably) she is released.
Sticking around in a relationship where there is no integrity or where you knowingly realize there are incongruent expectations, for any presumed virtuous sake, however, is not an entitlement to pseudo-martyrdom and any consoling that would be wrought from it.

in the above you speak from where you would stand and all that you put there is perfectly understandable, based on the fact that you have reached an empass over something, whether it was ommitted from the start and was introduced or it was something already known to be part of youre requirements. if the slave cannot live with it then she cant. but in there you infer youre own integrity and i would agree, from the little i know of you, i would certainly say that you come across as someone who would weigh all things up and proceed in the best interests of everyone involved.

being a slave or sub isnt about being virtuous at all. i have a very low martyr threshold believe me - being enslaved to someone or in submission to someone is part of what defines who i am when in a relationship. when im not the thought of being enslaved or in submission to someone is a bit like going to the dentist [:D] - i need to on one level but on another im perfectly happy thank you! [:)] my point being - i dont need this to fulfill my life and when i do find myself in submission to someone its because i believed their integrity and decision making skills were trustworthy. baling out isnt the easy option, its got nothing to do with martydom and everything to do with submitting to the man you believe in. when that suddenly gets wacked off the map because the guy believes his position as D or M means he can act with impunity over something i find impossible to live with makes it a shitty shame. i walk, some dont.

lagely, as ive said, its ok. there needs to be an air of impunity. the statement, 'i am youre Master and i expect you to do as youre asked' is where we s'types swing happily from all day long.

this act of impunity isnt always about compatibility. sometimes its just down to the pressure being exerted where the D or M feels its their right to do so and the sub or slave, wired to please, tries hard to comply, cant, feels crap about it and ultimately is put in the invidious position of rebelling against her own wiring. in there are two counts of unreasonable behaviour by the D type. first the impunity and second placing the slave in the position of having to reject herself (basically).

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ORIGINAL: lally2

but on two occasions that i can think of, the 'activity' and not necessarily bdsm by the way, was pursued, even after the 'activity' was found to cause considerable emotional and physical upset. why? - because i am 'slave' and slave does as Master wishes, sod the fact that i found it unbearable - in the end i had to walk because i could not consider living with that for the rest of my life.

So which of the two situations I listed above was this?

the first was something that was not discussed, but possibly implied in the sense that he was a sadist, i was his slave and most anything sadistic was on the table. i accepted that. one action however was brutal, not in a bludgeoning way, i was not damaged or harmed, but it was beyond reasonable endurance (for me - someone else might well have been pleased to bits) - this activity was not only going to continue but it was going to be made even more unbearable. i stepped away, i had no choice.

the second was something very small and stupid, but it got inside my brain and i lost complete respect for the guy. he had mentioned it in a small voice, in a small way but made no mention beyond until it happened. i voiced my discomfort but the activity was very much part of his psyche and i couldnt continue with a guy whose actions on this particular thing were screwing up my respect for him, but there was slightly more to that one, kinda invidious emotional sadism and that wasnt discussed before hand and its a hard limit because my brain just doesnt handle emotional abuse at all.

so i guess in a way, both situatons were involved in both situations. i knew before hand, tacitly and implied. i submitted, found both impossible to live with, realised they were not going to go away and so i had to leave. in both situations these two things were not integral, not vital, not in any way worth losing a relationship for. the impunity that set in was the attitude that they could do these things because my position was to shut up and put up, they wrongly assumed that as slave i didnt have the option to walk, but in the end, we are all adults living our life as well and as happily as we can.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

if there is an action the slave finds difficult then it is surely beholden upon the Master to approach that activity with care and attention to how the slave is handling it.

Not if I should expect it to be a smooth process because that is what was agreed upon.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

in that instant the slave can feel valued and understood and will more readily accept the activity, knowing that her Master is aware of the consequences.

If I am approaching something my slave is looking at in this manner, it would have to be something that we'd both understood was a very borderline task for her. Something that was known to be a pushing of the boundaries.

If I have to coddle her in the simple task to walk a mile to retrieve something from a store for me or to bring me a drink from the fridge, however, there's something very amiss in what should be an M/s dynamic.

i would heartily agree [:)]

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ORIGINAL: lally2

the impunity is still there, but as merc pointed out there is good impunity and bad impunity. impunity with empathy is good. impunity without regard for consequences is damaging.

Nothing to do with impunity. Everything to do with compatibility.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

Who decides when unfortunate consequences have occurred? Your example seems to imply that the submissive does. If a dominant behaves in essentially the same manner with 5 different submissives and the first four have no issues with it while the fifth does... did he act with an air of impunity the fifth time but not the first four times? I guess I fail to see any objective yardstick in this question if one even exists. 

youre assuming that all submissives are the same and will react the same - if the one who didnt react well and felt that he acted with impunity in this case then that is relative to that submissive. it may have been that the activity was raw for her and the Dominant knew that but continued anyway. the other four had no past issue with it and so reacted well.

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I strongly disagree with mercnbeth assessment of what a dom is. It's much more about leadership, stewardship. Than beating your slave when she clearly cant handle it for whatever reason.

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

Who decides when unfortunate consequences have occurred? Your example seems to imply that the submissive does. If a dominant behaves in essentially the same manner with 5 different submissives and the first four have no issues with it while the fifth does... did he act with an air of impunity the fifth time but not the first four times? I guess I fail to see any objective yardstick in this question if one even exists. 

youre assuming that all submissives are the same and will react the same - if the one who didnt react well and felt that he acted with impunity in this case then that is relative to that submissive. it may have been that the activity was raw for her and the Dominant knew that but continued anyway. the other four had no past issue with it and so reacted well.

Nowhere in my post did I assume any such thing or even allude to it. I said the dominant behaves in essentially the same manner each time. You have answered my question by saying it is relative to the submissive which essentially means if she says he acted with impunity then he did - even if he actually did not. Much like sexual harrasment - it is in the eye of the beholder and if the beholder says it happened then it happened. Even if it did not happen.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

but this isnt just about Ds or Ms or bdsm, impunity in my book is crass arrogance wherever it happens. when it happens there will always be consequences, well usually. only then, maybe does a person reflect and realise that their actions were wrong or damaging. but in almost every case that i can think of, its only when the consequence occurs that they realise their 'bad'.

in Ms or Ds the fine lne is drawn on because a slave or submissive is there to submit. then abuse of impunity can occur.

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ORIGINAL: agirl

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ORIGINAL: lally2

but this isnt just about Ds or Ms or bdsm, impunity in my book is crass arrogance wherever it happens. when it happens there will always be consequences, well usually. only then, maybe does a person reflect and realise that their actions were wrong or damaging. but in almost every case that i can think of, its only when the consequence occurs that they realise their 'bad'.

in Ms or Ds the fine lne is drawn on because a slave or submissive is there to submit. then abuse of impunity can occur.

Well....... I'm not actually here to submit..... I'm here because I asked for his authority. A lot of the time that doesn't involve any submission whatsoever.


[color=#333333]im not atall sure i understand the difference.

Within the relationship we have , he can pretty much act with impunity....... I asked to be here, with him.....I picked him and all that goes along with that. 

He should be able to act with impunity....my being with him gives him that. That's what we both knew would be the case.

[color=#333333]but since it isnt submission and youre not there to please you must therefore have some sort of say in what happens and when, how etcetera. if you dont have a say then you are in submission surely

never at any time in any of my vanilla relationships did i agree to be hurt emotionally or physically. in my Ms and Ds relationships i did agree to physical hurt - and that is where it gets a bit fuzzy for a slave or sub when the activity pushes them into a situation they are wired to submit to, committed to submit to, but find impossible or unbearable to the point where walking is the possible outcome.

So, with that in mind, we run equal risk (equal variables considered) in any relationship. What you seem to be suggesting is that being in an s-type's position nullifies the ability to make the intellectual assessment of when the hurt has progressed past the point of being able to contribute to the relationship as expected.

in my case not atall. i made the call in both relationships to walk and it seriously fucked me off. in making that decision i had to renaig on something that is fundamental to my personality and i had to walk away from someone i liked a great deal and was hopeful about. the far reaching affect of both of these situations was that i ended up having to review myself and yet, actually all that i was doing was protecting my own emotional health.

in the end it was bloody annoying.

 But.....you liked them a great deal *apart from..XXXXX......* Wasn't XXXXX part of them?  It seems as if you're pissed off because they didn't turn out to be what you wanted/expected/hoped for.

If you couldn't *be* what they wanted.........and they weren't being what you wanted.......for WHATEVER reason....you weren't compatable, surely?


his act of impunity isnt always about compatibility. sometimes its just down to the pressure being exerted where the D or M feels its their right to do so and the sub or slave, wired to please, tries hard to comply, cant, feels crap about it and ultimately is put in the invidious position of rebelling against her own wiring. in there are two counts of unreasonable behaviour by the D type. first the impunity and second placing the slave in the position of having to reject herself (basically).

 Well, yes........ my owner DOES have the right to, not because I'm *wired to please* but because I said..... * Ok*. If I try to comply, am rubbish at it and feel crap ....... I can't really beat him up about it. I DID ask to be there.

I'm rather with NZ here. Your dom may just as well felt and thought you were renaging too. It depends what you agreed to, and how well you know each other. It wouldn't work at ALL here if I said .... * Do as you wish .....* when I really meant * Do as you wish ....but don't do that*.

great. so within youre relationship there is nothing that you find impossible. you guys have a relationship where there is no need to say 'dont do that'. why - possibly because he understands you very well, knows youre limitations and acts with empathetic impunity. (read mercs first post to qualify)

It's not easy to explain why it's completely alright for him to do as he wishes, with no resentment , no bad feelings, no angst...without it really ending up being two people that know each other and knew that BOTH of them understood what they'd got into.

exactly. you both knew where you were within whatever dynamic it is that you have that works within that understanding, based on the fact that he does not view you as a submissive, there to please or submit.

up until the point where submission feels 'completely alright' a Dominant is in the position of doing anything he pleases - yes, absolutely and noone wants that to change, least of all the submissive or slave. but when they reach a road block, and it does happen, the boards have a full history of road blocks occuring in all dynamics the authority in that relationship has two directions to go. carry on and stuff the consequences or find a way around. not at any time have i ever said to a D 'dont do that', but i have told them how it feels for me in the hope that they modify the activity to at the very least break me into it more gently.[/color]agirl