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RE: Legally Illegal? - 5/16/2006 4:43:24 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The emergence of China as the worlds chief manufacturer is a fact, even if America doesn't use China, companies from other countries will and undercut American companies.


Meat,
Easily remedied, but expensive; the question becomes how much do you want to spend for a TV? You can make it economically feasible to manufacture a TV in the US, but it requires dramatically reducing, if not elimination of many manufacturing employee expected benefits. You could pay $20/hour and build the plasma TV here but you couldn't afford to pay the associated benefits to your employees. That is what makes the US incapable of competing. Manufacturing competitors in the third world don't have that problem. Salaries are the least important issue, benefits and insurance costs are the actual culprit.

They may not be great, but all medical expenses in these countries are assumed by the State. There is no additional cost to the product for workers compensation insurance, product liability insurance, or any of the costs that are added to the cost of a US manufactured product. Why is GM failing? $3,500 of the cost of each and every car they sell goes direct to funding retired employee pensions and benefits programs. No, I'm not advocating for eliminating the benefits earned by the unions in the past. I'm a product of a GM worker family. But it's a fact that needs consideration when you talk about competing with a third world country.

The problem isn't unique to the US. Businesses in Japan outsources most assembly to China. If it can't be made by a robot and machine, industrialized nations can not compete. Japan has huge tariffs against goods made outside Japan. Japan is one of the most expensive places in the world to live and I wouldn't exchange our overall quality of life with theirs. The Japanese market is small enough so that even with prohibitive tariffs they are not a problem for China; although ultimately racial animosity may bubble up into a battle from time to time. Japan can't economically hurt China, the US can.

Bringing us again to the "how much do you want to pay for a TV"? Estimates are that it would take a 100% tariff on China manufactured goods to level the playing field. Soon after passage of any such tariff, we'd be at war with China. The only reason we aren't now is; where else would they market their goods?

Walmart would cease to exist without product from China. Walmart has become too big as a national employer and an economic power to not consider. They aren't unique, only the largest. Without China there would be no more $49 20 inch color TV's for sale; no $10 VCR's.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Legally Illegal? - 5/17/2006 2:18:31 AM   
meatcleaver


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The true test Mercnbeth as to whether tariffs would work are if ordinary people are willing to buy more expensive products and the truth is, wherever you go in the world, people will buy cheap before they buy products made in their own country. The only way for advanced countries to compete, is to move on and produce new hi-tech products they have developed themselves or manufacture products that are superior and worth the extra dollars as seen by the customer.

Take housing out of the equation and Japan isn't really more expensive than any other developed nation. I visit there regularly and before I visited the first time I was expecting to find it expensive and was surprised at what I found. However, you don't see many western products unless they are luxury products but I found these luxury products cheaper than they are in the west. The other types of western products you see are products that have got a cult status. I have never seen so many British Leyland Mini cars that have been reconditioned and put back on the road. In fact in my first stay in Japan I came across two businesses that were solely reconditioning Mini cars. OK Mini cars were 1960s design masterpieces but it suggests to me the way into such a market is innovation but the west has on the whole lost its innovation momentum and on the whole, even leaves this area to eastern countries now.

Protecting jobs has never in the long run saved jobs but has ended up damaging the economy even more. Even Japan is realising it can't protect jobs from such countries as Korea and China but has to compete by being more innovative. Japan now being an advanced country, its products have found a natural level, they can't copy off the west anymore, the number of their cars is not growing on European roads, because other manufacturers have realised its pointless whining and had to make cars that competed with Japanese cars and did. Before the Japanese threat, the average European car was crap and unreliable, a friend said that was true of American cars too so the incursion of Japanese products has not been completely negative.

Where once all electrical goods came from Japan, they all seem to come from China now. I think it is best not to look back with nostalgia when all of the products were made in ones own country. Those products would still be on sale if they were good enough and cheap enough but they weren't so we should move forward with optimism and a little confidence in ones own people to create new products.

Yep. Labour is expensive in the west but there are two ways to go. Return to the 19th century which is to surrender or look for other solutions. Though with regards to GM, I couldn't believe it when I saw a documentry and realised they paid people NOT TO WORK. That put a price of $250 on every car so it is not hard to see why American products are being undercut if that sort of agreement is common in the US. I can only think of France and Germany doing similar nonsense and it is no surprise they are struggling too.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Legally Illegal? - 5/17/2006 6:49:54 PM   
Calandra


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I think the mandatory sentence is a good idea if:
1.) The prison was designed to be self-supporting - not taking American taxpayer's money in the process.
2.) The people in those prisons were given a step by step opportunity to BECOME citizens.
3.) They were taught ENGLISH and expected to use it fluently by the time of their release.
4.) They were willing to then help OTHER immigrants who are already here to get legal.
 
I tire of standing in line at the service desk at Wal-Mart on Friday evening and watch Immigrants send hundreds of dollars at a time through Western Union to Mexico. I am a pretty understanding person, but I find myself wondering how these people can send so much cash out of the country if they are here legally with the same bills, taxes, etc as I have. I'm not against amnesty... IF people are willing to begin pulling their weight immediately upon receiving it.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Legally Illegal? - 5/30/2006 4:33:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


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How many years of the most recent five years have you paid your Federal Taxes? It's not a trick question. If you are an illegal immigrant standing by waiting for amnesty you only have to concern yourself with paying taxes for 3 of the most recent 5 years of Federal Income Tax. Makes you wish you were illegal huh?

quote:

Under the Senate bill, an illegal alien gets the option of having to pay only three of the previous five years of back taxes. Such a deal, one that legal Americans would die for (and go to prison if they tried it).


Does this part of the Bill make you feel 'secure'?
quote:

The Department of Homeland Security would be required to conduct "background checks" on the 11 million illegals and "encouraged" to do so within 90 days. We can imagine how thorough these checks will have to be, short of hiring millions of new Homeland Security agents.


You can read any number of sources for this story. These excerpts come from: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/pruden.htm

If you have masochistic tendencies or just want to get completely pissed off, you can read the Bill in it's entirety here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN02611:

Here is the letter I sent earlier to the President, my senators and congressman. The Senate battle is lost. There weren't enough of them up for re-election in states where fear of losing the election on this issue entered into the equation. However EVERY seat is congress is up. Take the time to let them know your feelings.

Ask them where do you sign up for the ability to pay taxes 60% of the years you've had an income.

quote:

President George W. Bush

1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, D.C. 20500



Mr. President:



It is a crying shame what you are doing to my Country. If I were writing this as recently as two years ago I would have added that it is a crying shame what you are doing to my Republican Party. However, I no longer identify with a party, who has as its de facto leader, a President who has overseen the largest increase in spending resulting in such a huge budget deficit. I take issue, as a “Reagan Republican”, that these things occurred while the same party controlled both houses of Congress.



I see the consequences of the policies you endorse to be long reaching. I respect your humanitarian efforts. I appreciate your desire to bring democracy to a land and people with no historical democratic reference. I greatly admire that your personal commitment to God influences your positions on matters such as abortion. I do not agree with some of these positions, but I respect your commitment, against personal attack. I can not supportive of your position concerning the illegal aliens. It appears on this issue you are more concerned with the safety and security of the Iraqi citizens than you are of the citizens of the United States.



I know that the unemployment rate of 4.7% is the lowest it’s been in my lifetime. But I know just as well, and I’m sure you appreciate, that positions as a clerical or service worker are not the same, nor do they have the associated benefits, as the manufacturing position at General Motors that my father worked for 30 years.



The argument you, and everyone else supporting the assimilation of the illegal immigrant population, is that you can’t deport everyone currently here illegally. I’ll stipulate to that position. My solution would not require any such mass deportation or cost the American taxpayer one dime. I propose that employer enforcement be the essential cog of solving this problem. I advocate establishing a deadline of August 1, 2006 to be the day for all employers to establish the legal residency of their employers. From that day forward the following penalties would be incurred if it’s determined any employee is in the country illegally.



First Offense: Fine equivalent to the cost of deportation of the employee(s).

Second Offense: Fine equivalent of five (5) times the cost of deportation of the employee(s)

Third Offense: Fine equivalent of ten (10) times the cost of deportation and mandatory six month prison time for all company owners or officers.





I see this plan accomplishing two objectives. It will eliminate the cost objection of deportation and it will be a disincentive for anyone to come to the US illegally. Enforcement would be at the corporate level as well as the individual level for people hiring “day workers” at the Home Depot.



An ancillary benefit will be increased wages for US workers. It may raise the cost of goods, but paying a US worker a salary for those goods is more acceptable than paying an illegal alien anything. All the distracting issues such as the language the National Anthem is sung become moot. If, under that enforcement, a plurality of citizens want Finnish as the official US language – so be it.



Here in California a high school public education is valueless. As an employer, I give no credibility to anyone’s CA HS diploma. All that tells me is that they attended enough days, and didn’t do anything that warranted them to be expelled. They have no skills in communicating in English, and can not do rudimentary math. Some of that may be caused by the liberal multi cultural politics of the State, but the overwhelming cause is the illegal aliens and their families creating an environment not conducive to learning.



You are trying to sell us on the idea that after your “Guest Worker” program is in effect, employer enforcement and border security will get better. How? Why then and not now? Why can’t you communicate clearly how granting rights to people here illegally should be palatable to me and many other Americans? Why is Mexico the preferred country? What do we say to the thousands from countries other than Mexico who came here legally and are waiting in a long line for similar access? Where is the “justice” that America represents? How is it that your program grants an easier path to someone who was able to get away with an illegal act longer? Consistent application of the logic of the length of time you are able to get away with something working in your favor would allow for the position that if bin Laden evades us and attacks us for 10 years he gets incurs a lesser penalty, versus if we caught him soon after 9/11.



I’ve already made the decision to vote against any incumbent candidate regardless of party affiliation. I’m doing my best to make as many of my friends and associates to consider the same decision. Many of us believe there is nobody currently representing us.



Mr. President, I doubt that you will ever see this correspondence. I greatly respect the office of the President, and you as an individual. I do not respect how you managed this country over the past two years. Please have the same consideration for US citizens and their security, both economical and political, as you do for the Iraqi.



If anyone has read this – thank you for your time.



Sincerely,











cc:        Senator Dianne Feinstein

           Senator Barbara Boxer

           Representative Dana Rohrabacher

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Legally Illegal? - 6/20/2006 12:41:29 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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I may have found my 2008 Presidential candidate.

quote:

HAZLETON, Pa. - With tensions rising and its police department and municipal budget stretched thin, this small northeastern Pennsylvania city is about to begin what the mayor calls one of the toughest crackdowns on illegal immigrants in the United States.
"Illegal immigrants are destroying the city," said Mayor Lou Barletta, a Republican. "I don't want them here, period."
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_us/illegal_immigrants_crackdown_4

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Legally Illegal? - 6/20/2006 3:33:14 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I may have found my 2008 Presidential candidate.

quote:

HAZLETON, Pa. - With tensions rising and its police department and municipal budget stretched thin, this small northeastern Pennsylvania city is about to begin what the mayor calls one of the toughest crackdowns on illegal immigrants in the United States.
"Illegal immigrants are destroying the city," said Mayor Lou Barletta, a Republican. "I don't want them here, period."
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_us/illegal_immigrants_crackdown_4



Great story. He sounds off on the truth : They’re bankrupting us. And you're correct about us needing a guy like this. The problem is.... anytime a guy like this runs, both sides and the media engage in vicious smear campaigns and discredit good folks like this.

Maybe he messed around on his wife a few years back or maybe he was friends with someone in college twenty years ago who recently was involved in savings and loan scandal , etc. They’ll dig all the skeletons out! They don't want people like this in high places. It's like a friend of mine said the other day '' We have the right to vote, but we don't have the right to choose the candidate; they're chosen for us.''


 - R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Legally Illegal? - 7/25/2006 1:23:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Striving to find a home for my vote this November and, more important, for a November two years forthcoming, I read every speech I can find from any candidate on the radar screen, regardless of party affiliation. Most recently the DLC (Democratic Leadership Council) held a "National Conversation" in Denver. The anticipated standard bearer for the party, Hilliary Clinton, gave the following speech: http://www.dlc.org/documents/ADI_Book.pdf

It's a PDF file I hope anyone interested can open it. There are plenty of ideas in the speech that I'm sure many here will agree. Please enjoy and if, as a result you are a Mrs. Clinton backer and your vote goes to her - good for you! I'm happy to provide the information. Who knows by 2008, I may make have come to the same decision, as repulsive as the thought is today.

I'm bringing it to your attention regarding one facet that is on point to this tread. There are plenty of things I disagree contained in the speech. You'll have to go to page 15 (Page 12 of the file) to read the point that is pertinent to this thread. In a speech, representing the DLC, Mrs. Clinton proposed a $500 Bond birthday gift for every baby born in the US to any family with income less than $75,000.00. As a 10th birthday present they get another $500 Bond. It's not restricted to use for college or anything else for that matter. They can buy the latest version of an X-Box if they have the desire.

However, this isn't about re-distribution of wealth, although Mrs. Clinton did talk about her disdain for "rich people". The problem, and reason for putting it in this thread is that is doesn't distinguish or make concessions to the program if the baby's parents are illegally in the US. How long to you think the lines at the border will be if Mrs. Clinton and the DLC put this idea into practice?

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Legally Illegal? - 7/25/2006 3:30:09 PM   
LotusSong


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Our revolution was Illegal? Or were you referieng to our initial setteling of this country?

If you mean the latter, then I would have to say.. WHO's laws were broken?  The way we acted to the residents here may have been immoral but not illegal.

If our country is so prejudiced and bad.. why would ANYONE want to immigrate here?

right now I'm disappoited because of the post 9/11 circumstances. I have learned that America is not always the good guy or the calvary you can count on.  We don't do anything for anyone without some kind of payoff.  It's a big business...not the land of milk and honey..

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Legally Illegal? - 7/25/2006 4:53:29 PM   
popeye1250


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There's going to be a lot of changes in this country once Bush goes!
That guy is no "Republican" that's for sure!

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/6/2006 3:33:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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Good news, it seems sometimes a ground swell of anger does work. No amnesty is on the horizon. For now it appears enforcement and border protection come first!

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-09-06T190709Z_01_N06224109_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-IMMIGRATION.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/6/2006 4:50:24 PM   
peterK50


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It's highly unlikely 100% f the protestors were illegal. If the police decided to round up everyone legally & peacefully protesting & sift through them for illegals the risk of violence would be high & the risk of lawsuits higher. I'd prefer to see smart on crime rather then tough on crime.

_____________________________

Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/6/2006 5:15:28 PM   
popeye1250


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Peter, not really. The Supreme Court ruled a few years back that it is perfectly legal for (any) Police Officer to ask (anyone) to identify themselves.

(in reply to peterK50)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/6/2006 11:52:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Peter, not really. The Supreme Court ruled a few years back that it is perfectly legal for (any) Police Officer to ask (anyone) to identify themselves.


It was in Nazi Germany too.

It's getting back to that way in some parts of Europe and I fucking hate it. Blair wants that sort of world. I just hope he dies and painful death!

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 12:29:06 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Striving to find a home for my vote this November and, more important, for a November two years forthcoming, I read every speech I can find from any candidate on the radar screen, regardless of party affiliation. Most recently the DLC (Democratic Leadership Council) held a "National Conversation" in Denver. The anticipated standard bearer for the party, Hilliary Clinton, gave the following speech: http://www.dlc.org/documents/ADI_Book.pdf

It's a PDF file I hope anyone interested can open it. There are plenty of ideas in the speech that I'm sure many here will agree. Please enjoy and if, as a result you are a Mrs. Clinton backer and your vote goes to her - good for you! I'm happy to provide the information. Who knows by 2008, I may make have come to the same decision, as repulsive as the thought is today.

I'm bringing it to your attention regarding one facet that is on point to this tread. There are plenty of things I disagree contained in the speech. You'll have to go to page 15 (Page 12 of the file) to read the point that is pertinent to this thread. In a speech, representing the DLC, Mrs. Clinton proposed a $500 Bond birthday gift for every baby born in the US to any family with income less than $75,000.00. As a 10th birthday present they get another $500 Bond. It's not restricted to use for college or anything else for that matter. They can buy the latest version of an X-Box if they have the desire.

However, this isn't about re-distribution of wealth, although Mrs. Clinton did talk about her disdain for "rich people". The problem, and reason for putting it in this thread is that is doesn't distinguish or make concessions to the program if the baby's parents are illegally in the US. How long to you think the lines at the border will be if Mrs. Clinton and the DLC put this idea into practice?


Unless there's an anti-globalist candidate who comes along with a promise to slash the federal workforce by sixty percent and protect our borders.... {From a bunch of boobs}, my choice in 2008 will be a write-in candidate.

Fiscal responsibility, border security and immigration are a prerequisite and the most important issues for our next president /congress {My opinion}. If the latter two are corrected.... the phony charade known as ''the war on terror'' becomes irrelevant even to those who believe in it.... And of course that leaves us with the issue of only having a ten dollar bill in your pocket, but still having the desire to spend twenty. That will problem will never be corrected as long as we have career politicians at the helm - Go figure.....

As far as Hiliary Clinton..... I'm betting she won't even come close to the nomination. I once said Evan Bayh was the sleeper.... I've changed my mind. The Oligarchs and international bankers will see to it that two more puppets run against each other. My bet is that John Kerry is their man....


Have a nice trip / honeymoon 





 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 9/7/2006 12:30:06 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 4:08:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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I'm always bemused by the "benefits" of outsourcing manufacture to emerging economies, and what we get here in the UK at least, that we can still create wealth within the country by "value added services".

I have yet to understand how it is economically beneficial to society to have thousands of former factory workers, who previously produced tax revenues and spent reasonable wages on other products, now producing no tax revenues but instead reliant on social benefit payments which they then must spend to live but which are far below what they formerly earned. The nett loss difference in the wealth of the country which outsourced manufacture must necessarily involve, must run into billions and billions.

Then, we are told that this loss of wealth is more than made up for by value added services which as a nation we must now embrace as our primary source of employment. I do not see how such small activities as bagging and tagging products from China or India or wherever, is somehow meant to replace the revenue and wealth we formerly enjoyed? Put this alongside the fact that we must still pay the same social and pension benefits as we set up when we were a wealthy manufacturing nation, only with less money, and the future does not look good.

Right now, our big business leaders think they're pretty clever to have acquired their manufactured products at a fraction of the cost, but they totally ignore the true social and economic cost of all that - but then, they think they'll get rich from it and this is a competitive market society so sod the rest of society. Only problem there being that the Chinese and Indians and the rest, are not quite so stupid as our business leaders seem to think, and they want to be rich too. Once they have monopoly control of production, they can basically charge what they like and manufacture for whom they like - if the US wont pay USD 100-00 for what was USD 10-00 yesterday, then the US doesnt get the product.

It may be the end result of free market economics, but to be frank the uncontrolled market is not a suitable means for ensuring access to a decent national life. I wouldnt advocate communism, but we in the west certainly do need to think carefully about whether we want a decent life and society, or will accept that our grandchildren will live in poverty for the sake of us buying stuff cheap today.
E

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 4:27:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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Why worry about the government paying for the unproductive unemployed when they spend far more on unproductive jobs such as civil servants and social workers etc. etc. The vast majority of jobs have for a long time, even before industrial decline, been none productive jobs.

Where one time it took ten people to build a car, now it takes five (figures plucked out of the air). Britain produces more cars now than when it ever did. Steel is so cheap, it can't be produced economically in Britain with out slaves. Sheffield produces more specalised steel than it ever did before yet you now go to Sheffield you can't find any steel works, the Don Valley is empty of mills. British art and design and music industries produce vast amounts of wealth for the country but people don't see this as production because there are now smoking stacks.

If western countries want to compete they have to innovate and produce the next new thing. Unfortunately this is where profit today capitalists are the desease. Short termism is the problem the west has and no vision to plan for the economy that will pay for the next generation.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 4:27:51 AM   
peterK50


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popeye1250...I think Bush is the picture of a Republican, which is probably why the other candidates from his party are running away from him & his failed policies as fast as they can.

_____________________________

Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 4:38:24 AM   
LadyEllen


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MC - exactly; its all about what I can get for me, right now. Our prosperity in the UK that was built in the Victorian era was based as much on local and national pride as it was on the profit principle. Paternalistic, jingoistic and flawed in many other ways, that attitude at least meant that business owners felt it as important that their town and country benefitted from their activities, as anything else. It wasnt philanthropic, it was that "I am from Birmingham, I want Birmingham to be more prestigious" and "I am from Britain, I want Britain to be more prestigious"; egotism, but egotism which benefitted all.
E

(in reply to peterK50)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 4:53:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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Actually, thinking about it, Germany and France still encourage long term planning in their industries but this has caused their economies to slow down and be protectionist to a certain degree. London has always been a financial centre where profit today is king and this is why British governments have put more importance in finance than industry, they look after what is on the doorstep and fuck the rest of the country. This is spilling over to another thread but multi-culturalism and liberal distaste for Britain's Victorian achievements has eroded nation pride, it's doubtful we'll ever get it back because if you have national pride you are now seen as some sort of fascist.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Legally Illegal? - 9/7/2006 5:05:36 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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MC - true, but when we say Germany and France have been left behind, its only by reference to the short term advances we have made by living in the short term? Our neighbours will have to adopt the same stance if they want to catch up with us, but I'm not sure whether they do want to have the sort of country we are rapidly becoming, and I wonder if I want to be part of such a country too I have to say.

The Finance industry is another that makes me laugh. Manufacture goes overseas - how long before the new manufacturers spawn their own insurance, banking, freight etc industries or in the shorter term how long before they insure, bank or ship with someone other than us? We cannot all take in one another's washing, as Harold Wilson (I believe) once said.

Well, I dont mind being a fascist if thats the description for someone with pride and aspiration for our nation, just as I dont mind being a dimwit, if thats what flying our flag means!
E

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 120
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