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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 6:21:27 PM

Jeffff

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>

This is from Barry Ritholz ...... hardly a leftist motherfucker

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 1/29/2010 6:23:16 PM >

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 6:34:16 PM

Jeffff

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Gentlemen, there are the numbers. Let the Obfuscation begin!

Jeff

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 7:07:27 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Alas, magic money doesn't fall from the sky. And not all spending can or should be cut.

We have programs for good reason. Even the most cynical observer can point to necessary spending.

It will also take increased revenue. The Reagan magic trickle doesn't work. We've already tried that.

We've tried it at least 3 times, and every time it has worked.

No, it hasn't.

Reagan tried it. It didn't work. The national debt quadrupled. We went from the largest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor nation in the world in just eight years, with 25% of U.S. assets owned by foreign interests. Even his own economic team admitted it was a failure. The stock market crashed in '87.

The first Bush tried it. He even proclaimed "Read my lips. No new taxes." It didn't work. He had to raise taxes. Unemployment was at double digits. '90-'91 saw recession. 747 Savings & Loans failed, and the taxpayers bailed them out.

The second Bush tried it. Following deficit reduction during the Clinton years, the deficit soared again. The Fed bought its way out of two recessions. Bush left office a year into a third, with no place left to cut interest rates. Another banking crisis. Another bailout. Double digit unemployment.

Works real well--for the few people at the top of the widening gulf between rich and poor each time this happens.

The rest of America just gets "trickled on."

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 7:09:50 PM

Jeffff

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Isn't it funny how 2.3% looks different in context?

Jeff

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 9:04:38 PM

DomKen

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Always funny to see the supply siders keep on telling the same lie. No tax cut has ever resulted in increased revenue. That leaves only 2 possibilities, first the Laffer curve isn't real and all economics theory based on it should be abandoned or that no tax has ever been high enough to be past the peak of the curve.

IOW the Laffer curve, the foundation of all supply side economics, is completely without real world evidence and anyone supporting supply side economics is a liar and ideologue.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 9:15:27 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Always funny to see the supply siders keep on telling the same lie. No tax cut has ever resulted in increased revenue. That leaves only 2 possibilities, first the Laffer curve isn't real and all economics theory based on it should be abandoned or that no tax has ever been high enough to be past the peak of the curve.

IOW the Laffer curve, the foundation of all supply side economics, is completely without real world evidence and anyone supporting supply side economics is a liar and ideologue.

You embarassed yourself badly over the Laffer curve before you ran and hid. Dont do it again. (embarass yourself I mean, I could give a fuck if you ran and hid again, you contribute nothing)

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 10:50:35 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Always funny to see the supply siders keep on telling the same lie. No tax cut has ever resulted in increased revenue. That leaves only 2 possibilities, first the Laffer curve isn't real and all economics theory based on it should be abandoned or that no tax has ever been high enough to be past the peak of the curve.

IOW the Laffer curve, the foundation of all supply side economics, is completely without real world evidence and anyone supporting supply side economics is a liar and ideologue.

You embarassed yourself badly over the Laffer curve before you ran and hid. Dont do it again. (embarass yourself I mean, I could give a fuck if you ran and hid again, you contribute nothing)

WTF are you lying about now? The last time you dared support Laffer and supply side economics I showed you didn't know what you were talking about.

However if you care to go again then answer this simple question, which tax cut ever proved the Laffer curve? It is the foundation of supply side economics so it should be trivial to show a tax cut that resulted in an immediate increase in tax revenue. Put up or shut up.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 1/29/2010 10:51:00 PM >

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/29/2010 10:59:26 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Alas, magic money doesn't fall from the sky. And not all spending can or should be cut.

We have programs for good reason. Even the most cynical observer can point to necessary spending.

It will also take increased revenue. The Reagan magic trickle doesn't work. We've already tried that.

We've tried it at least 3 times, and every time it has worked.

Any chance at all that for once you could back your statements with some facts?

Nah.............nevermind..............I know that's asking too much.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 5:49:21 AM

Jeffff

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The Chart killed the thread...:)

Jeff

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 11:24:30 AM

luckydawg

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You mean the chart that has nothing at all to do with the deficit?

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 11:26:57 AM

Jeffff

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I mean the Chart that illustrates Job creation. It was in response to a post about job creation.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 11:29:25 AM

Jeffff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Youre joking right? Not only didnt it crash and burn, it survived the Clinton recession and 9/11 and grew over 2.5% per year despite them until the Dem engineered housing bubble burst. Unemployment during his adminstration was lower than unemployment under Clinton, who had the benefit of a fictitious dot com economy, and at least had the good sense to cut capital gains taxes. The Dow continued the growth started by the Reagan tax cuts and reached its all time high.

Crashed and burned, roflmfao.

This one specifically

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 12:22:32 PM

Jeffff

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Incidently LD, here is a link for a deficit Chart for you.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 1:55:11 PM

eyesopened

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I know I'm not as smart as y'all but I dunno, it seems like you can sell a donut for a dollar profit and still make a lot of money if you can sell a whole lotta donuts. You don't necessarily have to raise taxes if you can just get more people to pay some taxes. If people aren't working, they ain't paying taxes. When people do work, the do pay taxes. At least that's always been the way it's been for me personally. I didn't pay taxes when I was unemployed.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 4:55:14 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Alas, magic money doesn't fall from the sky. And not all spending can or should be cut.

We have programs for good reason. Even the most cynical observer can point to necessary spending.

It will also take increased revenue. The Reagan magic trickle doesn't work. We've already tried that.

We've tried it at least 3 times, and every time it has worked.

Any chance at all that for once you could back your statements with some facts?

Nah.............nevermind..............I know that's asking too much.

you can start here

cue up the ad hominen replies

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 1/30/2010 4:56:12 PM >

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 5:17:02 PM

Jeffff

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Thats a nice Op-Ed piece. The premise seems to be that people who cheat on their taxes at a higher percentage won't cheat at a lower percentage?

Jeff

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 5:25:18 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Thats a nice Op-Ed piece. The premise seems to be that people who cheat on their taxes at a higher percentage won't cheat at a lower percentage?

Jeff

It has nothing to do with "Cheating". When tax rates are lowered the incentive to use and the cost effectiveness of tax shelters are reduced. Thats a minor impact though. The primary impetus comes from increasing the after tax value of investment opportunities, which increases investment. Thats why capital gains tax rate reductions have the biggest impact, as proven by prior capital gains reductions (including that staunch conserative Bill Clinton) and increases (1986 Tax Reform).

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 5:39:26 PM

Fellow

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Coming back to the original post:

quote:

Myth: Obama is to blame for the 2009 deficit
FACT: Majority of FY 2009 deficit attributed to Bush policies

Myth: Health care reform is too expensive, given the deficit
FACT: CBO projected Senate, House health bills would reduce deficit

Myth: Wars, tax cuts don't count toward current deficit and debt projections
FACT: Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush tax cuts contributed significantly to debt

Myth: Deficit reduction would help to create jobs
FACT: Past efforts to address deficits before full recovery cited for further economic decline; economists say deficits are helping

Baker: Stock market, housing crashes, and wars "explain the vast majority of the deterioration in the budget situation in the last decade."

These are not really myths or facts but debatable viewpoints.
1. It was Obama decision to feed the banksters, The economic stimulus bad design and so on....
2. Only fool without any common sense would believe the health care bill does not increase health spending.
3. Tax cut stimulates the economy (ask any economist).
4. Debt servicing takes somewhere 600 billion/year. The money would definitely help to create jobs and stimulate economy.

This is an interesting debate between "keynesian clowns" and fiscal conservative reformers. the clowns just "saved the economy". How real it was will be seen very soon.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 7:30:57 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The primary impetus comes from increasing the after tax value of investment opportunities, which increases investment. Thats why capital gains tax rate reductions have the biggest impact, as proven by prior capital gains reductions (including that staunch conserative Bill Clinton) and increases (1986 Tax Reform).

The last I heard, it was about 50/50 - it didn't have that effect every time.

I remember when folks said these reductions would result in great benefits to the taxpayer, since so many people owned stocks. What wasn't mentioned was the fact that most of that stock was in 401ks. If you had a whopping bunch of stock you benefited and that usually meant you were rich. Much of that "investment" was in vacation homes, boats, etc.

The only tax credit I saw (in the tech industry) that changed corporate investment was the R&D tax credit.

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RE: Myths and falsehoods about the deficit - 1/30/2010 7:54:54 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

These are not really myths or facts but debatable viewpoints.
1. It was Obama decision to feed the banksters, The economic stimulus bad design and so on....
2. Only fool without any common sense would believe the health care bill does not increase health spending.
3. Tax cut stimulates the economy (ask any economist).
4. Debt servicing takes somewhere 600 billion/year. The money would definitely help to create jobs and stimulate economy.

This is an interesting debate between "keynesian clowns" and fiscal conservative reformers. the clowns just "saved the economy". How real it was will be seen very soon.

Starting with point 1, no. Bush's Treasury secretary begged--literally--for this.

Point 2 is more complex than that. Health care costs are spiraling ever upward. The status quo is unsustainable. Yet we do nothing.

Point 3 is true under certain circumstances. Bush cut taxes--and had three recessions (we're just slowly getting out of the third). During the Clinton boom, Republicans said we should cut taxes. Why? To further stimulate a booming economy?

Point 4 is true--and that's the problem created by the deficits Bush (and others) ran up. And what you've just said is that spending will stimulate the economy--and it will (ask any economist).

The point is that the overall picture is more complicated than abstract isolated principles. The "Keynesian Clowns" ran things well for 50 years with one exception---they were happy to stimulate the economy in bust times, but loathe to contract it during booms. Conservative "reformers" did no better--they were happy to pursue expansionary tax cutting, but loathe to balance it with contractionary policy during economic upturns. Both approaches, never saving and always cutting revenue and increasing spending, are to blame for deficits and poor economic policy.

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