Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 3:49:54 PM)

The beginning of the article (from NPR):

When a co-worker told him that he believed Neil Armstrong's 1969 moon walk actually took place on a Hollywood soundstage, journalist David Aaronovitch was appalled. Aaronovitch had seen the moon landing on TV when he was a kid, and he couldn't believe anyone would think it was a hoax.

"He told me about the photographs that don't make sense, and the stars that aren't there, and the flag flapping in the nonexistent breeze, and so on," Aaronovitch tells Guy Raz.

At the time, Aaronovitch wasn't prepared with evidence to counter his co-worker's claim, but today he is. Aaronovitch spent six years looking into the details behind top conspiracy theories such as the faked Apollo moon landing and has come out with a new book to forensically debunk each of them.

Aaronovitch's rebuttal is called Voodoo Histories: The Role of the Conspiracy Theory in Shaping Modern History. In the book, Aaronovitch tackles the intriguing question of why well-educated, reasonable people sometimes believe "perfectly ridiculous things." (Read a list, from Aaronovitch's book, of a few of the common characteristics shared by many conspiracy theories.)

-rest of the article-

[FYI -- David Aaronovitch writes a column for The Times newspaper in London. In 2001 he won the George Orwell Prize for political journalism.]





NorthernGent -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 3:55:02 PM)

I'd say one factor underpins conspiracy theories/religion/communism etc....

The idea that there is something bigger going on........henceforth affording people a reason for being.



pahunkboy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 3:58:10 PM)

What are you talking about?

Of course we been to the moon.  Why do you think we have technology?

Lets not confuse this post with the government- greed- corruption and false flags- where incompetence is rewarded with even more money the past 10 years.

What do YOU think they are telling you when we passed TARP?

Like what do you really think that TARP and 2 wars are about?

??

Never mind.     You are a cheerleader for the banana republic.



NorthernGent -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 4:00:27 PM)

Just out of interest here......why does anyone care whether or not someone's been to the moon?

Surely there's enough going on on earth to keep people occupied?



Musicmystery -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 4:03:07 PM)

quote:

What are you talking about?

Of course we been to the moon. 


Dude, what are YOU talking about?

I posted a story about an interesting book. Read past the lede. The book isn't about the moon.



Thadius -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 4:09:16 PM)

Tim,

Thanks for the heads up. It looks like an interesting read.

As always,
Thadius



pahunkboy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 4:11:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What are you talking about?

Of course we been to the moon. 


Dude, what are YOU talking about?

I posted a story about an interesting book. Read past the lede. The book isn't about the moon.



On that-  lets un-black out the 22 pages that was omitted from the 911 commissions report- then we can talk.  The government would not let 22 pages of the findings get released.

Weather the government was behind it- or not- - well- what I see is a massive reward for incompetence.  The govt goofed and that made for a cascade of new monies for homeland security.  A financial reward.
...for incompetence.

Next throw in the 2.3 trillion $  "missing" per the military.  No one gets punished.

Then we have the financial mess where the ones who goofed do not go to jail- they get bail outs and bonuses.

So- of course people are going to ask alot of questions... because at some point this real money has to be paid. 



NihilusZero -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 4:13:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The idea that there is something bigger going on........henceforth affording people a reason for being.

And, even more powerful, the idea that they have uncovered the mastermind plot.



AnimusRex -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 5:50:26 PM)

Tim-
Thanks for the link-
I find urban legends and consipracy theories fascinating, for what they tell us about human nature. I am a fan of Snopes.com and one thing they point out often is how the most persistant urban legends and myths are the ones that have a moral that matches what we already think we know, or what should happen. So stories of greed get their comeuppance, fears of strangers are validated, and so on.

What is so frustrating about political conspiracy theories as I mentioned once before, there is so much malfeasance and dishonesty going on, in broad daylight, printed on the front page of every newspaper, that it makes faked moon landings seem like small potatoes.

There was a small scarcely noticed news article a few months back that documented that many of the floor speeches so earnestly given by Congressmen were in fact written by lobbyists.

That this happened was a scandal, that it barely attracted attention is an outrage. But at the time we were consumed by arguments over Death Panels and someone's birth certificate, so a report of deep and pervasive corruption of the political process was considered unremarkable.



Musicmystery -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 6:12:06 PM)

Hi Animus,

I actually started a thread about that--the same information from 42 Republicans and Democrats, same lobbyists--and it iply dropped quickly without comment here too. If it wasn't one party bashing the other, they weren't interested.

Live well,

Tim



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 6:36:50 PM)

It dropped because no one cares who wrote the speeches, a lobbyist or a staffer who met with a lobbyist. There is nothing wrong per se with lobbying, it is expressing an opinion. If they are convincing enough to sway the legislator, who wrote the words is irrelevant. It is only when there is a quid pro quo for the legislators decision that there is a problem. Nothing in the reports on those speeches supported that.

Do you think Obama writes all his speeches? Do you think any of them are written in part by former lobbyists that he said wouldnt have in his administration?



Jeffff -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 6:42:32 PM)

It could be argued that in a representational government, the only lobbying should be done by the constituency.

They give pretty shitty junkets though.

Very few things bother me more than a politician voting his "conscience"



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 6:48:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It could be argued that in a representational government, the only lobbying should be done by the constituency.

They give pretty shitty junkets though.

Very few things bother me more than a politician voting his "conscience"


Lobbyists are part of the constituency regardless of their situs, because every legislator has potential impact on every jurisdiction.



Musicmystery -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 7:05:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

It dropped because no one cares who wrote the speeches, a lobbyist or a staffer who met with a lobbyist. There is nothing wrong per se with lobbying, it is expressing an opinion. If they are convincing enough to sway the legislator, who wrote the words is irrelevant. It is only when there is a quid pro quo for the legislators decision that there is a problem. Nothing in the reports on those speeches supported that.

Do you think Obama writes all his speeches? Do you think any of them are written in part by former lobbyists that he said wouldnt have in his administration?


I agree with what you say here, but that's different from 42 congress folk, half Democrat, half Republican, parroting the same speeches, as if debate. It's a coup for the lobbyist. I've written promotion, and I'd be throwing myself a party.

And on this issue, I care.



Jeffff -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 7:08:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It could be argued that in a representational government, the only lobbying should be done by the constituency.

They give pretty shitty junkets though.

Very few things bother me more than a politician voting his "conscience"


Lobbyists are part of the constituency regardless of their situs, because every legislator has potential impact on every jurisdiction.



Theoretically that would be a good thing. In practice it doesn't seem quite so noble.

Jeff



Musicmystery -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 7:09:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The idea that there is something bigger going on........henceforth affording people a reason for being.

And, even more powerful, the idea that they have uncovered the mastermind plot.



There's also, I think, that people would rather believe cool ideas than simply the truth. It's a lot more fun.

Have you guys seen this TED talk, Why People Believe Strange Things? Especially the end, the Stairway to Heaven backwards messages--we think we see and hear for ourselves, but truth is, we see and hear readily what we're told to look for.

Heads up for marketing and politics.



thornhappy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 7:19:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Next throw in the 2.3 trillion $  "missing" per the military.  No one gets punished.

Hey, several of us here have explained how that happens, including Ron (without even a mention of a blowjob).  You try integrating all those IT systems and see how fast it can be done.

Oops, forgot something.  A lot of the  believers remind me of what I heard once about the old "mystery" religions of Rome - you had a small group of people convinced they were unique due to their secret knowledge which was hidden from the larger society.



AnimusRex -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 8:47:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
we think we see and hear for ourselves, but truth is, we see and hear readily what we're told to look for.


Its like space alien stories. Most space alien stories have details and features that are remarkably like science fiction stories, or have technology that is just slightly ahead of current technology.

For instance, there were several abduction stories in the 1960's (Betty and Barney Hill being the most famous) wherein the aliens stuck a steel probe into a woman to determine if she was pregnant; coincidently, amniocentesis was a then-cutting edge technology. Of course, even now we have non-invasive ways of seeing inside the body, so the notion that an alien culture would be so primitive to need to invade the body with a steel probe, is ludicrous.

Spaceships from stories in the 1940's were usually streamlined in shape, not dissimilar to WWII airplanes; but after the Apollo moon program showed that crafts that moved through the vaccuum of space didn't need to be streamlined, stories from the 1970's described spacecraft that had odd jutting protrusions and angles, kind of like those shown in Star Wars.

Our essential nature is to solve problems, and define things that are ambiguous; so when we see shadows and hear strange noises, we give them a definition that fits some sort of narrative.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 9:42:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

It dropped because no one cares who wrote the speeches, a lobbyist or a staffer who met with a lobbyist. There is nothing wrong per se with lobbying, it is expressing an opinion. If they are convincing enough to sway the legislator, who wrote the words is irrelevant. It is only when there is a quid pro quo for the legislators decision that there is a problem. Nothing in the reports on those speeches supported that.

Do you think Obama writes all his speeches? Do you think any of them are written in part by former lobbyists that he said wouldnt have in his administration?


I agree with what you say here, but that's different from 42 congress folk, half Democrat, half Republican, parroting the same speeches, as if debate. It's a coup for the lobbyist. I've written promotion, and I'd be throwing myself a party.

And on this issue, I care.


I dont see the difference if the speeches reflect their opinions. While I havent read the speeches, my guess is also that "parroting" is an exaggerated description. E.g. you will see accusations on this board of people parroting so and so's talking points when the person posting may never have even heard so and so on that topic. There are only so many ways to say the same thing.



Musicmystery -> RE: Debunking Conspiracy Theories In "Voodoo Histories" (1/30/2010 10:42:25 PM)

Given that the Dems and Reps are voting in blocks on this, on opposite sides, if the speeches reflect their opinions, that's another issue that bugs me.

This stuff belongs on that other thread, though, not this one.



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