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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/14/2010 8:52:46 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
thatgawddamnswaggeringsonuvbitchBushilter bastard ...



yeh but why did the republicans help fund obahahahahas champaign


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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/14/2010 10:10:14 PM   
jlf1961


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If there is a way to capture terrorists alive, then by all means do it. If there isnt, killing them is the best alternative.

I would go so far as to make the attempt to perform an act of terrorism to be a capital offense, punishable by death. The have the idea that if the die in a terrorist attack, then we should be more than helpful in helping them meet Allah, or who ever they pray to.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/14/2010 10:21:40 PM   
StrangerThan


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The usual suspects will show up. Never fear.

And in the showing, will pick one or two lines to use as debating points. It allows folks to deflect and ignore the thrust of the discussion. Perhaps even more importantly, it allows them to avoid any sense of responsibility.



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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/14/2010 10:34:44 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Well, perhaps more people would join in the discussion if Firm were to actually.. you know... start a discussion. Ask an actual question, or even articulate a position, rather than just toss out another one of his strawman trolls and wait to see who rises to the bait. Everybody's seen this a hundred times before, and I'm guessing people are just too bored with it to play along this time. 

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/14/2010 11:09:11 PM   
EbonyWood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The usual suspects will show up. Never fear.

And in the showing, will pick one or two lines to use as debating points. It allows folks to deflect and ignore the thrust of the discussion. Perhaps even more importantly, it allows them to avoid any sense of responsibility.




You want to tell me what sense of responsibilty I need to have? Over and above yours? Or the guy on the corners?
 
There is no 'thrust of the discussion'. Stop using the boards to have a wank over some issue you feel superior about. You look more like a cunt every time.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 4:23:29 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The usual suspects will show up. Never fear.

And in the showing, will pick one or two lines to use as debating points. It allows folks to deflect and ignore the thrust of the discussion. Perhaps even more importantly, it allows them to avoid any sense of responsibility.




You want to tell me what sense of responsibilty I need to have? Over and above yours? Or the guy on the corners?
 
There is no 'thrust of the discussion'. Stop using the boards to have a wank over some issue you feel superior about. You look more like a cunt every time.


Explaining things to people who don't understand is one thing. Explaining them to people who refuse to is another.
Explaining them to people who use clipped little shitty sentences to express that sense of superiority is a waste of time.

As far as responsibility, I think that's something you're supposed to understand.



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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 4:34:28 AM   
Politesub53


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I will rise to the baiting. I have always said if they are sure who the terrorists are, then take them out. The problem I had with Gitmo was the number of innocent people kept there on little more than hearsay.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 4:41:52 AM   
Aynne88


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Good morning Firm. Usual suspect present and accounted for.

Absolute certainty that they are engaged in or planning a terrorist act against the US?  Kill the fuckers.

Keep human beings in Gitmo or simialr for months or years based on nada like little shrub did? No.

Now if only kittin comes and plays Firm will be happy. If that is Firm can ever be happy with Obama running the country . Sweet sweet justice after the 8 years we had to suffer through Firm, trust me on that.



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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 8:35:45 AM   
LadyEllen


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If an “enemy combatant” is on the battlefield, engaged in fighting, then there is no issue with killing him if the opportunity arises. If he attempts to surrender then notwithstanding his apparent and alleged lack of protection under the Geneva Convention it could be said that there is nonetheless a duty to accept his surrender rather than to kill him, and to process him according to what is lawful even if this should vary (apparently and allegedly) from the norms of the Geneva Convention.

The question must be asked however, what and where is the battlefield? The easy answer would be to say that the battlefield is where the battle takes place within a designated warzone, but this is far from satisfactory in what is an asymmetrical conflict akin to guerrilla or partisan warfare, where the battlefield remains “where the battle takes place” but is of a highly fluid nature with no frontline.

The battlefield is then anywhere that fighting breaks out within the warzone, often determined by the enemy. But still this is unsatisfactory, for it hands an enormous advantage to the enemy to determine where and when battle shall take place, (Generalship 101), and since in denying him this advantage, anywhere in the warzone may be made the battlefield upon our initiation, having determined targets or objectives of value to our cause, we may imply that the battlefield is in fact anywhere within the warzone that either side chooses it to be.

Thus we may kill or capture anywhere within the warzone, which raises the question as to what is the warzone? Clearly there is great legal precedent we can refer to here arising from Nuremberg and other international law which determines that we may not simply choose to fight a war – designate a warzone - where there is no lawful cause to do so. For instance, we may not make Pakistan part of our designated warzone in the context of Afghanistan, (a properly designated warzone), without the permission of Pakistan or attack on us by Pakistan. 

From this we can say that it is perfectly in order to kill or capture “enemy combatants” anywhere we find them within the warzone, whether the battle be initiated by us or by them and whether there is a battle or a ready surrender to us without a shot being fired.

Kill or capture away from the warzone however is more problematic. Its justification, if there can be such at all, must be based on intelligence evidence of active support for the enemy or past or planned participation in the fighting – but this is not enough when the suspect is located in a jurisdiction quite distinct from the warzone and not participating in the fighting at the time such that we might rely on our prior arguments.

If we are to proceed lawfully, then we cannot simply enter another territory without permission with the intent to murder or kidnap – which is after all what we are talking about when these things occur outside of the warzone and outside of lawful authorisation. Rather we should have to rely on the criminal justice system of the territory, assuming an offence has taken place or is being planned under the law of the territory, to arrest, try and convict the person of interest or to arrange for his extradition into our own criminal justice system as appropriate. If no offence has taken place or is being planned under that territory’s law then we must consider our hands tied as far as direct action is concerned – though we reserve of course the means to exert economic and diplomatic pressure towards our aims.

But do we need to proceed lawfully? Certainly we do not want to it would appear, but I would argue that we do need to, however unsatisfactory it may seem when the blood is up and vengeance dominates our thoughts. Our problem ultimately here stems from decades of poor and even hostile policies towards those who have taken arms against us, and for whom we are the epitome of unlawful evil as a consequence. Any of us, faced with a like situation, might take the same stand and action as those facing us now.

If we go about our business in such a way as to confirm their view of us as unlawful evildoers, we can only expect this to become their best recruiting sergeant and just as importantly a means to silence the dissent of more moderate Muslims to radical, fundamentalist and hostile worldviews. If meanwhile we show that much of our strength comes from a firm belief in lawful, just and righteous behaviour, we take this away from the enemy and hurt him much more seriously than we might by adopting his own manners and methods, by demonstrating that we are not the bad guys and reducing the potential for further radicalisation.

Our dilemna may be summed up as a question of whether it is right that maketh might or might which maketh right. Let us have faith that the former rather than the latter is the case.

E


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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 8:43:44 AM   
popeye1250


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"Obama as mass killer", hey, I like it!

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 8:49:45 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I can remember several threads in which some of us made the argument that if we didn't have a system so that we could detain and interrogate terrorist, or even suspected terrorist, that the unfortunate result would be more dead terrorists on the battlefields.

Of course, this was laughed off...


Really?

By whom?





If you are asking who raised the argument awhile back, I know I mentioned it in a thread or three.

The entire concept of having to maintain a "crime scene", chain of possession on evidence, and worrying about reading a detainee his miranda rights, seemed crazy to me back then and still does.

"Hey corporal, don't forget to photograph and bag and tag each of those shell casings, don't forget to dust for fingerprints on that RPG, and whatever you do don't contaminate this crime scene while dodging incoming fire."

I saw a response from the administration explaining that the reason there are more kills than captures since they came into office, is because of technology. They claim that it is just easier to kill at a distance now (as opposed to a year and a half ago). It couldn't possibly have anything to do with prisoners being treated as criminals (in terms of legal rights) instead of enemy combatants.

I keep waiting to see all of the subpeonas of men and women in the field to testify in these trials. That should make for a great experience.


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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 9:22:28 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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No, Thadius, I was trying to figure out what Firm was talking about when he said people were "laughing off" the suggestion that we needed a set of procedures for detaining and interrogating suspected terrorists on the battlefield. He thought it was important enough to start a thread about, but apparently doesn't think it was important enough to explain. 

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 9:30:53 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

No, Thadius, I was trying to figure out what Firm was talking about when he said people were "laughing off" the suggestion that we needed a set of procedures for detaining and interrogating suspected terrorists on the battlefield. He thought it was important enough to start a thread about, but apparently doesn't think it was important enough to explain. 


Thanks for the clarification.

There were quite a few around here that suggested I was an idiot (perhaps not in those words) for making the suggestion that if it came to a choice of acting lilke a police officer at a crime scene (on a battlefield) and killing the enemy, that the latter would be the result. I would suspect it may even be an "unspoken" order that came down the chain of command, to avoid the obvious pitfalls of treating war like police work. I may try to dig the threads up later today.

I am not trying to cast a bad light on any of the warriors or operators in the field, as they are the best trained and responsible force to ever exist. Just stating what seems like a smarter, safer, and more effective set of ROE.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 9:32:10 AM   
mnottertail


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We had an army field manual on that. Been one for years and years and years ...

FM 27-10 and that they even taught you in basic training.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 9:54:46 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We had an army field manual on that. Been one for years and years and years ...

FM 27-10 and that they even taught you in basic training.


It still leaves a bit of grey area... as it relates to anticipate military advantage.

quote:


41. Unnecessary Killing and Devastation
Particularly in the circumstances referred to in the preceding paragraph, loss of life and damage to
property incidental to attacks must not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military
advantage expected to be gained. Those who plan or decide upon an attack, therefore, must take all
reasonable steps to ensure not only that the objectives are identified as military objectives or defended
places within the meaning of the preceding paragraph but also that these objectives may be attacked
without probable losses in lives and damage to property disproportionate to the military advantage
anticipated. Moreover, once a fort or defended locality has surrendered, only such further damage is
permitted as is demanded by the exigencies of war, such as the removal of fortifications, demolition of
military buildings, and destruction of military stores (HR, art. 23, par. (g); GC, art. 53). By Order of the
Secretary of the Army:


Yeah, I know you were referring to the sections on individual conduct, primarily the treatment of prisoners and such. However, haven't we already gone far beyond some of those regulations by putting bounties on the heads of individuals.

Unless you were talking about how we are to determine how to treat these individuals on the battlefield...

quote:


80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities
Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and
commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions prescribed
by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW,
art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not
entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and
sentenced to execution or imprisonment.

81. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Commit Hostile Acts
Persons who, without having complied with the conditions prescribed
by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW,
art. 4; par. 61 herein), commit hostile acts about or behind the lines
of the enemy are not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be
tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Such acts include,
but are not limited to, sabotage, destruction of communications facilities,
intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners
of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the
Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague
Regulations.

82. Penalties for the Foregoing
Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed,
or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject
to the extreme penalty of death because of the danger inherent in their
conduct.
Lesser penalties may, however, be imposed.


Correct me if I am wrong...

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 10:06:16 AM   
mnottertail


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nope, I'm in all the way, friend Thadius....if not captured committing on the battlefield or in the battle area then not with it. different rules for that. on the other hand you dont execute them by courts martial (either formal or summary) then some time later do it, not ok.

Lt. William Calley was given a wink and let go after a couple years for a violation of this policy and UCMJ regulations, nevertheless......

Ron

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 10:08:33 AM   
LadyEllen


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It seems then that the Field Manual makes it clear that "enemy combatants" are to be tried, and on conviction may be sentenced to imprisonment or death. It also seems clear that "enemy combatants" are not to be treated as POWs and hence may not be detained according to the provisions attaching to POWs, particularly with regard to their internment until hostilities are ended. The question remains as it would seem as to under which jurisdiction "enemy combatants" must be tried - and all in all one must presume that this jurisdiction would be that of their captors, with the attendant processes being followed, which indicates in turn that they must enjoy all of the protections and facilities of those processes.

But this does not address the problem of alleged "enemy combatants" captured - quite unlawfully as it would seem - elsewhere other than within the warzone?

E

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 10:19:06 AM   
domiguy


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Do we have any missiles or UAV's that are capable of capturing an enemy or at least questioning them before they do their thing?

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 10:28:59 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It seems then that the Field Manual makes it clear that "enemy combatants" are to be tried, and on conviction may be sentenced to imprisonment or death. It also seems clear that "enemy combatants" are not to be treated as POWs and hence may not be detained according to the provisions attaching to POWs, particularly with regard to their internment until hostilities are ended. The question remains as it would seem as to under which jurisdiction "enemy combatants" must be tried - and all in all one must presume that this jurisdiction would be that of their captors, with the attendant processes being followed, which indicates in turn that they must enjoy all of the protections and facilities of those processes.

But this does not address the problem of alleged "enemy combatants" captured - quite unlawfully as it would seem - elsewhere other than within the warzone?

E


First, the biggest distinction is that the "enemy combatant" must be captured for there to be a trial. With the recent changes to perceived policy (i.e. captured prisoners are going to get all of the rights of a citizen), captures are down.

Secondly, there are provisions in the Geneva and Hague conventions that prescribe the treatment of non uniformed combatants and "terrorists". I am too lazy to dig them up currently, but have posted them on these boards before. Basicly, if no country (party to the conventions) claims them, and they are acting in a hostile manner, they are subject to the party that comes in contact with them. Meaning, if a squad of Marines comes across them in the act, they should count on a few rounds being fired in a definite and decisive way.

Here in the US, Congress determines jurisdiction, and has made the ruling that military tribunals are to be the way to handle such cases. Tis a shame that the AG has deemed it within his power to change that ruling. Expect some sort of litigation on that one.

Finally, it is a grey area when discussing what is the battle field in relation to the current "wars". We are obviously not fighting against the Iraqui or Afghan governments. Terrorism is seen to be an anywhere, anytime, sort of thing. So does this open up the warzone to be anywhere there are hostilities? I can't answer that question.

As I noted in another response, it is no surprise to me that the men and women in the line of fire have opted for more of a "screw the trial" attitude when it comes to dealing with hostile forces. Not that they don't believe in law and order, but because they are legally able to ensure their own safety by returning fire instead of collecting evidence.

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RE: Remember all those discussions we had about the &qu... - 2/15/2010 11:01:09 AM   
mnottertail


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<snip>
Here in the US, Congress determines jurisdiction, and has made the ruling that military tribunals are to be the way to handle such cases. Tis a shame that the AG has deemed it within his power to change that ruling. Expect some sort of litigation on that one.......
<snip>

The 300 being bandied about that Bush tried in civilian courts is too heavy, but even at 25% of that..........

I don't remember anywhere where congress decided military tribunals.....can you cite that Thadius?

Ron

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