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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 1:28:24 PM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline 		Antipode may not have the most cozy style, but he does have a point.  How do you define masochism?

Some think it's someone who can take a ton of pain.  I see it as a deep need within for him to hurt me at times (not always, though that's his decision)  ... because it both gets me off physically and satisfies something emotional inside - something that I haven't identified yet.  It's a really deep connection between the emotional and physical and with my partner also.  I've never gotten to the places I have with him with anyone else, so it's all interconnected.  I don't think it's something that can be taught.  Being able to withstand something can be taught, but actually getting something beyond the pure satisfaction of knowing HE was satisfied is wired within.  And you can't know whether you're wired that way without experiencing and experimenting.  The pain merges into arousal and pleasure - sometimes I think I can't take anymore, then I want more and more. 

Some tips to get her over the edge of not taking anymore - distraction helps me a lot.  He'll have these plastic clothespins all over me, and I'll be thinking 'fuck, no' and then he'll use my mouth ... and I forget about the pain and concentrate on him and have the most amazing o's.  If you want her to take more pain, give her some pleasure sprinkled in there.  Crop her, then stimulate her a bit, then crop some more...

If you google 'masochistic personality' you may get some good reading. 

< Message edited by mc1234 -- 1/26/2010 1:31:52 PM >

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 1:33:06 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Thata a good point MC that masochism is a different thing to different people, I am not the biggest pain slut on the planet but I like pain, sex is never as good for me unless there is an edge of pain, I dont see it as a deep emotional thing though it really is just pain in certain areas on my body, certain types of pain is hot. So though antipode may have a point for some not for all, and he really doesn't have a good way of expressing himself at all so I can understand the OP getting his back up, but then thats another matter

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 1:43:38 PM   
SlaveSimone


Posts: 95
Joined: 3/17/2008
From: Denver, Co
Status: offline 		This is an issue I've been pushing through for quite a while, as my partner is a major sadist, and to start with I had no inclination towards pain at all. I still don't get sexual pleasure from pain, however I do get to subspace through its application. We have managed at times to increase my tolerance, but like with most things it took a lot of practice. During the process I received a spanking every night, gradually increasing in intensity and duration. Most importantly though, I think, I learned how accept the pain rather then reject it. To accomplish this at first meant putting my focus on something else, mainly my breathing, until the pain passed. I essentially went into a meditative state and then eventually subspace. I would suggest googling breathing and meditation techniques and practicing them with out any play involved until she feels comfortable with them, and then using them before you start any play as well. You could also try some guided mediation with her as well, with you as the guide, but also adding touch and sensation as you go.  This may or may not help, I know for me my head space before hand ultimately determined my head space during the session, hence the meditation. Just remember to start out with more gentle sensations and build from there.

good luck,
Simone 


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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 4:06:11 PM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline 		Another thought I had also - people process different types of pain in different ways.  Thuddy, pinchy, stingy, with humiliation or without, hair pulling, slapping  - through experimenting you can find out how she reacts to different things.  Fun, fun!  

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 6:10:56 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		STOP THE TRAIN ! ! !
I challenge your understanding of terms.

-=Understand of terms=-
In a BDSM context, we are talking about “masochism” and “sexual masochism” which are paraphilias. “Masochistic Personality Disorder” is not a paraphilia, even though it was never fully explained in the DSM. Hopefully this disorder has nothing to with your BDSM lifestyle or anyone else’s for that matter.

-=The criteria for Masochism & Sexual Masochism is clearly defined=-
Masochism - the counterpart of sadism, is the sexual pleasure or gratification of having pain or suffering inflicted upon the self, often consisting of sexual fantasies or urges for being beaten, humiliated, bound, tortured, or otherwise made to suffer, either as an enhancement to or a substitute for sexual pleasure.

Sexual Masochism - the recurrent urge or behavior of wanting to be humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer.

-=No pain . . . my ass!=-
The requirements for sexual masochism are either “humiliated, beaten or bound”. Why do so many misunderstand the fact our perspectives are jaded by BDSM and argue the pain point so often? Go tie up a vanilla against their will and tell me how they describe it! After the criminal charges, you’ll be exposed to a civil suit for mental anguish. Anguish is pain by Webster's definition.

Physical or emotional pain is easy to define as a beating or humiliation. But suffering bondage is mental anguish and requires an understanding of terms.

. . . you might be a masochist if you don't like physical pain and just like to suffer through being tied up as an enhancement to or a substitute for sexual pleasure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

I've never really been one to be fascinated with pain or to consider it sexually before


As I said, masochism has nothing at all to do with pain. You could do better, probably, than to learn from a master who is this inexperienced - note his comment "Generally the girls who wanted to do S&M play were already either experienced masochists or had the inclination". Since he has no understanding of what a masochistic personality is, I doubt he could assess that. Most of my girls wanting to "do S&M play" (emphasis on "play") weren't masochists at all. Masochists do not "play".




quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

the girl I'm currently holding under my palm is curious and wants to learn it, experience it, know it.. however, as stated above, she has a low pain tolerance and no experience with masochism.


Masochism is a state of mind, not learned behaviour. Your question indicates that you don't have an understanding what masochism is, so I doubt you could teach someone else about it. Masochism, just to give you a tiny example, has nothing at all to do with pain.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[edit to add my notes]
I empathize with Antipode or anyone trying to get a grasp on the terms used to define sadism or masochism. In causal conversation I often do not differentiate between physical pain and mental/emotional pain of suffering. Even the DSM is in flux and the paraphilia criteria list is declining. There were previously more than 8 paraphilias because homosexuality was listed as a paraphilia in the old DSM-I and DSM-II (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual). We are currently on text revision DSM-!V-TR. Now the modern medical community is moving to completely abolish sadism and masochism as disease categories in the future of DSM-V-TR. Arguments are that the truly pathological forms of sadism and masochism are adequately covered by other diagnoses.

The definition of various sexual practices as paraphilias has been met with opposition and the medical community is getting political pressure to remove sadism and masochism as paraphilias from the upcoming DSM-V-TR. Efforts by the BDSM lifestyle communities, the ReviseF65 project and the many coalitions for sexual freedom, claim discrimination against sadomasochism referring to the precedent of removing of homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in the current DSM.

If they abolish sadism and masochism as paraphilias, that will bring the list of clinically recognized paraphilias down from 8 to 6 and set masochists and sadists apart from being officially recognized. That's OK with me, I didn't want my sadism to be officially recognized, covered by medical insurance or cured.
-------------------------------------------
Sources

The ReviseF65 project: link
Wikipedia: link
Wikipedia: link
Wikipedia: link
American Psychological Association (APA): paraphilia. (n.d.).
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from Dictionary.com: link
DSM-IV-TR The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual published 2000, by the American Psychiatric Association
AAPL, American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law link
Medicine Net link
Jahsonic: link

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 1/26/2010 6:28:30 PM >

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 8:58:39 PM   
antipode


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quote:

I challenge your understanding of terms.


I have a headache

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:00:45 PM   
antipode


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quote:

But you, man, wow. I wish you good luck, being old and bitter.


You're welcome

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:06:45 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Thata a good point MC that masochism is a different thing to different people, I am not the biggest pain slut on the planet but I like pain, sex is never as good for me unless there is an edge of pain, I dont see it as a deep emotional thing though it really is just pain in certain areas on my body, certain types of pain is hot. So though antipode may have a point for some not for all, and he really doesn't have a good way of expressing himself at all so I can understand the OP getting his back up, but then thats another matter

If we are to take someone's backwards insight at face value, you've just mistakenly shown your ignorance 5 times above.




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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:20:44 PM   
antipode


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quote:

we are talking about “masochism” and “sexual masochism” which are paraphilias


I can't agree that masochism, by definition, is related to sexuality. And "sexual" masochism would seem to imply there is such a thing as culinary masochism. And libertarian masochism. That masochism can play a part in sexuality is not in doubt, but used in psychology and psychotherapy, masochism is either a personality trait or a personality disorder, without any static definition of which senses are involved.

Hence my less than cozy observations - if a "dom" really equates sadism and masochism with (physical) pain, he shows significant ignorance of both human sadism/masochism, and of the mammalian pain mechanism.

Pain can certainly trigger arousal, especially in women, it is a well documented signaling mechanism, but as such has no relationship at all to sadism or masochism, although there are probably those who will opine that childbirth is an intrinsically masochistic endeavour.

< Message edited by antipode -- 1/26/2010 9:21:15 PM >

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:22:43 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

I challenge your understanding of terms.


I have a headache


I'll glady share my asprin.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:28:42 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

Hence my less than cozy observations - if a "dom" really equates sadism and masochism with (physical) pain, he shows significant ignorance of both human sadism/masochism, and of the mammalian pain mechanism.

I have no clue how you are concocting this, but it certainly isn't from a neurobiological or psychological angle.

What, precisely, is this "non-physical" pain you are elusively referring to?


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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:41:34 PM   
ItsAProcess


Posts: 62
Joined: 3/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

Hence my less than cozy observations - if a "dom" really equates sadism and masochism with (physical) pain, he shows significant ignorance of both human sadism/masochism, and of the mammalian pain mechanism.

I have no clue how you are concocting this, but it certainly isn't from a neurobiological or psychological angle.

What, precisely, is this "non-physical" pain you are elusively referring to?



Maybe he likes inflicting emotional/spiritual pain on others? That's the only other kind of pain I can think of.

But wait, studies into human emotional/physical reactions to emotional pain has shown that it can actually cause physical pain as well. Hmm.

I'm not sure what he's trying to get at either.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 9:49:41 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

we are talking about “masochism” and “sexual masochism” which are paraphilias


I can't agree that masochism, by definition, is related to sexuality. And "sexual" masochism would seem to imply there is such a thing as culinary masochism. And libertarian masochism. That masochism can play a part in sexuality is not in doubt, but used in psychology and psychotherapy, masochism is either a personality trait or a personality disorder, without any static definition of which senses are involved.

Hence my less than cozy observations - if a "dom" really equates sadism and masochism with (physical) pain, he shows significant ignorance of both human sadism/masochism, and of the mammalian pain mechanism.

Pain can certainly trigger arousal, especially in women, it is a well documented signaling mechanism, but as such has no relationship at all to sadism or masochism, although there are probably those who will opine that childbirth is an intrinsically masochistic endeavour.

Thank you for clarifying your reply. . . . I never disagreed with your observations, just the way you explained pain and masochism.

It is a very gray area and often debates lead to the question, “if it felt good to me, am I really a masochist?” I think the same applies to the erotic or sexual content in a scene where someone is being brutally humiliated, beaten, bound and lives as a human toilet. The DSM uses the term “sexual masochism”. It differentiates between the paraphilia and the disorder.

FYI - masochism and masochistic personality disorder (aka self defeating personality disorder) are entirely different.
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/criteria_personality_masochistic.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[edit to add reference about "sexual masochism"]
Freud (1924) delineated three types of masochism which he said overlap: sexual masochism, moral masochism and feminine masochism. Many analysts have suggested that a conscious or unconscious sexual element has to be present for a phenomenon to be considered masochism or sadism (Arlow, in Panel, 1956; Coen, 1988; Glenn, 1989; Glenn and Bernstein, 1995; Blum, 1991). Otherwise one could not differentiate masochism from guilt-derived self attack, adaptive sacrifice, or tolerating child bearing pain to achieve the gratifications of motherhood. As Blum (1991) has put it: "Without sexual pleasure in suffering, masochism can hardly be distinguished from passive aggression, selfabasement, and self-defeat" (p. 433). Nor could we tell sadism from hostile aggression or angry assertiveness.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 1/26/2010 10:05:09 PM >

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/26/2010 11:35:20 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
FYI - masochism and masochistic personality disorder (aka self defeating personality disorder) are entirely different.

Thanks for this, and your other long post.  This is why I won't sign the petition requesting the removal of masochism from the DSM.  Short version of my position: there really are people who really are fucked up.

ItsAProcess -- antipode is well known to be an asshole, but that doesn't mean he's stupid, or wrong.  I wouldn't take any long-term-relationship advice from him, but his comments on this thread seem more logically coherent than your own.

You might consider taking some time to read the links ResidentSadist posted.  That would be of more value than arguing on the internet.


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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/27/2010 3:16:38 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		^ The topic is of high interest to me. Thanks for the acknowledgement, I appreciate that.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/27/2010 7:31:56 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
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From: United States
Status: offline 		I think RS has it right.

Bottom line is that I think masochism can't be learned. But, you can increase tolerance and you can "Pavlovian" some acts.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/27/2010 12:17:20 PM   
antipode


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Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

What, precisely, is this "non-physical" pain you are elusively referring to?


Here is a literature quote:

"The crudest example of classification by etiology simply distinguishes "somatogenic" pain (arising from a perturbation of the body) from "psychogenic" pain (arising from a perturbation of the mind)."

While there is a popular understanding that pain has physical origins, visit any pain treatment center website, the Cleveland Clinic:

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/anesthesia/pain_management/default.aspx

has a particularly renowned pain management department, and you will find that particularly chronic pain does not fit in the definition of physical pain, if we confine that to the type of pain you get from a dentist's drill or a broken bone. Simply put, there are many types of pain that do not result from a nerve ending signal - pain is a communicative brain function, and the brain will use it for many different sensations. People can have pain in places for which there are no pain receptors.

But the issue was not that - my point was that sadism and masochism do not by definition involve pain, which is what the OP as well as his sub stipulated. Pain, as an erotogenic factor, has nothing to do with masochism at all. This is important to understand - a person who has a pain orgasm - say, an athlete or a ballerina - is actually very unlikely to be a masochist.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 1/27/2010 1:24:30 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		I think both sadism and masochism in their truest sense are not the same as the way the vast majority of people use the terms, I am not going to try and reiterate what RS said very well throughout the thread, but anitpode I am really confused by your argument, sadism and masochism in the context that the op used them do by definition involve pain, the origin of the term sadist is directly linked to causing people pain. Also pain as an erotogenic factor has everything to do with masochism if they are using the term masochism to mean gets off with pain which is how the term is often used.

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 4/27/2010 4:07:04 PM   
dragon200070


Posts: 93
Joined: 2/9/2010
Status: offline 		Pain toleration depends on many things. My slave is normally very pain averse. Can't stand any pain. But when she's in slave mode and very excited, I can whip her hard, and she'll come fast.

Study how to get your girl excited, and maintain it.

Jeff

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RE: Masochism 101: For Dummies. - 5/15/2010 11:28:08 PM   
Difahrint


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/15/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think you can make someone a masochist, well not straight away anyway. Simply because I believe it's a type of thing associated with deeper personality traits. I think if you slowly involve your partner to learn pain and pleasure can mix then they will take a slow liking towards it. Eventually building towards larger fixations for such a case. If you're wondering how to go about this, I can suggest introducing your partner to tones of pleasure and then in the midst of their excitement introduce tones of pain. Example would be to play with their sexual organs and at the peak of the excitement introduce a light painful slap.

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