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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 2:33:18 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		As a relationship matures limits might change, tastes and desires might change...
rather than pushing limits, breaking or teaching by one or the other
i prefer to think of it as growing together

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 3:18:14 AM   
lally2


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i used to say that being compatible with someone in a purely intellectual way, humour etceterra meant that we would be compatible over the topic of limits, but that was being naive i think.

it might be because i used to go in with a 'no limits with *You*' given our shared predilictions, but i think that opens everything up far too wide in the begining.

im now at the point where i have some soft limits that can be approached and some hard limits that could maybe be nudged, if taken gently. there are some hard boiled, no way limits, but theyre the normal ethical ones.

compatibility on limits is also a bit of a fudgy one, because everyone has levels. so if youre pushing a limit with a sub what you might feel is moderate they might feel is soft or too much. so even there the compatibility with limits isnt entirely specific, ive found, anyway.

but in the end i do like to be pushed and stretched and be told that my limits will be explored, yes. but little by little, bit by bit, its a process that the D can enjoy progressing with as it evolves and i can feel that im doing my best.



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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:06:47 AM   
derangedmaniac


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/21/2009
Status: offline 		Hi,

This is my first post. I love forums, so expect to hear from me a lot! Hehe. Anyway, I think that limits are something that can be broken- as many of you before me have said. I find that limits are defined by the trust you have in your Master/Mistress. If you trust them not to harm you, if you trust they will do right, if you TRUST them then there is no need to panic. That idea of trust is the ultimate servitude, I think.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:18:35 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I am curious though why you have the belief that you have been doing it long enough to know which of your limits wouldn't change, but you assume that any submissive you got involved with would not be in that same position? I realize the whole "well the dominant makes the decisions" aspect, but really in the end, if something is a "hard" limit for one and a "must have" for the other, it seems only logical that the pair is incompatible. If the pair feels that their attraction to each other is so strong that they want to continue, the "must have" needs to be willing to go without, regardless of which side of the kneel they are on.


Probably because I can be kind of stubborn ;-) Hey at least I admit it!

In all honesty, I really think that over the last 10-15 years I pushed pretty much all my limits. Then again, maybe not. We'll have to see. This mentality I have might also be due to the fact that I often meet men who are very new to this an put up a lot of walls in the begining.

Obviously, the reason I started this discussion is because I realized this about me and I'm looking for other perspectives.

- LA

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:31:26 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

In a world where Hitler almost ruled, people kill in the name of race or religion and they had to pass laws to keep us from screwing our offspring, I pretty much have to adjust the way I look at the wording in your post. “Hard limits” are not truly “hard” and in time your limits (preferences) may change due to personal growth and environmental exposure. That includes all the worst things that may be illegal or immoral at this time, in this country . . . because somewhere, at sometime, those things were not socially immoral. That’s why we have laws against those things . . . because people did those things at one time.


You make an excellent point with this. But I am a product of the society that I live in and there are certain morals that are deeply ingrained in me. Of course, what I do is probably morally wrong to others ;-) And then we look at things like prohibition which varies from Country to Country. When I say morally wrong, I really say what is done against someone's consent, which include those that don't have the ability to consent. Maybe I should have clarified that earlier. Thanks for this note.

quote:

. . . so I don’t have “hard limits” but, I have personal preferences based on my past and current environmental exposure .


I guess I could say that. At the same time, I always found it totally ironic that even if I've had a sadistic mind ever since I was very young, I can pass out at the sight of a needle piercing flesh. Though I think I can trace back to where this phobia started. Maybe I could over come it as well... who knows.

quote:

With that in mind, I see your post ask if we also expect our submissives to obey and conform to our preferential choices.

Yes I do.

Also, if their choice is to obey my edict above their own previous personal preferences, it could'nt possibly be against their will since their will is to obey


Without making a judgement of quality, we all know that there are different levels of submission. Just look at the posts to date on this thread. There are some that set limits and some that make sure they find someone they can trust so that they don't feel they have to.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:31:30 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		I have hard limits because they either go against my morals, they frighten the life out of me and could even be a phobia or they absolutely turn me off.

The last ones interesting because I suppose thats the one that could be pushed. The problem with pushing a limit like that though, is it would most likely turn me off the very person that was using his powers of persuasion to do it.

When I first get to know a submissive I look at their limits closely. Why do they have those limits? what do those limits mean to them? more often than not they won't actually tell me that its because it just plain turns them off. They think its got to be more serious than that but hang on a minute... An absolute turn off is very serious isn't it? Then you get the sub that says 'well it does nothing for me at all but Ill do it for you Mistress'. I just want to say to those people 'NO THANKS.. now go away. Go on scoot'
Plain, clear two way communication is whats needed here if anything is going to ever evolve out of any of this. Of course we change and what may frighten us today may turn us on tomorrow but with out understanding the depth of anyone's limits, its all hopeless.

When we start a relationship or whatever you want to call it, we base it on similar interests. I for example am not going to get together with a submissive that wants to be a school girl/boy and run around getting spanked all the time and likewise, a school boy/girl is not going to look twice at someone who gets off on urethral electrical sounds and sticking pins in them!
There has to be an initial interest, a curiosity and that curiosity may or may not go on to become something that we both partake in tomorrow, next month of years from now.



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(in reply to lally2)
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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:33:45 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

im now at the point where i have some soft limits that can be approached and some hard limits that could maybe be nudged, if taken gently. there are some hard boiled, no way limits, but theyre the normal ethical ones.


I like this, a continuum of limits :-)

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:35:30 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

This is my first post. I love forums, so expect to hear from me a lot! Hehe. Anyway, I think that limits are something that can be broken- as many of you before me have said. I find that limits are defined by the trust you have in your Master/Mistress. If you trust them not to harm you, if you trust they will do right, if you TRUST them then there is no need to panic. That idea of trust is the ultimate servitude, I think.


Good first post and welcome to the boards!

I think the men that I've dated have had that attitude and since I am trustworthy (a totally subjective statement I know, but this is also the feedback I get), I guess this has been possible.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 4:40:56 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I have hard limits because they either go against my morals, they frighten the life out of me and could even be a phobia or they absolutely turn me off.

The last ones interesting because I suppose thats the one that could be pushed. The problem with pushing a limit like that though, is it would most likely turn me off the very person that was using his powers of persuasion to do it.


Let me give you an example of this. I've met many men who are new (and not so new) to this and say "No way, no hell something is going up my ass". I tend to have a little inner giggle when I hear that, all the while keeping a straight face. Of course a statement such as that one is often deeply rooted in homophobia. It might also be linked to a bad experience, I am aware. So I'm not idiot. I won't tie him up and put a strap-on on one night and say "ok honey, we are going to push one of your limits". I do it with a ton of conversation, exploring, wait for him to be in the mood and then wiggle my pinky and say "but it's so little" and wink.

Baby steps have turned phobias into desires...

- LA

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 5:06:24 AM   
twistedreality


Posts: 64
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		I wanted to respond to LadyAngelika's post, regarding "baby steps have turned phobias into desires". From my own experience, baby steps can do this if it is done with patience (often great patience)  and trust. having your limits twisted is a sign of true submission. Though, I detest the allegation that men who do not want to be sodomized are homophobic. It is what it is. Or, I should probably say, it was what it was. So many limits I thought were hard, I have found were not.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 5:18:15 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		I'm with juliaoceania and NuevaVida here, in that I would rather have someone get to know me as me them over discussing hard limits.

It's like when I'm a submissive developing a relationship with a dominant and they ask me 'What are you into?' or 'What do you enjoy?' Er... submitting. I mean if we were doing things because I enjoyed something then I wouldn't be submitting, would I?

However for the main part hard limits and safe words haven't been part of my relationships, because I've had wonderful dommes who made the effort to get to know me, allowing me to get to know them, so they pretty much sussed out what my hard limits were on their own, why they were hard limits and what was likely to happen if they were pushed.

And there were memorable times too for being a service submissive I was introduced to a number of kinks and not only was it reassuring to know that I could submit without ever being worried about being hurt but also rewarding watching the gleam in her eyes as she could also relax and share something with me that she truly enjoyed without fearing any adverse reaction.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 5:24:40 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I have hard limits because they either go against my morals, they frighten the life out of me and could even be a phobia or they absolutely turn me off.

The last ones interesting because I suppose thats the one that could be pushed. The problem with pushing a limit like that though, is it would most likely turn me off the very person that was using his powers of persuasion to do it.


Let me give you an example of this. I've met many men who are new (and not so new) to this and say "No way, no hell something is going up my ass". I tend to have a little inner giggle when I hear that, all the while keeping a straight face. Of course a statement such as that one is often deeply rooted in homophobia. It might also be linked to a bad experience, I am aware. So I'm not idiot. I won't tie him up and put a strap-on on one night and say "ok honey, we are going to push one of your limits". I do it with a ton of conversation, exploring, wait for him to be in the mood and then wiggle my pinky and say "but it's so little" and wink.

Baby steps have turned phobias into desires...

- LA


Oh well anals another story

I hope when you eventually get that little pinky in, you say 'wow look at you big boy, your taking my whole fist'!

_____________________________

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Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 5:26:58 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		My limits are my own. Somebody else who announced they were too narrow for him and therefore he would break them would be doing so nonconsensually. It doesn't matter to me if you approve of my limits or not. What matters is that if you announce the first thing you propose to do is violate them (because you think it's a silly limit) then you've proved yourself to be someone I can't trust.

One of my hard limits is duct tape on skin. The mere thought of it makes me panicky. Doing it to me would cause a full flown panic attack. I've had dominants write and tell me this is what they would do first. Really? Your first act to prove yourself trustworthy would be to damage my health? Move on.

And I also reject the fallacy that if you do something you like, you're submitting. That's sadism not dominance, I submit when he tells me we are going out for ice cream so go get your shoes. I submit when he says he wants to go to the movies and I should pick what to see. I submit when I'm trussed up like a turkey and he decides I have to stay like that till I can't orgasm any more, ten or twenty later. Submission means I don't make the decisions, he does. And if he chooses to do something I like it is still submission because I'm not the one saying "you have to tie me up and make me cum right now".

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 6:12:08 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Dominants, is this pretty much how you see things?


For the most part. I would be less likely to develop an interest in a 'fixer upper' but it's not out of the question.


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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 6:13:29 AM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: derangedmaniac

Hi,

This is my first post. I love forums, so expect to hear from me a lot! Hehe. Anyway, I think that limits are something that can be broken- as many of you before me have said. I find that limits are defined by the trust you have in your Master/Mistress. If you trust them not to harm you, if you trust they will do right, if you TRUST them then there is no need to panic. That idea of trust is the ultimate servitude, I think.



Welcome, deranged.

I completely agree with what you've said about the role of trust. Because I trust my owner not to harm me, I don't limit him in any way. It actually goes beyond that . . . I feel I can't limit him in any way. Because I trust him that completely, I am completely his--the "ultimate servitude" you mention. For me, there is no consent anymore, I'm just his, pure and simple.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 7:32:36 AM   
jstkrs


Posts: 61
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
...
I classify hard limits into two categories 1) those that I don't find morally offensive but squick me (blood play, needles, scat) and 2) those that I find morally problematic (re: against the TOS).
When I meet any play partner, the way I say it is here is what I like to do, and here are my hard limits.
If we have the same hard limits, then we have no issues.
...
Now if his scope of hard limits is more narrow than mine, he needs to be open to exploring and expanding his hard limits. That is how I see things and I will not limit my play to cater to his limits, though I will be smart about things and ease him into things. ..
- LA

When I met my Master I was pretty much an open book, fairly new and exploring. I knew my hard limits--the ones that I found morally offensive(children, animals, anything criminal); the ones that (in my opinion at least) are unhealthy(scat, blood, etc); and the ones that could potentially be harmful to my health (physical or emotional) or physically could not do (certain types of suspension, asphyxia, humiliation).
Luckily, most of my hard limits were the same as his. Those that differed were discussed and over time, some  became soft limits.
After time, some of those soft limits I have grown to desire. This honestly surprised me--yeah, I know, but I was new and naive. 
...wait is that what you were looking for?

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 8:10:48 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

it might be because i used to go in with a 'no limits with *You*' given our shared predilictions, but i think that opens everything up far too wide in the begining.



Hi lally,

This sentence above struck me, and I kept coming back to it.  I think it's because "in the beginning" we weren't even talking about play or limits - we were getting to know each other.  He did not take (nor did I give) ownership of me until we were both well on our way in developing a relationship, and were confident in knowing and understanding each other's moral character.  Even submitting in the beginning was minimal - a very gradual and slow process.  It's what we both needed, given our histories. 

So in my particular case, there was no opening up too wide in the beginning, because we weren't even going there yet.  Even now, nearly a year later, he continues to navigate this relationship slowly forward, continuing to build trust and confidence, while letting love be the basis and foundation for all we do.

Because of that, the idea of opening up far too wide in the beginning doesn't apply for me personally, and I can see where, if people are heading rapidly into relationships and play, there would be a concern of this.  I have found that time and patience prevents too much exposure and vulnerability, too quickly - not only as far as BDSM limits go, but in all areas of a relationship.

I'm not actually disagreeing with your post, but in reading it, I could understand the process he and I took, and why that was not an issue for us.


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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 8:23:07 AM   
UniqueRaven


Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		In the Owner/property dynamic i engage in, my limits are his limits - in otherwords, there is a mindset on both of our parts that i have no limits with him, as he owns them all. It's quite peaceful for me this way, and much more fun for him.

That said, in the process of getting to know a new Owner (such as i am now), i ask him what his limits are, and i see if they are in line with what i know i really couldn't do (i.e., deathplay, TOS-violating sorts of things). So in a sense i do have limits, which i am fully aware of, i'm just seeking someone who holds those limits himself so that i don't have to hold on to them any more, if that makes sense. He'll hold them for us both.

There are things which scare the living you-know-what out of me that i would find very, very hard to do. i do tell him these things so that he is aware. However "no" is not in my vocabulary with my Owner, and if/when he chooses to do those things i would trust him as i know he would value his ownership of me (and love me too).

If he chose to engage in play that was extremely dangerous to me, or permanently harmful to me, i would reconsider the Ownership and perhaps ultimately ask for release. So that can be considered a limit as well - but again, it's all about the mindset.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 8:49:06 AM   
jstkrs


Posts: 61
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		When discussing pushing limits, I often reaffirm my trust in him by saying, "I know you won't break your toys."
He answers with a sadistic grin, "No, but I'll bend it a little."
Always gives me happy chills.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 8:56:34 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
All I can say is that my Owner has stretched his limits in regards to me, and I am very glad of that.

That's great. Obviously he had not reached his potential hard limits yet.




But he had, that's my point. He altered what had previously been a hard limit, taking it and turning it into something else. Sometimes I feel guilty that he stepped over his line for me but at the same time I am very glad that he did because we wouldn't be together otherwise.

Just as many s-types push themselves (or have themselves pushed) through a hard or soft limit in order to expand the relationship, my D-type did that for me/us to expand our relationship.

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