RE: Talking Women (Full Version)

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Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 6:50:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Was it from a woman?


Nope. I don't let those calls go that long. This was actually someone to whom I wanted to talk, about a subject I enjoy discussing.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 7:15:22 PM)

Loki, I will start by saying that though I don't know much about you, I take offense to some of the statements that I've seen you write about women on this thread. That said, you are far from being the only one who makes statements that offend me.

You write that while there is overall lack of tolerance for men who make violent comments against women, it seems ok to hear the reverse, that is women bashing men. I agree with you partially on this as it is the case in most situations.

I myself have been the victim of violent statements by male bullies on these boards and have been told by other participants of the boards to suck it up because the bullies were only kidding. I guess I don't subscribe to their brand of humour, and for the record, neither do many who CMail me to congratulate me for standing up for myself but keep silent on the boards in order to not be the next target. The only reason I illustrate this is that it is still ok for some men to bash some women. I've said it many times that we tend to notice what hits most home to us.

It will however agree that it has become more socially acceptable for women to get angry and make violent comments towards men, something associated with taking power back. That said, I don't see how acting violently gives us any power. Resorting to violence to me is a sign of defeat. I do not believe that violence, verbal or physical, or vengeful action is the answer in any situation.

I understand that you have a different view of what is a Lady than others here. Actually, so do I. And there are differences in the definition of a Lady throughout various societies and civilizations. I don't know you, but I don't think you are a woman hater. I think that the kind of woman you are looking for is rare and the women you meet here do not match up to your idea of an ideal woman for you (for the record, I can say that about the majority of the submissive men who CMail me).

That said, it would be wise for you to let the women here be who they are even if they don't fit into your ideal of a woman. You can have faith that one who does will eventually show up. While you might not agree with the way the present themselves or act, they do have the right to be who they are and some men love them this way. And I'm not suggesting that you have to take any kind of verbal abuse, but if you dish it out, prepare to receive it. Some of these ladies have claws.

Here's hoping this posts bridges some gaps.

- LA



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 7:21:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

MR. negative does illastrate for the woman that the more things change, the more things stay the same. Cause lets face it, in a race between sexism and racism, the USA overcame their racism before overcoming their sexism. They would rather vote in a black man than a woman of any color.


It's funny that I see this post after the longer reply I just made. You make a STUNNING example of what I am talking about.

Overcome racism but not sexism? Please. Ask a black man that. Ever heard the lame 'racial' joke about Micheal Jackson? How he "achieved the American dream -- growing up a poor black boy to become a rich white woman?"

Yeah, that's the problem with those who throw around the victim card. You always see someone else who you think has it better than you. Racism still exists in this world, very much so. Does sexism? Sure in some places. But neither is as widespread as they once were. Hell, either 'ism' will get you fired from a job if HR catches wind over it.



That what I meant by the more things "change", the more they stay the "same". Yea, some people grow. And others remind us we have miles to go.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 7:44:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Loki, I will start by saying that though I don't know much about you, I take offense to some of the statements that I've seen you write about women on this thread. That said, you are far from being the only one who makes statements that offend me.


Let me start by saying you should only take offense at what I say, if you know in your heart I mean *you*. If you are secure in yourself enough to know that the things I say do not apply to you, then you needn't worry about being offended. It's why the female friends I have are my friends. They know I can bash "typical chicks" all day long and they know in their heart, they have none of the qualities I am ranting about and thus, I don't mean them. In fact, some of my friends have become my friends because they share my views. They are the ones who feel more 'at home' hanging out with the guys than with the vindictive, back-stabbing bitches they've come to know in their own gender.

In other, more succinct, words -- you should only take offense at my words, if you're saying I should take offense at the things I see written about 'men' on this board. Because as I've pointed out before, the posts I make are almost always directly in response to some generalization, joke, or stereotype about men that I see here. I don't take offense to those, mind you, but I *will* make an appearance and make a similar generalization, joke, or stereotype about women and watch the drama unfold -- it's highly entertaining.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I myself have been the victim of violent statements by male bullies on these boards and have been told by other participants of the boards to suck it up because the bullies were only kidding. I guess I don't subscribe to their brand of humour, and for the record, neither do many who CMail me to congratulate me for standing up for myself but keep silent on the boards in order to not be the next target. The only reason I illustrate this is that it is still ok for some men to bash some women. I've said it many times that we tend to notice what hits most home to us.


I have yet to see what you refer to in this instance, except for perhaps domiguy who everyone knows is just being outlandish and funny. The simple truth is this is the internet. People will say what they will say. It's up to you whether or not it will affect you. It's up to you whether they will have the power to upset you or not. In my case, no one has that power here. People here who see me argue assume that I am getting riled up. I'm not. I never am. I am usually smiling ear-to-ear when I am replying. I enjoy watching those who are obviously getting riled at me, because it means I have achieved my goal. I gave them a taste of what I saw them doing.....and they didn't like it. Perhaps they will remember for next time. It really destroys the anti-sexism argument when a person is being sexist themselves, don't you think?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
It will however agree that it has become more socially acceptable for women to get angry and make violent comments towards men, something associated with taking power back. That said, I don't see how acting violently gives us any power. Resorting to violence to me is a sign of defeat. I do not believe that violence, verbal or physical, or vengeful action is the answer in any situation.


Exactly. I don't think it should be socially acceptable for women to do that, or men for that matter. But in the last couple of decades, women are congratulated for resorting to violence and men are called abusers. I can count on one hand the number of episodes of COPS I've seen where the man is not arrested and the woman is during a domestic dispute. Look at Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond....hell even Friends. The women in those shows all have their 'little things' for which they smack their male counterparts for. When they do, you hear the audience cheer or laugh. Let that happen in reverse on a show. People will cry out for justice and call for boycotts and firing of the writers. I simply don't understand that. Women, by and large, are losing their femininity and ladylike nature in order to, for lack of a better description, become men.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I understand that you have a different view of what is a Lady than others here. Actually, so do I.


Actually, our views appear to be similar (though in the other thread we differ on the ability to be demure *and* strong, but whatever).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't know you, but I don't think you are a woman hater.


Thanks. That makes 2 of us. ;) Seriously though, I had one girl on here tell me that I couldn't possibly be a mysogynist if I didn't hate all women. I never gave myself that label -- I just took ownership of it. I took its power away. You can't shut my mouth by calling me sexist or chauvanist or even mysogynist. Only I know what's in my heart and mind and no one else. People can and will think what they want and I will still get up and go to work and carry on with my life, stress free.

It does crack me up though, you can see the 'haters' really come down on me by attacking my mother and saying she didn't love me and that's why I am how I am. It gets amusing, though sometimes a little sad...for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I think that the kind of woman you are looking for is rare and the women you meet here do not match up to your idea of an ideal woman for you (for the record, I can say that about the majority of the submissive men who CMail me).


She's as rare as adamantium. (In case you're not a comic-book nerd, adamantium is the indestructable metal that covers Wolverine's skeleton and his claws. It's also...a FICTIONAL metal, as it doesn't exist in reality.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
That said, it would be wise for you to let the women here be who they are even if they don't fit into your ideal of a woman. You can have faith that one who does will eventually show up. While you might not agree with the way the present themselves or act, they do have the right to be who they are and some men love them this way. And I'm not suggesting that you have to take any kind of verbal abuse, but if you dish it out, prepare to receive it. Some of these ladies have claws.


You misunderstand. I'm not saying people can't be the way they want. I don't try and tell people what they can and can't say. I simply reply in a fashion that I feel appropriate and watch the fireworks. As I said, I find it amusing. It's *most* amusing during those instances where I have the opportunity to make almost an exact duplicate of their stereotype or joke, but in reverse and watch how it ruffles their feathers. They simply don't see that all I did was take what they said and reverse it. If I have to carry the sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist label with them, so be it. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.

There are some here who regard me something akin to domiguy. Though even those people can misunderstand the nature of my posts/mindset during a debate and urge me to stop lest I truly fit the sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist label.

It goes back to the old saying -- "Your true friends won't believe the bullshit thrown around about you. Those who believe the bullshit aren't your true friends anyway."

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Here's hoping this posts bridges some gaps.


No gaps to bridge. I think you understand. A select few do, many do not.




Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 7:48:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
That what I meant by the more things "change", the more they stay the "same". Yea, some people grow. And others remind us we have miles to go.


But it's the distance left to go that appears to be in debate. Apparently it's not that far if being sexist or racist will get you fired. Does racism still exist in the backwoods of West Virginia or Louisiana? Sure. But when it comes to light, those who use racism in their workplace will no longer be in their workplace. There will always be backwoods racists, or closet sexists because you can't change how people are in their mind. But the fact is that how people are in their minds no longer has a significant impact on the job world as a whole.

You can point to the President as an example, but when you look at who his opponents were, there isn't much to support your side. What that means is that people weren't going to vote for a woman just because she's a woman -- which is how it should be. They felt the current president was the one to go with and that's how they voted. If the current president was a woman, she would still be the current president.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 8:10:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Loki, I will start by saying that though I don't know much about you, I take offense to some of the statements that I've seen you write about women on this thread. That said, you are far from being the only one who makes statements that offend me.

Let me start by saying you should only take offense at what I say, if you know in your heart I mean *you*. If you are secure in yourself enough to know that the things I say do not apply to you, then you needn't worry about being offended. It's why the female friends I have are my friends. They know I can bash "typical chicks" all day long and they know in their heart, they have none of the qualities I am ranting about and thus, I don't mean them. In fact, some of my friends have become my friends because they share my views. They are the ones who feel more 'at home' hanging out with the guys than with the vindictive, back-stabbing bitches they've come to know in their own gender.

In other, more succinct, words -- you should only take offense at my words, if you're saying I should take offense at the things I see written about 'men' on this board. Because as I've pointed out before, the posts I make are almost always directly in response to some generalization, joke, or stereotype about men that I see here. I don't take offense to those, mind you, but I *will* make an appearance and make a similar generalization, joke, or stereotype about women and watch the drama unfold -- it's highly entertaining.

I see what you are saying. However, when I say that I'm offended, it isn't because I myself feel targeted. I can take offense to a slight against a black man even if I'm not a black man.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I myself have been the victim of violent statements by male bullies on these boards and have been told by other participants of the boards to suck it up because the bullies were only kidding. I guess I don't subscribe to their brand of humour, and for the record, neither do many who CMail me to congratulate me for standing up for myself but keep silent on the boards in order to not be the next target. The only reason I illustrate this is that it is still ok for some men to bash some women. I've said it many times that we tend to notice what hits most home to us.

I have yet to see what you refer to in this instance, except for perhaps domiguy who everyone knows is just being outlandish and funny.

I am not only talking about him. Another one was finally banned. And no, not everyone knows that he is just outlandish and funny. Believe me. His own "friends" have written to me saying that they find he goes overboard. And there are many who don't speak up to him because they see what happens when they do. Take Panda for instance. And I think having been one of the people he has the most viciously attacked here, I might have a very different perspective.
quote:

The simple truth is this is the internet. People will say what they will say. It's up to you whether or not it will affect you. It's up to you whether they will have the power to upset you or not. In my case, no one has that power here. People here who see me argue assume that I am getting riled up. I'm not. I never am. I am usually smiling ear-to-ear when I am replying. I enjoy watching those who are obviously getting riled at me, because it means I have achieved my goal. I gave them a taste of what I saw them doing.....and they didn't like it. Perhaps they will remember for next time. It really destroys the anti-sexism argument when a person is being sexist themselves, don't you think?

Oh I did get riled up the first few times. Now I actually don't read most of his posts nor do I let him engage me. Some stuff he says is ok. He's no dumbass. Most bullies aren't.That also doesn't mean that I'll sit quietly and take it. I does mean that I will not stoop down to his level. I did twice. I won't a third time.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
It will however agree that it has become more socially acceptable for women to get angry and make violent comments towards men, something associated with taking power back. That said, I don't see how acting violently gives us any power. Resorting to violence to me is a sign of defeat. I do not believe that violence, verbal or physical, or vengeful action is the answer in any situation.

Exactly. I don't think it should be socially acceptable for women to do that, or men for that matter. But in the last couple of decades, women are congratulated for resorting to violence and men are called abusers. I can count on one hand the number of episodes of COPS I've seen where the man is not arrested and the woman is during a domestic dispute. Look at Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond....hell even Friends. The women in those shows all have their 'little things' for which they smack their male counterparts for. When they do, you hear the audience cheer or laugh. Let that happen in reverse on a show. People will cry out for justice and call for boycotts and firing of the writers. I simply don't understand that. Women, by and large, are losing their femininity and ladylike nature in order to, for lack of a better description, become men.

This is an interesting point you bring. My last partner was not raised in the Western world. One night when we were watching TV, he looked at me and said "Why do all the women on TV appear superior and all the men appear as dumbasses?" He was referring to Homer, Family Guy, and the ones you mentioned. Now you have to remember, our dynamic had me as a dominant woman, but I never, ever once treated him as stupid. I couldn't... he was a genius actually ;-)

I agreed with him. I get so many emails from men saying they are worthless, useless, etc and that isn't how I view a submissive man. But a lot of what has been done in the name of taking back power has emasculated men. Another bunch of them got violent. A whole bunch got bitter. This isn't the solution.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I understand that you have a different view of what is a Lady than others here. Actually, so do I.

Actually, our views appear to be similar (though in the other thread we differ on the ability to be demure *and* strong, but whatever).

Maybe it's a question of semantics. In my view, a demure woman would not speak out for injustice or fight for what she believed in. But I've seen so many Ladies that I've respected who did, without having to lower themselves to violence and trashiness. But not my definition of demure. Demure, for me, takes away my voice. A Lady should have a voice and use it.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't know you, but I don't think you are a woman hater.

Thanks. That makes 2 of us. ;) Seriously though, I had one girl on here tell me that I couldn't possibly be a mysogynist if I didn't hate all women. I never gave myself that label -- I just took ownership of it. I took its power away. You can't shut my mouth by calling me sexist or chauvanist or even mysogynist. Only I know what's in my heart and mind and no one else. People can and will think what they want and I will still get up and go to work and carry on with my life, stress free.

People assume so much about me as well, and sometimes I have a giggle at it. People do like to project. But maybe it's time to release the ownership of that label. I don't think it is shining the best light on you.
quote:

It does crack me up though, you can see the 'haters' really come down on me by attacking my mother and saying she didn't love me and that's why I am how I am. It gets amusing, though sometimes a little sad...for them.

Projection. It's not pretty. In their defense, they are trying to make sense of you, they just aren't going about it the right way.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I think that the kind of woman you are looking for is rare and the women you meet here do not match up to your idea of an ideal woman for you (for the record, I can say that about the majority of the submissive men who CMail me).

She's as rare as adamantium. (In case you're not a comic-book nerd, adamantium is the indestructable metal that covers Wolverine's skeleton and his claws. It's also...a FICTIONAL metal, as it doesn't exist in reality.)

I know Wolverine! So if I hear you well, the woman you are looking for doesn't exist? I'm not trying to project, I'm trying to understand.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
That said, it would be wise for you to let the women here be who they are even if they don't fit into your ideal of a woman. You can have faith that one who does will eventually show up. While you might not agree with the way the present themselves or act, they do have the right to be who they are and some men love them this way. And I'm not suggesting that you have to take any kind of verbal abuse, but if you dish it out, prepare to receive it. Some of these ladies have claws.


You misunderstand. I'm not saying people can't be the way they want. I don't try and tell people what they can and can't say. I simply reply in a fashion that I feel appropriate and watch the fireworks. As I said, I find it amusing. It's *most* amusing during those instances where I have the opportunity to make almost an exact duplicate of their stereotype or joke, but in reverse and watch how it ruffles their feathers. They simply don't see that all I did was take what they said and reverse it. If I have to carry the sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist label with them, so be it. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.


Alright. I personally have a hard time seeing strife and discord as entertaining. I mean don't get me wrong, I like dark humour and satire, but I have limits to the amount of negativity I want around me.
quote:

There are some here who regard me something akin to domiguy.

Not even close, and that's a compliment.
quote:

Though even those people can misunderstand the nature of my posts/mindset during a debate and urge me to stop lest I truly fit the sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist label.

It goes back to the old saying -- "Your true friends won't believe the bullshit thrown around about you. Those who believe the bullshit aren't your true friends anyway."

Makes sense. I do however care about the image I project. That might be my professional side kicking in. Or maybe my mom always being concerned about what the neighbours thought ;-)
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Here's hoping this posts bridges some gaps.

No gaps to bridge. I think you understand. A select few do, many do not.

I don't always understand, but I try. Thanks for your kind reply.

- LA

Edited because it's late and when it's late, my English gets crummy ;-)



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/14/2010 9:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I see what you are saying. However, when I say that I'm offended, it isn't because I myself feel targeted. I can take offense to a slight against a black man even if I'm not a black man.


Yes, but there are varying degress of offense. There's one type of offense where you chime in and say "Hahaha....hey now. That's not right. You shouldn't be saying things like that." And then there's the kind where you jump in and say "How dare you!?! I do not do that at all and I *am* an (x, y, z). How dare you insinuate that I do (x, y, z)?? You know nothing about me!!"

There's a world of difference between the two (not to mention there the fact that there more than just the two, of couse).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I am not only talking about him. Another one was finally banned. And no, not everyone knows that he is just outlandish and funny. Believe me. His own "friends" have written to me saying that they find he goes overboard. And there are many who don't speak up to him because they see what happens when they do. Take Panda for instance. And I think having been one of the people he has the most viciously attacked here, I might have a very different perspective.


Well, I don't know who you mean, so I can't comment. However, I have had several times where a post of mine has had people lash out at me here -- only for some of them to e-mail me and say they agreed with me and they were impressed by how I stood my ground. That's one of the reasons I don't have a profile here anymore. If you agree with me -- have the guts to say so out here where everyone can see you. Don't join the chorus of those blasting me here only to agree in private.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Oh I did get riled up the first few times. Now I actually don't read most of his posts nor do I let him engage me. Some stuff he says is ok. He's no dumbass. Most bullies aren't.That also doesn't mean that I'll sit quietly and take it. I does mean that I will not stoop down to his level. I did twice. I won't a third time.


You don't *have* to take anything. Nor do you have to let what he says (or what I say) rile you. My detractors here have not yet caught on that there is literally *nothing* they can say that will rile me up. I don't give them that power. I don't give anyone that power. They say what they say -- I say what I say. I'll relay (once more) a short exchange I had with a former co-worker who got upset over my comments one day. He was making his own comments (which didn't bother me in the least). Yet when I made mine, he threatened to kick my ass (his exact words were that he was going to tear my balls off). After our shift, we continued the argument where he told me in no uncertain terms what he thought of me. And I informed him that I didn't give a rat's ass about his opinion because he didn't matter to me. I went on to say that he was free to continue saying what he liked, so long as he knew that I was going to say what I wanted to say. And he could threaten me all he liked, but that wasn't going to shut me up because I wasn't afraid of him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
This is an interesting point you bring. My last partner was not raised in the Western world. One night when we were watching TV, he looked at me and said "Why do all the women on TV appear superior and all the men appear as dumbasses? Homer, Family Guy, and the ones you mentioned. Now you have to remember, our dynamic had me as a dominant woman, but I never, ever once treated him as stupid. I couldn't... he was a genius actually ;-)

I agreed with him. I get so many emails from men saying they are worthless, useless, etc and that isn't how I view a submissive man. But a lot of what has been done in the name of taking back power has emasculated men. Another bunch of them got violent. A whole bunch got bitter. This isn't the solution.


That's exactly what I am talking about. It's also why I am WILDLY unpopular in any thread discussing feminism. Because it's my firm belief that feminism went too far. It's an inherent danger that is faced whenever one group claims to want equality. They say they want to be equal.....then eventually....they want superiority. It's inevitable. As they say -- power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I read a story on CNN recently about the tragedy in Haiti. The headline was something about crimes against women increasing. It was clearly an attempt to paint the men as the bad guys there while painting women as the hapless victims. The gist of the story was about the men who would rob the women of their food coupons or how the women had to stay awake all night because of the "roaming squads of men who wish to rape them."

It went on for a page and a half about the plight of the women who couldn't eat because the men stole all their food. Then, in literally the last TWO sentences, they had a quote from a man who said that men were not even GIVEN food coupons without a woman with them. They got nothing if they had no woman to care for. So you have an entire story painting men as the bad guys, and in the last line you have one saying they were being treated like animals. What does an animal do when you don't feed it? It goes and gets food on its own. Simple.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Maybe it's a question of semantics. In my view, a demure woman would not speak out for injustice or fight for what she believed in. But I've seen so many Ladies that I've respected who did, without having to lower themselves to violence and trashiness. But not my definition of demure. Demure, for me, takes away my voice. A Lady should have a voice and use it.


It's just a difference of definition. I don't see being demure as preventing one from speaking out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
People assume so much about me as well, and sometimes I have a giggle at it. People do like to project. But maybe it's time to release the ownership of that label. I don't think it is shining the best light on you.


I'm not the one holding onto it. I will own it so long as it's thrown my way because it de-powers those who would use it against me. As I said, those who know me, know me. Those who don't, well, their opinion doesn't matter to me anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Projection. It's not pretty. In their defense, they are trying to make sense of you, they just aren't going about it the right way.


Well, that is indeed on them. Because I lost count of the number of threads I have been in where I have a conversation similar to the one we are having now. I've laid it out very plainly numerous times. Those who still don't get it, won't ever get it. They won't because they don't want to. They would rather take offense and fight the fight against an enemy. And that's fine. As my signature indicated, I will never shut up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I know Wolverine! So if I hear you well, the woman you are looking for doesn't exist? I'm not trying to project, I'm trying to understand.


Basically, yep. Perhaps if I were born in the 40's or 50's I'd be okay. Since I was not. I'm screwed. There have been ones who tried to show me what I wanted to see, but in those instances it's roughly like a straight guy 'playing dom.' You know they're just playing a role and that's not how they really are. In the words of Hard Harry from "Pump Up The Volume" -- "I can smell a lie like a fart in a car."

I've had more than a few instances where I'd meet a girl, tell her up front I was an asshole. KNOW up front that there was no way she was finding me as funny as she appeared, or that she was as interested in my interests as I am. Sooner or later, my jokes don't get the laughs they once did.....my joking comments start fights....participating in my interests somehow meant I didn't care for her anymore.....she even calls me...*gasp* an asshole. To which I can only reply "Umm....yeah. We covered this when we met."

When he was on the air here, I listened to a blatant, unapologetic asshole -- Tom Leykis. He was as over-the-top with his treatment of women as Howard Stern is with everything else. "Leykis 101" is his show which supposedly teaches the guys how to 'get theirs' and then 'dump the bitch.' Now, most of his antics were merely for shock value. However, he did have a few nuggets of truth that become evident when you remove yourself from the pool of dating 'availability' and just 'watch' people, particularly women and how they interact with guys. It's very eye-opening. The problem is that the more I see what I see, the less I want to be involved in the whole 'relationship' world.

And that, is a very long and winded way of saying "yes, my ideal woman does not exist." Since I can't fathom why anyone would want to 'settle' for an asshole like me, by that same token, I will not 'settle' for anyone else, either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Alright. I personally have a hard time seeing strife and discord as entertaining. I mean don't get me wrong, I like dark humour and satire, but I have limits to the amount of negativity I wan't around me.


Perhaps, but the discord is all on them. I have fun. As we already discovered -- what I say is usually in jest, as theirs was originally. It's just that part of the joke for me is their reaction to my joke, especially after making such a similar 'joke' of their own. Just call me Captain Chaos, I guess. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Not even close, and that's a compliment.


Alright then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Makes sense. I do however care about the image I project. That might be my professional side kicking in. Or maybe my mom always being concerned about what the neighbours thought ;-)


Understandable. But as a former high-school geek, I grew up to learn not to spend time worrying what others think. If I cared what others thought of me, I'd never have survived high school. Perhaps that's why I'm so good now at letting nothing get to me. I *was* a geek in high school....big time. It wasn't until...what...my junior or even senior year that I began to dress 'nice' and attract 'attention.' I was not a jock, nor one of the 'in-crowd.' And I was made aware of that fact each and every day. So, now that I'm all grown up, I realize that it doesn't matter what people think of me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't always understand, but I try. Thanks for your kind reply.


You try more than most. I'm always happy to answer questions. Just as long as you don't do like some here and attempt to answer those questions for me with some half-assed attempt at an insult.

I am and have always been a sucker for conversation. Like I always say -- I can discuss anything in an above-board, adult manner. However, as I also often say, I will never pass on free trip to 'immature town' if people want to go there. I even have my own map.....summer home....local hangout, etc. 



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 4:55:34 AM)

Thank you for your answers Loki. I'm going to trim this down a little and get to some key points.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Yes, but there are varying degress of offense. There's one type of offense where you chime in and say "Hahaha....hey now. That's not right. You shouldn't be saying things like that." And then there's the kind where you jump in and say "How dare you!?! I do not do that at all and I *am* an (x, y, z). How dare you insinuate that I do (x, y, z)?? You know nothing about me!!"

There's a world of difference between the two (not to mention there the fact that there more than just the two, of couse).

And neither of those were my reaction. I actually made a calm statement. ;-)
quote:

You don't *have* to take anything. Nor do you have to let what he says (or what I say) rile you.

Usually, I don't let bullying rile me. It does catch me off guard at times. I also think there is a difference between being riled up and making a statement that you do not appreciate the way you have been spoken to. When I do the latter, it is to call a spade a spade and to let the offensive party know that I will not be engaged by them.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
This is an interesting point you bring. My last partner was not raised in the Western world. One night when we were watching TV, he looked at me and said "Why do all the women on TV appear superior and all the men appear as dumbasses?

That's exactly what I am talking about. It's also why I am WILDLY unpopular in any thread discussing feminism. Because it's my firm belief that feminism went too far. It's an inherent danger that is faced whenever one group claims to want equality. They say they want to be equal.....then eventually....they want superiority. It's inevitable. As they say -- power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I have made similar statements which made me unpopular as well in Ask A Mistress. While I believe that feminism was necessary in its attempts to bring equity between men and women, a new model is now necessary to continue the work. The problem is, that instead of looking for equity, many seeked equality and that made it a nearly impossible battle.

I have a feeling that this image originates in the US. It has spilled over a little in Canadian media, but not that much. Europeen media, as far as I've seen, does not have this. They do however have some American shows on their TV stations. But outside of this, these images are not prevelent in the Middle East, Asia, South America or Africa.
quote:

It's just a difference of definition. I don't see being demure as preventing one from speaking out.

Thank you for clarifying this. I will however avoid the word because though you don't see it, many definitions of the word imply this. I try my best to select words for their clarity.
quote:

I'm not the one holding onto it. I will own it so long as it's thrown my way because it de-powers those who would use it against me.

Ok, I don't have the same perception as an observer. I believe you are all maintaining this image. I don't see anyone winning from it neither.
quote:

Well, that is indeed on them. Because I lost count of the number of threads I have been in where I have a conversation similar to the one we are having now. I've laid it out very plainly numerous times. Those who still don't get it, won't ever get it. They won't because they don't want to. They would rather take offense and fight the fight against an enemy. And that's fine. As my signature indicated, I will never shut up.

I'll give you that. I have my repeat attackers who only see me in one light. I don't think anyone could make them see that I'm not who they think I am.
quote:


Basically, yep. Perhaps if I were born in the 40's or 50's I'd be okay. Since I was not. I'm screwed.

Indeed. Though I don't know how old you are, but the dynamics of that era might not be exactly what you picture them to be. Just a thought.
quote:


There have been ones who tried to show me what I wanted to see, but in those instances it's roughly like a straight guy 'playing dom.' You know they're just playing a role and that's not how they really are. In the words of Hard Harry from "Pump Up The Volume" -- "I can smell a lie like a fart in a car."

Well surely you don't claim that there is only one model of dominance. On this point, I will have to disagree with you as I find you have a limited view of what a dominant is. I see many different forms of dominance here, some that I appreciate more than others of course.
quote:

I've had more than a few instances where I'd meet a girl, tell her up front I was an asshole. KNOW up front that there was no way she was finding me as funny as she appeared, or that she was as interested in my interests as I am. Sooner or later, my jokes don't get the laughs they once did.....my joking comments start fights....participating in my interests somehow meant I didn't care for her anymore.....she even calls me...*gasp* an asshole. To which I can only reply "Umm....yeah. We covered this when we met."

Well you are right in that if she knew in the beginning that you were an asshole, she shouldn't complain. But a more important question, why do you feel you need to be an asshole? Is this what you equate dominance to? I'm not implying, I'm asking in order to get a better understanding.
quote:

The problem is that the more I see what I see, the less I want to be involved in the whole 'relationship' world.
I can see that. There are things that I see that squick me as well. Though I know that the kind of man I want is out there. He is one in a million, but he exists and I know he will be a definite plus in my life.
quote:

And that, is a very long and winded way of saying "yes, my ideal woman does not exist." Since I can't fathom why anyone would want to 'settle' for an asshole like me, by that same token, I will not 'settle' for anyone else, either.
Maybe stop being an asshole? Is that possible? Just asking, honestly.
quote:

Perhaps, but the discord is all on them. I have fun. As we already discovered -- what I say is usually in jest, as theirs was originally. It's just that part of the joke for me is their reaction to my joke, especially after making such a similar 'joke' of their own. Just call me Captain Chaos, I guess. ;)

The moment we let ourselves be engaged by an agent of discord, the discord ceases to be on them and the responsability is joint. In other words, it takes two to tango.
quote:

I realize that it doesn't matter what people think of me.

I wish I could be so free of others opinion of me. I've been hard wired with a strong sense of pride and raised with high etiquette. Also, professionally, my reputation is paramount. I don't think I'll ever be able not to care.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't always understand, but I try. Thanks for your kind reply.

You try more than most. I'm always happy to answer questions. Just as long as you don't do like some here and attempt to answer those questions for me with some half-assed attempt at an insult.

So far, I think I've been fair. If something comes across as an insult, it was not my intent. I can be direct at times and that has put some people off.

- LA




Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 11:31:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Usually, I don't let bullying rile me. It does catch me off guard at times. I also think there is a difference between being riled up and making a statement that you do not appreciate the way you have been spoken to. When I do the latter, it is to call a spade a spade and to let the offensive party know that I will not be engaged by them.


That's one way of going about it. Personally, I prefer to counter the statement with one of my own. The outcome is usually more fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Indeed. Though I don't know how old you are, but the dynamics of that era might not be exactly what you picture them to be. Just a thought.


It's quite possible. However that just serves as another reason why she might be fictional. The time I have an idealized image of likely wasn't the way I picture it. Therefore, nothing is. And thus....she doesn't exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Well surely you don't claim that there is only one model of dominance. On this point, I will have to disagree with you as I find you have a limited view of what a dominant is. I see many different forms of dominance here, some that I appreciate more than others of course.


I don't have a limited view. The statement I made was merely an example. I have heard some people in the past say their relationship failed because their significant other was 'domming them' simply because they knew they liked being dommed, and not because they actually *were* dominant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Well you are right in that if she knew in the beginning that you were an asshole, she shouldn't complain. But a more important question, why do you feel you need to be an asshole? Is this what you equate dominance to? I'm not implying, I'm asking in order to get a better understanding.


I don't *need* to be an asshole. I *am* an asshole. It's a much longer story than you likely have time for. Suffice it to say that the phrase "nice guys finish last" is INDEED true. Well, after "finishing last" more times than I care to recall, and seeing more and more of the irritating tendencies of the opposite sex (and how it supports the nice guys finish last saying) I gradually became an asshole. And no, I don't equate that with dominance. The two are not mutually inclusive nor exclusive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I can see that. There are things that I see that squick me as well. Though I know that the kind of man I want is out there. He is one in a million, but he exists and I know he will be a definite plus in my life.


Good luck to you. My initial reaction when I detect "interest" now has become one of "what the hell is wrong with you that you're interested in ME? Or, a better question...what do you *really* want from me?" Trust issues? Yeah....I guess you could say that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Maybe stop being an asshole? Is that possible? Just asking, honestly.


Not really. I am who I am. Or, I am who I've become. And as I grow older, I know I'm only getting worse. The older I get, the less patience for bullshit I have and the less I'm willing to compromise. I've been getting along just fine on my own so far...why should I compromise to get along with someone else? Either they like me for me or they don't like me. And if they like me for me, we come back to the initial question of "what the hell is wrong with them or what do they *really* want from me?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
The moment we let ourselves be engaged by an agent of discord, the discord ceases to be on them and the responsability is joint. In other words, it takes two to tango.


You know, I've always been curious to learn to tango. Maybe one day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I wish I could be so free of others opinion of me. I've been hard wired with a strong sense of pride and raised with high etiquette. Also, professionally, my reputation is paramount. I don't think I'll ever be able not to care.


You'd have to have gone through the life of a geek. It's one I don't wish on anyone, but millions go through it every day.



LaTigresse -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 11:39:13 AM)

Yet most of us did not grow up to be a self professed 'asshole'. I am seriously curious why you chose that path and feel it is the best.

I share my home with another geek, yet 99.9% of the time, he is far from being an asshole and has a great life. He is loved, respected, and very well liked.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 11:56:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Yet most of us did not grow up to be a self professed 'asshole'. I am seriously curious why you chose that path and feel it is the best.

I share my home with another geek, yet 99.9% of the time, he is far from being an asshole and has a great life. He is loved, respected, and very well liked.


You're merging two answers to two different questions. Don't.

I'm an asshole because of my past relationships and my realization that I don't need to and will not compromise in order to have a relationship with a woman.

I don't care about others' views on my being an asshole because I grew up a geek and thus don't care what their opinion of me is.

The more succinct answer is -- I'm an asshole because I'm an asshole. I don't care what you think of my being an asshole because I grew up a geek and never cared what anyone's opinion of me is.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:01:19 PM)

If ones an asshole, they shouldnt be suprised when they get fucked in the ass. Nor should we be suprised when shit is pushed out.[8|]



LaTigresse -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:02:55 PM)

My apologies. I misread your words to mean that you were using the geek aspects as a reason for the asshole feature. It is unfortunate that you have allowed a few bad relationship choices to change your personality so dramatically. The positive is that you are quite comfortable with your asshole-ness. Even appear to embrace it. Which would cause an armchair psychiatrist to wonder if it hasn't simply become a very convenient armour against future bad relationship choices.



Aylee -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:13:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Yet most of us did not grow up to be a self professed 'asshole'. I am seriously curious why you chose that path and feel it is the best.



Because he has divided the world into three types of people.  Women, nice guys, and asshole males.  As if being a "woman" is the only distinctive trait possessed by women, and it is up to the "nice males" and the "asshole males" to compete for this commodity known as "womankind."  How can anyone hold such a mentality and still get confused when nobody sees them as being every woman's dream?

Basically what has happened is that he did not get a woman, as a "reward" for all his hard work pretending to be a decent person (aka nice guy). 

He has become one of those people who think that women must be attracted to assholes because they got dumped once or twice.  Who hasn't?  People like this need to stop seeing each individual as representing the whole of their sex.   When a woman dumps you, this is not a mass rejection by all women.   There is such thing as "individual circumstance," which means that people get together, people break up, and the who/what/why is going to vary.  Maybe it just didn't work out, and it will with another person.   Maybe not.  Maybe her reasons were valid, and it's time for some self-examination.  In any case, a breakup or two doesn't say jack shit about what "women," as a whole, think.



Aylee -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:14:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

My apologies. I misread your words to mean that you were using the geek aspects as a reason for the asshole feature.


Nah. . . that is just the "Wahhhhh!  Pity me, I was/am a geek.  It was sooooo bad, you all just cannot understand.  Let me play the victim card instead of getting on with my life." 



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:19:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The more succinct answer is -- I'm an asshole because I'm an asshole. I don't care what you think of my being an asshole because I grew up a geek and never cared what anyone's opinion of me is.



Quite an interesting statement.



heartcream -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:26:58 PM)

Dear Lord can we TALK about something else besides self-professed a-holes, the vibe is so nanananana.

Let's talk about, um.... what? Got any thing you wanna talk about?

Food?



Jeffff -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:33:35 PM)

I had pizza for lunch. I ordered it from a woman, I spoke to her. I was pleasant!


I don't think she wants to bang me though.

Jeff



Aylee -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:34:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

Dear Lord can we TALK about something else besides self-professed a-holes, the vibe is so nanananana.

Let's talk about, um.... what? Got any thing you wanna talk about?

Food?


To answer your original question, Heartcream, Deborah Tannen has done a great deal of research into talking between genders.  I suggest you pick up one or two of her books.  That should answer your questions. 

https://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/ 



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 12:34:43 PM)

Whatya makin for dinner tonight Hearty???



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