RE: USA and The Third Reich (Full Version)

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InvisibleBlack -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 5:58:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The Passing Of The Great race by Madison Grant, which when translated into German in 1930, he received a letter from a foreign politician stating that Grant's book was his Bible, that foreign politician was Adolf Hitler and it is said that Grant's book formed the basis of Hitler's Third Reich...

So, because of  Madison Grant's beliefs and writings, the world had the Third Reich and what happened in that regime, but the question is when Hitler was doing what he was doing to those he saw as inferior, what was the thought in USA and the UK at that time, horror, or something different based on the eugenic education  of the time ?


Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and 1926 and it already contained Hitler's anti-Jewish screed. Hitler admired Grant's work because it "confirmed" what he'd already published, not because it changed his mind on anything.




Aneirin -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 6:14:24 PM)

So in short, Othrodox Jews are by nature intolerant of other people not of their own belief. Where someone not of orthodox Jewish belief holds out their hand in friendship, could it be, it is not wanted, turned away because it is considered unclean, meaning the person making the effort is unclean.

If that is so, I can now understand why Jews are a target for nearly every other belief, a religion where they believe by the belief they are God's chosen, they are superior to everyone else, to me, that is not conducive to living in harmony with others, they can't, they won't..

Could it be said that by Orthodox Jewish beliefs of superiority, they set themselves up for the persecution they from time to time receive. ?

But on another track,  if the common thought is the Jews have a history of being persecuted, would anyone take any notice if it came to be the reverse in modern times, or is it, in common thought Jews cannot persecute others not of their belief ?




mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 6:18:15 PM)

i've always thought the USA "WAS" The Third Reich




Jeffff -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 6:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
i've always thought the USA "WAS" The Third Reich


Not until they start rounding up all the sports-hating gays.


Jeff




mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 6:34:23 PM)

well, i'm safe then, since i have never been and never shall be gay.and, btw jefff (and everyone else that's been stalking me) go find someone else to pester and leave me the fuck alone.




samboct -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 7:05:12 PM)

"Could it be said that by Orthodox Jewish beliefs of superiority, they set themselves up for the persecution they from time to time receive. ?

Yup.

But on another track,  if the common thought is the Jews have a history of being persecuted, would anyone take any notice if it came to be the reverse in modern times, or is it, in common thought Jews cannot persecute others not of their belief ?

I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at- but as far as I'm concerned, being a member of a persecuted minority does not give you the right to persecute others- two wrongs don't make a right.

Sam




Aneirin -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/8/2010 11:13:38 PM)

Oh, just this ;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8180413.stm

this ;

http://www.middle-east-online.com/English/?id=25056

this ;

http://farmingunderfire.blogspot.com/2009/09/list-of-palestinian-farmers-other.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZ-8ZzmfAk

and many other reports past and present and undoubtedly unless they have a change of heart, the future. Israel and it's activities is not making the Jews look very good and with that, those countries that support Israel, well, innocent people are cheap, and of no real interest to those that support Israel for whatever it is they are getting or hope to get from the situation ( a retirement plan perhaps). Jerusalem, where Islam meet Judaism and Christianity, the front line between the two beliefs, (some  Arabs refer to Christians as Nazrenes) and the front line between the Middle East and the West. As tensions rise neighbouring countries become interested and threats are made and before long we are all, religious and non religious going to be drawn into something very bad and all that for a belief.

If Bush and Blair used human rights as a reason to stride into Iraq, then they would have had no qualms about doing the same to Israel, or would they.




DomKen -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 1:24:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

"The fact is that most Jews weren't wealthy or even successful. They lived much like, and in most cases side by side with, their christian neighbors. "

Sorry- but there are a bunch of misconceptions in this thread that need to be straightened out.  Let me try to answer some of the question based on my knowledge of the history and as a personal example of being a very reformed Jew at Brandeis University and coming into contact with Conservative and Orthodox Jews.

In terms of whether Jew resembled their neighbors- hardly.  They were a merchant class for several reasons through the middle ages-
1)  Jews weren't allowed to own land in many countries- thus they weren't farmers like most of their neighbors.
2)  Rates of literacy amongst Jews were very high- probably the inverse of the rest of the population- somewhere around 90%.
3)  Christians weren't allowed to be moneylenders- but it was an occupation open to Jews.

Hence- Jews handled most of the commerce of the Middle Ages, and not surprisingly, got wealthier than their neighbors.

Jews also lived in ghettos- walled cities.  Ghetto was not considered a pejorative term originally since it was used to help keep the rabble out.

A lot of that is simply wrong. Until at least the start of the 20th century most eastern and central european jews lived in rural communities, the famous shtetl. They were farmers and rural tradesmen just like their christian neighbors.

Yes, some jews live in ghettos, walled sections of otherwise christian towns not seperate towns. If you do the research these populations were very small compared to the total jewish population. American jews are disproprortionally drawn from teh ghettoes do to the economics of emigration. Dirt poor farmers don't buy tickets on steamers. Jews in Israel are a much better representation of the demographics of pre WW2 european jews and there you wil find most are descended from rural jews.

quote:

Jewish interactions with their neighbors can best be described as intolerant in all likelihood.  Yes, I know this isn't PC, but like any tribal people that seek to maintain an independent existence, the religion/culture had strict rules about fraternization and lack thereof. Jews, like a lot of others in this situation, considered themselves the "Chosen".  Jewish men weren't supposed to sleep with non-Jewish women because they were considered "unclean"- always a good characterization of somebody that's just not quite as human as you're supposed to be.  Needless to say, Jewish women also weren't supposed to be touched by non-Jewish men.  There's a lot of these strictures wrapped up in the Kosher dietary laws.  In practice- let's say your good Christian neighbors did the normal welcome to the neighborhood bit- and brought over food- perhaps something they'd baked- a chicken- whatever.  Didn't matter- never mind that pork was right out- basically anything was out because it might not have been dealt with in a kosher fashion under strict rabbinical supervision.  You know how it feels when you try to welcome someone and they won't accept your food, your wine, even your hand?  It gets you pretty annoyed with them in short order.  I know this first hand, because the kids I went to school with said I wasn't a Jew since I didn't follow the same rules as they did, and I felt that kind of anger.  Who were they to tell me I wasn't a Jew?  Who were they to look down their noses at me because I didn't believe in not drinking water and taking a shower on Yom Kippur?  Deal with the Hasids in New York, and you'll get pretty aggravated with them in short order in all likelihood.

This belies the fact that jews and christians lived cheek by jowl in many european communities very successfully for centuries. As a matter of fact in towns large enough to have fire brigades and the like it was quite common that the two communities had a standing arrangement in regards to providing such services to the other on the respective sabbath and holy days.

While intermarriage was discouraged it quite obviously did occur. It actually must have occurred with frequency considering how genetically distinct Ashkenazai are from Sephardi and Mizrahi.

It should be further noted that in Poland, where 1 in 10 were jewish before ww2, there are many thousands of stories of non jews aiding jews in hiding or escaping from the Nazis and Soviets. More than 6000 of those people's stories are well documented enough and rise to the level set by Yad Vashem to be named Righteous among the Nations. That's the most of any nation and more than 25% of the total. IOW people who lived beside and among the jews were willing to risk their lives, aiding jews was a capital offence in poland during the nazi occupation, for the jews.




eyesopened -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 3:11:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

So in short, Othrodox Jews are by nature intolerant of other people not of their own belief. Where someone not of orthodox Jewish belief holds out their hand in friendship, could it be, it is not wanted, turned away because it is considered unclean, meaning the person making the effort is unclean.

If that is so, I can now understand why Jews are a target for nearly every other belief, a religion where they believe by the belief they are God's chosen, they are superior to everyone else, to me, that is not conducive to living in harmony with others, they can't, they won't..

Could it be said that by Orthodox Jewish beliefs of superiority, they set themselves up for the persecution they from time to time receive. ?

But on another track,  if the common thought is the Jews have a history of being persecuted, would anyone take any notice if it came to be the reverse in modern times, or is it, in common thought Jews cannot persecute others not of their belief ?



Judism is not a religion.  It is not open for anyone to just believe in God the way a Jew does to be Jewish.  Judism is an Identity.  It encompases more than just religion, it is an identitiy that allows all Jews to be unified regardless of what country they live in.  The Old Testament is a book about how a group of slaves from different backgrounds came together to form a People.   This is not always easy to understand.  The laws and commandments in the Old Testament is more like a constitution than a religion.  Again, this is not easy to understand.  Setting themselves apart was a way to maintain an Identity.  Judism teaches to be nice to non-Jews to remember how they were treated as slaves in Egypt.  It is totally against their beliefs to persecute others.




samboct -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 6:31:07 AM)

"Israel and it's activities is not making the Jews look very good and with that, those countries that support Israel, well, innocent people are cheap, and of no real interest to those that support Israel for whatever it is they are getting or hope to get from the situation ( a retirement plan perhaps)."

Hi Ken

Wow- learn something new every day.  You're right- my perceptions of European Jewry are based largely on US immigrants and also what you find in museums in Europe.  But come to think of it, my great grand pop was a blacksmith in a little village in Russia- he split when the Cossacks tried to "enlist" him into the army- threw them both into a river while whizzing-went back, grabbed his preggers wife and took off.  Don't know how he boarded a steamship-they must have had enough money for steerage.

But I'm pretty sure about the higher literacy rates back in the 1500-1800s- the rest of the stuff you learn in Sunday school, but of course isn't necessarily a high grade of scholarship.

Aneirin

From my perspective- and perhaps I'm being a wee bit paranoid, seems that the title of this thread is a teeny bit misleading...

Sorry- but the UK has got some very bloody hands on this one historically.  The bellyache that Israeli actions aren't making Jews look good is nothing compared to the the actions of the UK pre WWII and post WWII. 

According to the moral standard you're setting up- Jews look good when they're getting killed- but trying to defend themselves is not acceptable.  Well, I think this is ridiculous.  Until the Arabs decide that its OK for Jews to exist in Israel, there's gonna be crap like this.  Until then, there will be bloody skirmishes and conflict.  Israel is a skinny little piece of land, the size of NJ- but it's heavily fortified and the citizens have gotten very pro active in their defense.  Yes, innocents are suffering.  Does it make it right?  Nope.  But does that give the English the right to criticize without owning up to their own actions?  Nope- not in my book.

The foundation of Israel is no more moral than the founding of the US, displacing native peoples.  Doesn't mean that Israel is right- I gave up on supporting Israel when I learned that it's basically an apartheid system.  But UK whining about the plight of the poor Palestinians is rather ironic given that the UK basically set up a lot of this current mess and has done damn all to stop it.  The UK can criticize Israeli actions when they come clean, tell the Arabs that they promised Israel to both the Palestinians and the Jews, but the Jews have a right to exist, and to quit attacking them.  Until there is strong UK condemnation of the Arab goal to throw the Jews into the sea- the English should shut up.

Sam




DomKen -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 7:23:29 AM)

No argument on the literacy rate. Men had to read enough Hebrew to perform their Bar Mitzvah.

As to the British they mishandled the breakup of their empire in a fashion that almost suggests actual malice. Israel/Palestine, Kashmir and Saudi Arabia and the Persian gulf states are all areas seemingly designed to cause intractable conflict forever.




Aneirin -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 5:09:33 PM)

The English you refer to, is not the man on the street, it was once again, the elite, the same elite that exists in every country and from the safe shores of their country, they mess in the politics of other places and when conflict arises, they send others erstwhile man on the street,  to spill their blood on foreign lands for the elite's goals and pleasure.

I will condemn my country's actions, I do and I have every right to,the messing about my country has done in other countries, gives the feeling that sometimes I am not proud to be British. ( NB, England is but part of Britain, great Britain comprises of Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England, the Union Jack is a flag encompassing the flags of each seperate country that makes up Britain. The English flag is a red cross on a white background, the colours of St George ) Some of the things done in my country's name I find apalling, those that ruled us and continue to rule have done little worth celebrating.

As to the situation in the middle east, yes, Britain , France, the US  and other countries have messed about there and perhaps the problems we have now are a direct response to the greed of past ruling elite. After T.E Lawrence rid Arabia of the Turkish, he also learned exactly what his country represents lies to be made and promises to be broken, the book Seven Pillars Of Wisdom is a good read.

Whilst the elite hatched their machiavellian plans from places of safety, my ancestors if they were not wily enought to keep their head down, died on battlefields or survived to life a life of poverty carrying scars and injuries from another man's war. The stupidity of people, is that they rally around flags, and talks of patriotism, ploys the elite use when they are in need of blood to spill and guess what, we fall for it every time.

But, what is past is past, we now have the present to make the world better for the future. We live in a world of media and superior communication, we can all see what is going on and what is seen is often believed. I am fully aware of the power of the media, even the good old stills camera, in the right or wrong hands, many perspectives can be gained from a series of images or even one high impact image, those that seek to pictorally record light, know what they are doing and because of agenda, one person can influence a world. We see the images, still or moving, we see the conflict, instead of watching, why not use our vast reserves to make peace where conflict exists, question people, listen to people and make fair judgements, compromise can always be had. Or is it we because of our media lives have become immune to the suffering of others that we actually seek to view material depicting other people's unhappiness. If it is the latter, what  disgusting people we have become.




samboct -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/9/2010 7:10:01 PM)

"But, what is past is past, we now have the present to make the world better for the future. We live in a world of media and superior communication, we can all see what is going on and what is seen is often believed. I am fully aware of the power of the media, even the good old stills camera, in the right or wrong hands, many perspectives can be gained from a series of images or even one high impact image, those that seek to pictorally record light, know what they are doing and because of agenda, one person can influence a world. We see the images, still or moving, we see the conflict, instead of watching, why not use our vast reserves to make peace where conflict exists, question people, listen to people and make fair judgements, compromise can always be had. Or is it we because of our media lives have become immune to the suffering of others that we actually seek to view material depicting other people's unhappiness. If it is the latter, what  disgusting people we have become"

Sorry- but I think you may have missed my point.  One cannot punish the current generation for the sins of their fathers, and I am in no way implying that you should.  On the other hand- you have the responsibility for your own actions- and that includes understanding the past and its role in shaping the present.

From my perspective- what I read based on your posts is a condemnation of Israeli actions.  What I do not see is a condemnation of Palestinian goals- i.e. shove the Jews into the sea.  From an Israeli perspective- you cannot negotiate with someone whose avowed goals is your death.  Historically, the UK has been responsible for some of the contretemps in the region (although if truth be told- these people seem to find reasons to kill themselves and others at the drop of a hat.) and until the UK citizens today protest both the injustice of the Israeli actions AND the Palestinian/Arab goals of killing all the Jews- they're sitting on the sidelines wringing their hands.  In previous times- these warring tribes would settle things permanently- one side would be effectively wiped out.

Sam


Sam




Moonhead -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/10/2010 4:54:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
The foundation of Israel is no more moral than the founding of the US, displacing native peoples.  Doesn't mean that Israel is right- I gave up on supporting Israel when I learned that it's basically an apartheid system.  But UK whining about the plight of the poor Palestinians is rather ironic given that the UK basically set up a lot of this current mess and has done damn all to stop it.  The UK can criticize Israeli actions when they come clean, tell the Arabs that they promised Israel to both the Palestinians and the Jews, but the Jews have a right to exist, and to quit attacking them.  Until there is strong UK condemnation of the Arab goal to throw the Jews into the sea- the English should shut up.

True enough, Sam, but at least the UK has a bit more justification in taking issue with Israel's behaviour in Palestine than the 'States. It's hard to shake the impression that somebody ordered the Kenyan to shut up after he said something critical about that last year.
Still, so long as the UN doesn't recognise Palestine as a country and Hamas as its government, there's little that can be done about the occupation in any case.




samboct -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/12/2010 8:15:12 AM)

Interesting piece in the NYT on the Israeli/Palestinian question (and this thread title is rather misleading....)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/12/opinion/12iht-edcohen.html?th&emc=th

I'm in good agreement with the author's viewpoints.

Sam




Real0ne -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/12/2010 8:22:33 AM)



Israel is against G-D.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uEK7zaMEBg











Moonhead -> RE: USA and The Third Reich (2/12/2010 8:27:16 AM)

Nice article, Sam. Thank you.




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