RE: Stem Cell Research

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MasterRenegade77 -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 2:09:02 PM)
I've heard that there is a new way to use your own stem cells which to Me would make the abortion objection Moot... I'm Pro-Choice I don't believe the Govt has any place in ones bedroom &/or Medical Life... I'm definately for stem cell research due to My disability & even some of the stauches conservatives have changed thier opinions.... I think what's best for humanity should be at the forefront instead of all this petty bickering...

FangsNfeet -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 3:06:13 PM)
On abortion: So what's the difference in killing someone before they pop out vs when they have been born? After all, many people have gone to prision for Double Homicide when killing a pregnant woman. Why shouldn't the mother be held accountable for murder when having an abortion if other people who kill unborn children are? As for stem cell research, it's good that you pointed out more ethical ways to obtain stem cells. After all, if you donated your sperm to an egg to create an embryo, would you destroy it cure your disability?

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 3:07:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77 I think what's best for humanity should be at the forefront instead of all this petty bickering... Therein lies the rub... I am truly sorry for whatever medical condition causes you ill health, MasterRenegade. But who decides what is best for humanity? I agree that there is research going on that makes the abortion issue moot. I also agree that this type of medical research belongs in the private sector, and not with the almighty government. And I am aware that just as much research is going on with embryonic stem cells, as with other stem cells. We must always remember that there was a little man with a big complex, a thin mustache and a fat ego, not so long ago, who tried to decide what was best for humanity. The only difference is that he resolved his issues with wholesale genocide, rather than with in vitro and selective breeding. And that is already going on , whether the general public wants to open their eyes to it or not. It is all part of the same thing. Just because we can do it, does that mean we should? So I do not consider it petty bickering. The lines become too blurred and too easy to cross. These issues are all intertwined and should provoke careful thought.

Level -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 3:45:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77 I've heard that there is a new way to use your own stem cells which to Me would make the abortion objection Moot... I'm Pro-Choice I don't believe the Govt has any place in ones bedroom &/or Medical Life... I'm definately for stem cell research due to My disability & even some of the stauches conservatives have changed thier opinions.... I think what's best for humanity should be at the forefront instead of all this petty bickering... Most folks on the pro-life side believe that abortion destroys humanity. So, if they speak out against that, you consider it "petty"? I truly don't care what consenting adults do in their bedrooms or with their bodies, but when a woman becomes pregnant, there are three people involved. For me to not say anything when I believe an innocent is being killed would fly in the face of whatever ethics I claim to have.

Level -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 3:47:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: "....'splain it to me, Looocyy"......If you would tell me, sure, I'd like to know, Celeste. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm very ignorant about much of this. Spares are frozen, destroyed in process or disposed of like.. trash. I vote for research rather than trash bins. Celeste *Thank you Celeste smiles. This is a tough subject......shakes head.* Level

Chaingang -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/28/2006 4:09:32 PM)
I agree with the this kind of ruling: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040708-011559-3954r.htm "The ruling by the 17-member court, based in Strasbourg, France, essentially refused to consider a fetus as a human being, entitled to the protection of criminal law." I certainly don't think a zygote or a fetus has rights that trump those of the adult female human being which it may inhabit. So yeah, research with fetus - why not? Waste not, want not... ... "This is it, folks. This is the idea which has kept me virtually unknown for the past 16 years. I have watched my crowds dwindle. I am going nowhere, and nowhere quick, but, those of you who have children, I am sorry to tell you this, but they are not special. Wait! I know some of you are going: 'What, what?' Let me just clarify: I know you think they're special ... ha ha ha! I'm aware of that. I'm just here to tell you that they're not! Ha ha ha ha! Sorry. Did you know that every time a guy comes, he comes two-hundred million sperm? One out of two-hundred million – that load, we're only talking about one load – connected: Gee, what are the fucking odds? Do you know what that means? I've wiped nations off've my chest with a grey gymsock. Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel! [...] I've tossed universes in my underpants while napping. Boom! A Milkyway shoots into my jockeyshorts: 'Unngh ... what's for fucking breakfast?!'" - Bill Hicks

krys -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 3:53:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet On abortion: So what's the difference in killing someone before they pop out vs when they have been born? After all, many people have gone to prision for Double Homicide when killing a pregnant woman. Why shouldn't the mother be held accountable for murder when having an abortion if other people who kill unborn children are? Not everyone shares your view that a clump of fertilized cells and a person are the same thing. I understand your view, I respect it, but I don't share it. The pregnant woman is not held accountable because even the Supreme Court did not believe that abortion and murder are the same thing. quote: As for stem cell research, it's good that you pointed out more ethical ways to obtain stem cells. After all, if you donated your sperm to an egg to create an embryo, would you destroy it cure your disability? If can not state anything about what I would feel about sperm, but I would be okay with embryos that would otherwise be destroyed being utilized for stem cell research, even if it were my eggs involved.

yieldingcontrol -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 4:04:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet On abortion: So what's the difference in killing someone before they pop out vs when they have been born? The difference would be one is a convenient political football, and the other most people could care less about.

Level -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 4:05:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yieldingcontrol quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet On abortion: So what's the difference in killing someone before they pop out vs when they have been born? The difference would be one is a convenient political football, and the other most people could care less about. Actually the phrase is "couldn't care less". Not "could".

FangsNfeet -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 9:02:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: krys If can not state anything about what I would feel about sperm, but I would be okay with embryos that would otherwise be destroyed being utilized for stem cell research, even if it were my eggs involved. Okay, let me know when you get pregnant. This way, we can suck out your unborn child auction him/her off to highest bidding stem cell research team. Between Ali and MJ Fox, who would pay more for your unborn child so they can slice and dice him/her for a chance to cure there disease? Going once, going twice, SOLD!

BrutalAntipathy -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 9:16:07 PM)
*Yeah, much better to let millions of kids starve to death in Ethiopia. Thats real humane!*

Chaingang -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/29/2006 10:25:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Going once, going twice, SOLD! You think you are being funny or tedious, or both - but it's the truth. This could actually be a way of making some dough for some folks the same way they sell eggs or sperm or even carry children to term for pay. Money talks, bullshit walks...

IronBear -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 12:10:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Okay, let me know when you get pregnant. This way, we can suck out your unborn child auction him/her off to highest bidding stem cell research team. Between Ali and MJ Fox, who would pay more for your unborn child so they can slice and dice him/her for a chance to cure there disease? Going once, going twice, SOLD! Probably the most thoughless, crass, unfeeling and plane hasty posts I've seen for along time. FnF I thought far better of you than to make such a personalised attack.....

Level -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 2:15:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy *Yeah, much better to let millions of kids starve to death in Ethiopia. Thats real humane!* Millions of kids don't have to starve in Ethiopia or anywhere else.

FangsNfeet -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 4:09:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Probably the most thoughless, crass, unfeeling and plane hasty posts I've seen for along time. FnF I thought far better of you than to make such a personalised attack..... Embyo, Zygote, Fetus, or whatever else you would like to call an unborn child, it's good that you're starting to see the harsh reality of using such a child for stem cell research. When you know it's your kid, do you consider the pregnancy just a glob of gloop that can be used for experimentation or your living child waiting to be born? Assuming that you have children, did you love them any less than you do now when your wife told you she was pregnant?

krys -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 4:22:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Okay, let me know when you get pregnant. This way, we can suck out your unborn child auction him/her off to highest bidding stem cell research team. Between Ali and MJ Fox, who would pay more for your unborn child so they can slice and dice him/her for a chance to cure there disease? Going once, going twice, SOLD! The problem with flying off the handle and making assumptions is you tend to miss the mark. I'm a proud mother. And from personal experience, I can say I would have preferred that I had the option to make those fetuses I miscarried when trying available for scientific research. Let me know when you have layed there with a doctor sucking out your unborn child to stop you from bleeding to death, then we can compare experiences on that subject. As to the other, I would donate egg cells for scientific purposes. As I said, you and I don't have a common view as to when "life" begins.

krys -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 4:24:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Assuming that you have children, did you love them any less than you do now when your wife told you she was pregnant? Assuming all pregnancies are wanted and loved children waiting to happen. It would be nice to live in fantasy land, but we don't.

IronBear -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 6:34:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Probably the most thoughless, crass, unfeeling and plane hasty posts I've seen for along time. FnF I thought far better of you than to make such a personalised attack..... Embyo, Zygote, Fetus, or whatever else you would like to call an unborn child, it's good that you're starting to see the harsh reality of using such a child for stem cell research. When you know it's your kid, do you consider the pregnancy just a glob of gloop that can be used for experimentation or your living child waiting to be born? Assuming that you have children, did you love them any less than you do now when your wife told you she was pregnant? Yeah I have one son who lives with his mother and I can't see him till I can get the bitch into court and ensure she does a minimum of 7 years hard time.. FnF, I'm probably as aware if not more so of the arguments for and against as you are.. I'm with krys in that you and I can never agree as to where life as such or when the soul enters for that matter. I dare say in some ways I even hold life more precious than you do based only on the fact I've taken lives. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but that doesn't excuse you making attacking posts on someone who, like me has different concepts and beliefs in this matter....

Chaingang -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 11:21:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear ...I'm with krys in that you and I can never agree as to where life as such or when the soul enters for that matter. I think we all know that a tiny mass of cells that keeps splitting is actually alive - I just happen not to care about that, nor does anyone else. People miscarry and we do not hold funerals for that mass of cells do we? At most, people may mourn a missed opportunity and try again - presuming they even want to have a child. Many others see themselves as having been pregnant and then simply not - big whoop or maybe even a sigh of relief. So really this whole "is it a human being with rights?" shit is mainly about a human conceit - the concept of a soul: that a mass of cells that may or may not become a human being outside the womb is imbued with a soul and that it is therefore "spiritually immoral" to destroy it. Personally, and I think for the vast majority of people in the U.S. at least, proof for any legal concept or ruling is REQUIRED. Where's the proof of a soul? Oh right, there isn't any. Sperm is not sacred. People spill that stuff endlessly and no one sheds a tear. Eggs are not sacred. People catch them up in sanitary napkins and toss the results all the time. Zygotes come and go - and all without tears. A fetus may or may not carry to term - that's why life uses a shotgun approach to procreation. Okay, so if you think every mass of cells your body produces is sacred that's okay with me. Don't want an abortion, don't have one. Don't want to support stem cell research, don't. God makes cancer cells so cancer is therefore sacred too, right? So please enjoy your right to any fool thing that enters your head; just please do the rest of us a great favor and leave everyone else the fuck alone. Your ideas are grand for you, but don't mean spittle to anyone else. ... And BTW... Newsflash: It's a world of some six billion people and growing. And some of you that are here already are no great prize and hardly sacred in my view. Not every "child of god" is precious. Yeah, I know that's how we treat all people under the law - that every human being is precious in some ineffable way. You know what? That's just a good rule of thumb and the way laws need to work so that everyone gets their chance at a decent life - but if the truth were told we all know that some people are a waste of flesh. That's a fact. The world might have become a better place without the likes of Adolph Hitler. Some people in Iraq might think the world could have been a better place without the likes of either Saddam Hussein or George Bush Jr. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em: when I see a rabid dog I put it down. I don't sit there and wonder about it's rights to life while it bites me. Now just imagine that some rabid dogs are actually human beings and you get the picture. It's not any one race, creed, religion, or anything else. I know about this stuff case by case. It's just a fact that not all human beings are worthy of the life they have. It's not my fault and I don't make it my mission to take their lives away from them - it's just an observation.

Gauge -> RE: Stem Cell Research (3/30/2006 2:05:50 PM)
Chain, this is not a direct reply to you. It is interesting to see how this topic of debate is panning out. I am still here on this thread lurking but not posting more because it was something that I wanted to see how everyone felt about stem cell research. I was not aware that there were alternate sources of stem cells. I hope that arena can be explored. The original question basically was that if they are going to do abortions anyway, should we not (no matter your stance on abortion) use the remains for science. For the pro-life people it would be at least something redeeming coming from an abortion and for the pro-choice people it would mean the same thing only slightly less impassioned. I am not sure what the ultimate benefits science hopes to get out of this type of research. Anyone have any suggested reading (online) that I can look at?

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