Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ?

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Dastan -> Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 8:02:10 AM)
Hello... I hope all male subs can relate to my words and my post. I really wanted to see what is the take of the outside world on the elements of manliness. In my country, these are the definitions of what a man has to have as a skill/knowledge/experience to consider himself a person who can contribute to society, to be in the league or category of a real man, a responsible man able to do good. However, there's a sense of perspective to be had. I heard a Domme say once "any man unable to fix something isn't really much of a man as he isn't of much usefulness" and I had the idea to ask other Subs what do they think that makes a Sub a manly man to be preferred by a Domme, other than play, for a relationship, whether it's a sentimental one or a frienship-and-play one. Do you know how to Cook? how to hunt? how to fight? how to use a gun? ....have you had any survival/military training? Also, do you know how to repair a car? a computer? electrical-electronical devices /connections? plumbing and masonry/bricklaying or walls? Have you learned any musical or artistic skills ever, play an instrument, paint, sculpt, or anything else ? I have always felt that there's sort of a checklist that says if you are qualifyed to take a position as a man who can take care of himself and others, who can be a protector as well as a provider. I also know that what we may perceive as manliness comes from an external image too, and an attitude, so i now want to ask about that... ¿ Do you consider yourself submissive to the degree of being passive, or are you a strong, tough guy who can look as macho as a Clint Eastwood on a cowboy movie shootout and make a stand even if your Domme dresses you up as a French maid and plugs your butt? Is your attitude Macho, Wimpy or Sissy (no offense to the sissies, I emant the negative way of that image, not your play scene which is perfectly nice) and how does that work for you? Do Dommes enjoy you that way or they prefer a masculine man as long as he's as docile as a carriage horse pulling his weight and taking the whip ? I really want to know...

subtee -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 8:25:43 AM)
Hi, very interesting post! I'm sure you'll get many responses to the effect: some will, some won't; so do, some don't...etc. I'll look forward to responses that answer the questions, though. [;)]

OttersSwim -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 9:39:08 AM)
Manliness is not about your ability to turn a wrench, or if you choose to wear a skirt... Being a man is about having an internal sense of integrity, duty, honor, and responsibility; that you do your best to never shirk from. Being a man is about "standing" - up, for, or in front of something or someone that you care for and value - in service, in love, or in protection - even if it means personal cost to yourself. The sad thing is, there are many males out there who can turn a wrench, but have no grasp of these concepts. The interesting thing is, there are many females out there who do. [;)]

EbonyWood -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 9:47:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Manliness is not about your ability to turn a wrench, or if you choose to wear a skirt... Being a man is about having an internal sense of integrity, duty, honor, and responsibility; that you do your best to never shirk from. Being a man is about "standing" - up, for, or in front of something or someone that you care for and value - in service, in love, or in protection - even if it means personal cost to yourself. I would call these human traits, Otter, irrespective of gender. Well, maybe the traits of a good human is more accurate. I can grasp a wrench AND the concepts. Go figure. The wrench is for hitting nails, right?

OttersSwim -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 10:22:39 AM)
Without doubt, you are right Ebony. For my experience, these ideals were taught to me (largely by my mother) as the things that defined a man, and the things I should strive to incorporate into my person. They were aspects of character that I have seen in every male person in my life whom I admired.

subtee -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 10:26:11 AM)
Which makes it interesting to talk about, it seems to me, since we're all different. quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood The wrench is for hitting nails, right? EW, I'll handle the wrench if you run the ironer.

EbonyWood -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 10:28:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Which makes it interesting to talk about, it seems to me, since we're all different. quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood The wrench is for hitting nails, right? EW, I'll handle the wrench if you run the ironer. Is ''handing the wrench'' a euphamism for....?

DesFIP -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 10:30:51 AM)
Dominants who seek skills in a submissive in exchange for occasional play are not looking for a relationship per se. When people seek a full relationship, especially if it's a monogamous one, then specific skills take a back seat to compatibility in terms of morals, what you want in life, how you see yourself getting it, etc. The great cooks I know aren't also great carpenters. And vice versa. I'm sure you have many skills, if you're seeking the kind of relationship which is strictly d/s and not a primary relationship, then take time to write out all the things you can do. Even if you only can cook two things perfectly, those are worthwhile skills. So what if only your pot roast is worth talking about? If you only see her on Saturdays, then that's the day you make your great pot roast. If it's a 24/7 relationship and you get home first and start dinner, then you can always buy a cookbook for the rest of the week, or take a class in low fat cooking. Or basic auto maintenance. Skills can be acquired. Compatibility cannot.

subtee -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 10:38:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Which makes it interesting to talk about, it seems to me, since we're all different. quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood The wrench is for hitting nails, right? EW, I'll handle the wrench if you run the ironer. Is ''handing the wrench'' a euphamism for....? righty tighty, lefty loosey [;)]

littlewonder -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 3:29:28 PM)
I probably know more about home repairs, hunting, definitely computers and a few other things than Master. That doesn't make him less manly. It just means we have strengths and weaknesses in different talents. What makes him a man for me is his integrity, strength, leadership abilities, honesty, dominance over me and confidence.

antipode -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 7:40:46 PM)
quote: the elements of manliness Huh? It is a gender, not a vocation.

DVsFox -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 8:16:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dastan Hello... I hope all male subs can relate to my words and my post. I really wanted to see what is the take of the outside world on the elements of manliness. In my country, these are the definitions of what a man has to have as a skill/knowledge/experience to consider himself a person who can contribute to society, to be in the league or category of a real man, a responsible man able to do good. However, there's a sense of perspective to be had. I heard a Domme say once "any man unable to fix something isn't really much of a man as he isn't of much usefulness" and I had the idea to ask other Subs what do they think that makes a Sub a manly man to be preferred by a Domme, other than play, for a relationship, whether it's a sentimental one or a frienship-and-play one. Do you know how to Cook? how to hunt? how to fight? how to use a gun? ....have you had any survival/military training? Also, do you know how to repair a car? a computer? electrical-electronical devices /connections? plumbing and masonry/bricklaying or walls? Have you learned any musical or artistic skills ever, play an instrument, paint, sculpt, or anything else ? I have always felt that there's sort of a checklist that says if you are qualifyed to take a position as a man who can take care of himself and others, who can be a protector as well as a provider. I also know that what we may perceive as manliness comes from an external image too, and an attitude, so i now want to ask about that... ¿ Do you consider yourself submissive to the degree of being passive, or are you a strong, tough guy who can look as macho as a Clint Eastwood on a cowboy movie shootout and make a stand even if your Domme dresses you up as a French maid and plugs your butt? Is your attitude Macho, Wimpy or Sissy (no offense to the sissies, I emant the negative way of that image, not your play scene which is perfectly nice) and how does that work for you? Do Dommes enjoy you that way or they prefer a masculine man as long as he's as docile as a carriage horse pulling his weight and taking the whip ? I really want to know... Do I know how to cook? A tad Hunt? A little. Fight:? Oh yes. Use a gun? Definitely. Can I repair a car? Beyond changing a tire, no. Do I have any artistic skills? I'm a poet and a bit of a writer. I don't think these traits make me any more or less "manly" than I already am, really. DV's Fox

sexyred1 -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/26/2010 8:35:23 PM)
I agree with Otter. It has nothing to do with muscles or fixing things. It has to do with heart and character.

Dastan -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 7:09:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Manliness is not about your ability to turn a wrench, or if you choose to wear a skirt... Being a man is about having an internal sense of integrity, duty, honor, and responsibility; that you do your best to never shirk from. Being a man is about "standing" - up, for, or in front of something or someone that you care for and value - in service, in love, or in protection - even if it means personal cost to yourself. The sad thing is, there are many males out there who can turn a wrench, but have no grasp of these concepts. The interesting thing is, there are many females out there who do. [;)] Definetly agree with you..... I meant to say that there are elements that a man has to have to consider himself useful. of course, that's already assuming we start from the base foundation that he has the abilities you described. But a man with integrity, courage, honor and responsability who can't turn a wrench or have a way to provide for himself when faced with obstacles and odds of everyday life is somewhat handicapped, and that was my question... Culturally speaking, what does it take to define a man, what are the stripes of the tiger like, so to speak. But yes, we must agree to define these starting on the fact that the man we talk about has the virtues you explained.

Dastan -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 7:28:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DVsFox quote: ORIGINAL: Dastan Hello... I hope all male subs can relate to my words and my post. I really wanted to see what is the take of the outside world on the elements of manliness. In my country, these are the definitions of what a man has to have as a skill/knowledge/experience to consider himself a person who can contribute to society, to be in the league or category of a real man, a responsible man able to do good. However, there's a sense of perspective to be had. I heard a Domme say once "any man unable to fix something isn't really much of a man as he isn't of much usefulness" and I had the idea to ask other Subs what do they think that makes a Sub a manly man to be preferred by a Domme, other than play, for a relationship, whether it's a sentimental one or a frienship-and-play one. Do you know how to Cook? how to hunt? how to fight? how to use a gun? ....have you had any survival/military training? Also, do you know how to repair a car? a computer? electrical-electronical devices /connections? plumbing and masonry/bricklaying or walls? Have you learned any musical or artistic skills ever, play an instrument, paint, sculpt, or anything else ? I have always felt that there's sort of a checklist that says if you are qualifyed to take a position as a man who can take care of himself and others, who can be a protector as well as a provider. I also know that what we may perceive as manliness comes from an external image too, and an attitude, so i now want to ask about that... ¿ Do you consider yourself submissive to the degree of being passive, or are you a strong, tough guy who can look as macho as a Clint Eastwood on a cowboy movie shootout and make a stand even if your Domme dresses you up as a French maid and plugs your butt? Is your attitude Macho, Wimpy or Sissy (no offense to the sissies, I emant the negative way of that image, not your play scene which is perfectly nice) and how does that work for you? Do Dommes enjoy you that way or they prefer a masculine man as long as he's as docile as a carriage horse pulling his weight and taking the whip ? I really want to know... Do I know how to cook? A tad Hunt? A little. Fight:? Oh yes. Use a gun? Definitely. Can I repair a car? Beyond changing a tire, no. Do I have any artistic skills? I'm a poet and a bit of a writer. I don't think these traits make me any more or less "manly" than I already am, really. DV's Fox I will go ahead and use your reply, if I may, as a good example of a person who replied to my post understanding the full sense of the idea I explained.... You are undoubtedly a man, not a mere boy who can't take care of some basic skills. I consider, and in my country, it's very important, that a man has some abilities, skills, to be considered a person able to pull hiw own weight and help the people he loves carry their burden. It's a matter of capabilities, of simple power, in its material form and concretion.... Now, you can take 100 guys who are good-hearted, kind, gentle, honorable, responsible, honest, and can consider themselves able to stand for something, in front, for and against it, even if they do stand alone. I don't question these virtues, but I start my topic imagining that it is implied the person I talk about has those already covered, and now we move on to the next items of the checklist. Now, your skills do not make you less or more manly than anyone else? Perhaps, I agree that a person isn't manly or not for some reasons, although there are some guys out there who lack some skills to have a better attitude at life and they are girly, wimpy and definetly, sissy, not exactly the ephitome of the definition of man or manliness. But the fact is...even if "just a little", you can hunt, cook and handle a gun, fight and that helps you define yourself as a person able to take care of your needs if need be and also help other person cover theirs. You can only change the tire on your car...well, if you are like me, with a simple manual, you can do a lot to it except inner motor repair and specialized electrical/circuit fixes. And I draw and well, I danced and did gymnastics and I don't think it made me sissy or anything, and I did start to learn violin and flute when I was younger and well, I don't consider msyelf better than anyone else. I guess it is simply a trait that shows I have been able to explore my potential more than other who preferred to read a lot of comics and watch a lot of tv. My take on these lements is that they give me experience, and perspective to appreciate some things in life as well as allow me to get some of those things for me and the ones I love. God forbid, our war spins out of control and we must flee across a jungle, myself and my loved ones ain't going hungry, even if I can't be compared to a pro hunter or an aborigin, I'll make sure they have 1 good meal with plenty of meat at the table per day, and I will be able to cook it past the "meat on a stick" recipe of all hunters. I consider that makes me a capable man who can stand against such odds without flinching and not die trying. I consider that a guy who can't have the same skills, as good a person as he is, is a boy who like any child, becomes someone else's charge and duty, if not a burden considering his place, and role, is to be the one fixing problems, not asking for help to do so. yet i don't think it makes him less manly, or a bad person, just an incomplete one, not by fault but maybe by choice because he didn't go the extra mile exploring what he could have been. And that is simple negligent and mediocre lack of ambition and personal drive. I don't expect all men to go to the army for a couple years, sign up at the dojo in their town and start going to the woods without food and water to test their skills and rank themselves in a scale, but I do thinkt hat a real man has to know that when it's all said and done, he can talk the talk ad walk the walk even if he just imitates what he saw on a survival show on Discovery or NatGeo. Maybe it's a cultural macho image of a man, which is nowadays revisited and adds sensibility, comprehension, understanding, tolerance and emotionality to the rough and tough side of fixing, coocking, hunting and fighting things and being able to be thrown into a desert island and survive for a long time. But I guess that being a man is exactly based on the fact that evolution and history do show that the traits i exposed are the ones which define the most capable of us to don the title. No that we've defined that, I wonder, to reroute the forum back to its track....what are the elements that allow a man to stand in front of the mirror and feel proud, complete in his skills and capabilities ?

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 7:45:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I agree with Otter. It has nothing to do with muscles or fixing things. It has to do with heart and character. I dont agree, we are talking about gender which is generalisations those generalisations are to do with masculinity and assumption about what makes a man, that is different than what makes a male. As EW said the traits otter picked up on were not simply how to be a man but how to be a decent human being. Being a man is about strength, not crying at movies, being self reliant, independent, the bread winner and all the other shit that comes with gender. Gender is a construction that we have created, man and woman are ideals that are often outdated and should probably be thrown out the window so people strive to be good human beings not personifications of what their society links with their sex

OttersSwim -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 7:48:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dastan quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Manliness is not about your ability to turn a wrench, or if you choose to wear a skirt... Being a man is about having an internal sense of integrity, duty, honor, and responsibility; that you do your best to never shirk from. Being a man is about "standing" - up, for, or in front of something or someone that you care for and value - in service, in love, or in protection - even if it means personal cost to yourself. The sad thing is, there are many males out there who can turn a wrench, but have no grasp of these concepts. The interesting thing is, there are many females out there who do. [;)] Definetly agree with you..... I meant to say that there are elements that a man has to have to consider himself useful. of course, that's already assuming we start from the base foundation that he has the abilities you described. But a man with integrity, courage, honor and responsability **who can't turn a wrench or have a way to provide for himself when faced with obstacles and odds of everyday life is somewhat handicapped*, and that was my question... Culturally speaking, what does it take to define a man, what are the stripes of the tiger like, so to speak. But yes, we must agree to define these starting on the fact that the man we talk about has the virtues you explained. I don't really know anything about fixing a car, but I know exactly who to call in the event that I find myself stranded with a car that won't go. I suspect that there are very few males in the world today who have not had at least a level of basic tool training and use, a look under the hood of a car and again at least a basic understanding of the oil, water, fluid, electric, filter, light, aspects of a car. Probably not many who have never seen the inside of a toilet tank, lit a pilot light, raised a ladder to climb up onto a roof or get up on a wall, put a screw into drywall, shoveled dirt or snow, used a wheelbarrow, had a go at a leaky faucet, and on and on. Not sure that those skills define us as men per-se, but I think that one thing that does is the penchant for "responsibility" and "problem solving" and frankly "overconfidence". So if we are not blessed with a female in our lives who knows exactly how to fix a leaky faucet, and has done so before we can even offer to screw it up, we at least know who to call to get such things fixed. Certainly that penchant for "problem solving" can be an issue when dealing with issues between sexes. Typically, females tend to talk out their problems to a sympathetic friend (yes, generalization, but it holds for 99% of the women I have ever met - my Lady being one exception! [;)]). They want to be heard and understood. Guys want to "fix things", so we jump in there with helpful suggestions like "Tell her she is a raging bitch and never speak to her again! I could kill her if you like..."* when the females in our lives bring us problems to be heard not fixed. Are we not MEN!? [;)]

OttersSwim -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 8:36:31 AM)
Sorry, I had to attend to something. To finish this post then...what I am saying is that, at least in the U.S., and I suspect most western nations, females are learning, adapting, and taking on more and more of those traditional "male" things involving fixing, doing, and "being useful". And they are, in large part, adapting to these things like children learn languages...so OP your point of saying that these things are aspects of being a "man" are becoming more and more universal to "people", not just males. What I wonder is what the overall effect this will have on males. As gender roles become increasingly homogenized, how will we define ourselves? When the woman in your life can turn a wrench at least as good or better than you can, where goes the basis of the traditional male "usefulness"? How will that change how we as males interact with females? My personal belief is that is one of the reasons why we are seeing so many boys interested in more traditionally female traits and roles - gender is much more fluid than we think and society perceives that and in past times has tried to force people into strict gender roles to maintain order and what was then a "status quo". Males are in for a gender revolution of a sorts I believe. What that will look like, we are only now beginning to see in to.

sexyred1 -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 8:38:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I agree with Otter. It has nothing to do with muscles or fixing things. It has to do with heart and character. I dont agree, we are talking about gender which is generalisations those generalisations are to do with masculinity and assumption about what makes a man, that is different than what makes a male. As EW said the traits otter picked up on were not simply how to be a man but how to be a decent human being. Being a man is about strength, not crying at movies, being self reliant, independent, the bread winner and all the other shit that comes with gender. Gender is a construction that we have created, man and woman are ideals that are often outdated and should probably be thrown out the window so people strive to be good human beings not personifications of what their society links with their sex I agree.

smothrme -> RE: Elements of Manliness: How good you have to become to be a better man ? (1/27/2010 9:52:19 AM)
Wow, there are so many directions you could go on this one. I believe it is a beauty is in the eye of the beholder kind of thing for most. To me however a man would have had to had his eyes open to harsh realities for quite sometime and embraced the truth of his surroundings not closed them again out of fear or denial, this I think must take place early in his life or he will just play a role for much if not all of it. Then if he has kept them open he has a decision to make, either right or wrong, no fence sitting, or excuses , which path does he take? The easy one, full of selfishness or the more difficult one with selflessness ? You could go on and on but I believe this is the root of a man not the one between his legs. If anyone cares to check my qualifacations here we go. I am a good cook dont like to wear womens clothes I write poetry I was a quarterback, semi pro, flag till a few yrs ago I plant flowers in my garden ( when I had one) I was a private investigator ( hired by NYPD to investigate their internal affairs) yup had a gun and can fight) I cried when my father and brother died can handle most tools well and repairs like puppies and kittens was a captain of a fishing vessel I draw and paint ,mostly faces was never a follower will submit to a Woman

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