RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message


CelticNightmare -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 10:35:26 AM)

I do find it rather frustrating that so many people seem to be so rigidly stuck in "D/s FantasyLand"........that people only come to exist as a vehichle to reenforce it. This is not a sane way to aproach a human relationship.




texangael -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticNightmare

Why can't we just do what we like togeher-and quit worrying about what the Jone's are doing?

Do we really have to write "War and Peace" length tomes to justify something this simple?

I am not so much worried about what the Jones' are doing than I am worried about what I am doing, and looking at the Jones' for possible ideas on how to do it better.

No one has to write "War and Peace", but the reflection that comes with writing is sometimes a worthwhile exercise in its own right.




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:13:23 PM)

Lorenzo - thank you for your response. I think mostly we just have different definitions of equality, or different ways of looking at it. I don't think we fundamentally disagree. Your relationship with your sub sounds perfect for you both, and I'm glad you've found a balance that works for you. For me, I've yet to meet a person on this earth who is better at making my decisions than I am. I think DesFIP is right in that when I find the Dom who is right for me, that may very well change, and I'll happily relax into less autonomy, but for now, how could I let go of that level of control with someone?

You said if your sub was "capable of managing certain things she has limited autonomy with those things." What if she was not only capable, but as good or better than you at managing most things? Would you still have the last word if she had a firmer grasp on her situation? What bothered me in my last relationship with a Dom is that he would make decisions for me that actually detracted from my life, because he had a specific view of me that he wanted to make a firmer reality. I had to constantly be letting him know that I couldn't do what he was telling me to do because of X, Y and Z, and that annoyed him to no end. He had decided that my submission was the most important thing about me, and I didn't agree.

That's where equality comes into it for me. He wanted his vote on my decisions to count more than mine, and I wanted mine to count more than his. I wanted as much control over myself as he has control over himself. That, to me, is equality. My definition - not the be all and end all of definitions of equality.

I don't think the concept of inequality should make you shiver - you really must admit that there is a power imbalance in any 24/7 D/s relationship. That's not a judgment, it's just true. Submission is giving up power. You and your sub do not have equal power. That's all I mean by equality.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:14:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: texangael

No one has to write "War and Peace", but the reflection that comes with writing is sometimes a worthwhile exercise in its own right.


[sm=agree.gif]




CelticNightmare -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:14:39 PM)

Some people are just not into making compromises in how they like to live. So you find someone who Likes similar things-and you weed out a lot of conflict.

At the same time,you do still need to have useable relationship skills,accountability..etc.....Structure and protocol will never be a substitute for a working relationship with practical concerns and things working out.

I see way too many people running for the percieved safety of D/s,because they just seriously suck at vanilla. If you suck at something that simple-you will do even worse in a structured enviornment.

There are no quick fixes to make one a functional adult-if you have not already arrived at the point.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:38:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticNightmare

Some people are just not into making compromises in how they like to live. So you find someone who Likes similar things-and you weed out a lot of conflict.

At the same time,you do still need to have useable relationship skills,accountability..etc.....Structure and protocol will never be a substitute for a working relationship with practical concerns and things working out.

I see way too many people running for the percieved safety of D/s,because they just seriously suck at vanilla.


LOL, I'm laughing about how true this is.

Some people are drawn to the D/s thinking they will find a submissive that will put up with their Dysfunctional Bullshit, "but but but... Only owners are permitted to release slaves, slaves are not supposed to release themselves".

Some people are expecting to find a Dom that will put up with their dysfunctional bullshit in exchange for sex. "but but but... you committed yourself to owning me for ever".

This whole misconception of BDSM being extremely apart from vanilla world concepts leads to an endless supply of thread topics. Some of the most popular gems are..


  • How do I please my Master?
  • How do I punish my submissive/slave?
  • Is it wrong for me to Ask my Master?
  • Is it wrong to fillfull a submissives desires?
  • Help, my master wants me to fuck myself with Barbwire, what do i do?




CelticNightmare -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:42:33 PM)

Or insisting on calling what they like "true".

Which of course-invalidates anything they dislike.

Like the despised "vanilla"-which is just a code word for.."Having to support myself in the real world"




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 12:57:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: texangael


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticNightmare

Why can't we just do what we like togeher-and quit worrying about what the Jone's are doing?

Do we really have to write "War and Peace" length tomes to justify something this simple?

I am not so much worried about what the Jones' are doing than I am worried about what I am doing, and looking at the Jones' for possible ideas on how to do it better.

No one has to write "War and Peace", but the reflection that comes with writing is sometimes a worthwhile exercise in its own right.


Define better? I'm going to attempt to express an activitity using a number of different perspectives, tell me which one is better. It's involved going to an Art Gallery (where you can purchase an assortment of things from various artisans).


  • You go there with your pet (sub/slave) on the end of a leash or not?
  • Your submissive has to be at the side of the Dominant every moment while there.
  • Both the sub and Dom can part seperate ways and explore things.
  • The submissive has permission to ask for things to buy.
  • The submissive is not permitted to ask for anything.
  • The submissive is given a spending allowence for this occasion.
  • The submissive has a general spending allowence for the month.
  • The submissive has no spending allowence whatsoever.
  • The personal taste in things on display differs greatly between Dom and sub.
  • The personal taste in things on display differs little between Dom and sub.
  • The Dominant partner entrusts the submissive with all decorating duties to select items to buy.
  • The Dominant buys and purchases only things according to their liking and requires no input from the submissive.
  • The Dominant partner allows for the submissive to ask for things, provided they Beg for it.
  • The Dominant insists upon sexual fondling to occur in less visable areas of the Gallery.


Whew, I by no means covered all the different cases, to this one very simple activitity. So just what are the Jones doing? What are the best possible ideas here? What other ideas can you think of regarding this simple activitity that's really not so simple. What is truely best?

(edited to expands things a little more)

What if the Dominant sucks at money management skills?
What if the submissive sucks at money management skills?
What if BOTH Dom and submissive suck at money management?

Who is better at what again? here comes reality. Some submissives are better at money management compared to their Dom partners. Now, comes reality or realism! (ahhh...true balance that's needed for the relationship to work regardless of D/s)

Trying to keep up with the Jones just might cost you, in more ways than one. Just saying.




Lorenzo19 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/16/2010 7:18:52 PM)

jujubee asked:
You said if your sub was "capable of managing certain things she has limited autonomy with those things." What if she was not only capable, but as good or better than you at managing most things? Would you still have the last word if she had a firmer grasp on her situation?


my girl is better at some things than I am. Like house work. she is better, faster and more conscientious. I don't interfer. But I reserve the right to step in when it is not getting done, which is very rare. If I did interfer it would NOT be to tell her how to clean. It would be to find out 'why?' first. Usually it is because she is trying to do too much and cant get it all done. Then I offer to help her with certain chores or maybe help her prioitize things.

Here is the beauty of Equality: she can do the same thing when I am not getting My projects done.

The difference is I am ultimately responsible that things get done, so I have the final decision as to how to get it done when ever there is a disagreement as to how.

I don't like pulling rank. When there is disagreement We try to nut it out first and come to an agreement. The bigger the issue the more time I spend trying to find agreement. Only after that will I pull rank and exert My Domliness.

The $800 dollar pair of boots example. she cannot decide on her own to buy those boots. Conversely, I wouldnt buy them either, without consulting her. There is the equality.

I recently wanted to buy her a new matress because she is having back trouble. The matress cost $1000. I discussed it with her first. she thought it was too much money to spend. We discussed it on and off for two weeks. We finally reached agreement that WE should buy the matress. Result: no bad feelings. no rank pulled. We bought the matress and after one night her back was feeling much improved.

The scenario would have been exactly the same if it were MY back having trouble.

If after sufficent debate neither of us are able to persuade the other and no agreement was reached only then would I pull rank and decide one way or the other. That is the autonomy. It keeps the peace when there is no other way.













jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 12:09:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

jujubee asked:

my girl is better at some things than I am. Like house work. she is better, faster and more conscientious. I don't interfer. But I reserve the right to step in when it is not getting done, which is very rare.



This is exactly what doesn't work for me, though it clearly works for you, which is great. If I was constantly doing a set of chores in the house - or doing ALL the housekeeping chores in the house - and I dropped the ball for a few days and my boyfriend said to me, "why isn't the house clean?" they would never find his body :) Seriously, though, I personally find that extremely obnoxious, when not only am I doing all the work at something, but I'm also the one who knows all the details of how to get it done, and someone else comes waltzing in to criticize, even pleasantly. Hence why I'm not seeking a 24/7 situation [:)]




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 12:19:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

jujubee asked:

my girl is better at some things than I am. Like house work. she is better, faster and more conscientious. I don't interfer. But I reserve the right to step in when it is not getting done, which is very rare.



This is exactly what doesn't work for me, though it clearly works for you, which is great. If I was constantly doing a set of chores in the house - or doing ALL the housekeeping chores in the house - and I dropped the ball for a few days and my boyfriend said to me, "why isn't the house clean?" they would never find his body :) Seriously, though, I personally find that extremely obnoxious, when not only am I doing all the work at something, but I'm also the one who knows all the details of how to get it done, and someone else comes waltzing in to criticize, even pleasantly. Hence why I'm not seeking a 24/7 situation [:)]


Just find yourself somebody who's into doing the housework too. There's also a big difference between criticizing verses expressing a notice that something that normally gets done was not done. Now if somebody was inspecting your work like an Army Boot Camp Drill instructor and was going over things with a fine tooth comb.. that would be a different story.

(edited to add).. From my perspective as a DOM, if somebody was slacking (without good cause such as illness, crazy work schedule) and not keeping up with their share of the work load, you'd betcha your rosey red cheeky bottom I'd be saying something about it, and having a good with them, looking to correct/fix the issue. Even find out what the issue really is. Sorry, I just wanted to add this.




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 1:08:28 AM)

All for sharing the workload. If everyone is sharing the workload, then I'm happy as a clam. [:)]




Lorenzo19 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 1:20:26 AM)

I tend to do all the repair work around he house and I am very capable at it. When nikki repairs things they just get more broke.

I wouldn't feel criticized if nikki were to tell Me the faucet was leaking. Maybe I didnt notice. or maybe I forgot about it. or maybe I was distracted. or maybe I knew about it and hadnt got to it yet. she doesnt know that. All she knows is the faucet is leaking and it shouldn't be leaking. So maybe I don't have time to do it today. she could suggest calling a plumber.

so what if she doesnt tell Me and a month later I notice the floor is rotted out. And she says she didnt tell Me because she was afraid I would smash her face in for being critical. Or worse lies about having proir knowledge because if she admits she knew about it I would smash her face in for not telling Me.

I like the first way better. she shouldn't be afraid to tell Me anything in a friendly way. Even if she is bitter about it I still want to know. Then I'll spank her for being bitter. Equality... I can't be bitter to her.




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 1:54:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

I like the first way better. she shouldn't be afraid to tell Me anything in a friendly way. Even if she is bitter about it I still want to know. Then I'll spank her for being bitter. Equality... I can't be bitter to her.


Try to avoid total non sequiturs when making an argument. Saying "equality...I can't be bitter to her" in the way you used it is like saying "ice cream... there are seven ducks over there." [;)] Seriously, though, slipping "equality" into your arguments isn't going to change my mind about what it means. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.




DesFIP -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 6:39:33 AM)

But someone loving saying to you, "what's wrong, you've been getting by on frozen dinners instead of those great meals you usually make?" isn't necessarily criticism. It's an observation that your usual behavior has changed and a sincere desire to know why so as to help. And that's a far cry from someone demanding you spend three hours cooking some special dish when you didn't even get out of work till 6:30PM.

Why do you assume that any observation is actually a veiled criticism? Or is that how it operated in your family? Because there are indeed people who do that. But equally, there are people who don't have a hidden agenda and you don't seem to be recognizing that.




Lorenzo19 -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 10:01:26 AM)

jujubee, sounds as if you want someone to change your mind. That was never My intention. But, if that is what you seek try looking for something you agree with, rather than the other way round.




TopChuck -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 11:58:05 AM)

The power exchange dynamic creates D/s balance; not equality.

The submissive always has the power to withhold consent, no matter how deep the level of commitment to the relationship, by the submissive.

Therefore, ultimate power always resides with the submissive.  An argument can be made that the exchange is egalitarian, although the relationship isn't.

Control is relinquished to the extent of the trust earned by the Dominant.  The Dominant earns that trust by providing the elements to the submissive that reward the submissive for the gift of submission.  Equality in the relationship is voluntarily relinquished by the submissive.  The submissive exchanges (en)trust(ment) for being taken under the protection of the Dominant.

The ultimate power, which resides with the submissive - because of the right to withhold consent - can be given in the form of control of the relationship to the Dominant to the extent that all control is relinquished.  Submission is voluntarily allowing an imbalance of equality in the relationship, in exchange for being under the protection of the Dominant.

Because of the right to withhold consent, equality can be reacquired rather quickly.  The consent factor creates the balance in the power exchange.

quote:

3. but not outside of sex because she wants 'equality' at all other times.


That statement of desire for equal right of control is the measure of "trust" in that particular relationship.  At that level, the relationship is D/D, not D/s, in all circumstances outside the bedroom.  In D/D relationships, there is no entrusting.  Each party has equal power - or if you prefer, no power, within the relationship.  Each maintains equal right of control.


Further, there is no real exchange of power outside the bedroom, because the power exchange always occurs as D/s - and only in D/s.  D/s involves someone taking control and someone submitting to control.  As in most human relationships, each gets something and each gives up something, in the exchange.

(It's easy to illustrate that D/D and S/S are equal, with no movement or exchange of any element for control. D=D, S=S.) 

The exchange can be very balanced, each feeling they are getting full value in return for what they are giving.  Ideally, each feels it is fair.  It’s up to the Dominant to create that feeling and it’s to his benefit to do so, because of the pleasure he gets from being entrusted with caring for the submissive.  The more the Dominant can create that feeling in the submissive, the greater the trust, appreciation and acceptance returned. 

This exponential expansion of the power exchange leads to the feeling of ownership, between the Dom and submissive.  This expansion seems limitless and spirals in ever increasing concentric circles in the best of D/s relationships.  (It’s not all that bad in some of the worst, either.) 

One good comparison is that the relationship is a system of beneficent dictatorship, with the dictator having been elected to the position and subject to being deposed, upon failure to be beneficent. 

If being humiliated is part of the dynamic that enhances the feeling of being cared for by the submissive, then the smart Dominant provides it. (Find the buttons and push them!) 

Understanding the mind of the submissive is of paramount importance in administering the power exchange and learning what makes the submissive respond with entrusting and deepening it is the reward the Dominant works to achieve. 

A large part of enhancing the feeling of being within the protection, within the care, feeling nurtured, cherished, and treasured, is creating the feeling in the submissive of being special to the Dom.  Treating the submissive as an equal, creating a feeling of equal human value or even superior human value is a matter of demonstrating truly deep respect for the submissive.  Furthermore, enhancing the status of the submissive leads to higher esteem of the Dominant, because the greater the submissive who submits to the Dominant, the greater the Dominant must be, to be able to demand such fealty.  (See Anthony and Cleopatra, Petruchio and Katrina, Bill and Hillary(?).)

Anyone who considers D/s to be Superior/inferior doesn’t understand the power exchange involved in D/s. The power exchange could only become S/i, if there were no right to withhold consent.  Notwithstanding all the arguments to the contrary, the submissive can always withhold consent.

Each has their own specialty.  For the Dominant, it’s the ability to cherish, understand and respect the submissive and for the submissive it’s the ability to trust, accept and appreciate the Dominant.  The stronger the power exchange becomes instilled, the better each becomes at their specialty.

One final note:  As part of the Dom's duty to protect the submissive, the Dom should teach the submissive self protection - including protection against the Dominant.  That means teaching that the submissive has a right to a complete half of the power exchange.  In other words, it becomes incumbent on him to imbue and practice fairness.




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 12:07:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

jujubee, sounds as if you want someone to change your mind. That was never My intention. But, if that is what you seek try looking for something you agree with, rather than the other way round.


I don't want someone to change my mind, and I'm not trying to change yours either. This is your topic, Lorenzo, and your relationship with the concept of equality. I've said multiple times that I'm glad what you have works for you, it just doesn't work for me because I don't believe it's equality. And like I said in my last post, I think we should probably agree to disagree because our definitions are different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

But someone loving saying to you, "what's wrong, you've been getting by on frozen dinners instead of those great meals you usually make?" isn't necessarily criticism. It's an observation that your usual behavior has changed and a sincere desire to know why so as to help. And that's a far cry from someone demanding you spend three hours cooking some special dish when you didn't even get out of work till 6:30PM.



I'm not talking about the conversations that everyone has in every relationship about getting stuff done and how to help each other get it done without being unfair - that's obviously what you do in any healthy relationship, regardless of kink. We were talking about Lorenzo reserving the right to "pull rank" if a debate over something came to a standstill. It's not a matter of loving (I'm positive that most Doms are very loving about their approach), it's not a matter of helpful (I'm sure too that the desire is to help), it's just the pure, basic difference in who gets to decide the ultimate result of that situation. If it's not "we BOTH decide" then it doesn't work for me. In the situation you describe, maybe the sub has stopped wanting to cook dinner all the time and wants to share the load. If the Dom gets to say, "no, I'm not going to cook, but we'll rearrange some other things you have to do so that you have more time," that's still a power imbalance, because it's not saying, "ok, I really, really don't like cooking. Is there something else I could do instead that would make you feel better about cooking all the time?" or "ok, how about we split the cooking, and then you split this other thing that I do as well?"

I'm sure that there are many, many 24/7 Doms who understand that compromise is very important. I'm not saying that it's some sort of Dom thing to be unyielding - not at all. I'm just saying that at its absolute base level, there is a difference between having equal say and not having equal say, no matter how fair the person in charge is. You can feel the difference, I promise you. It's that difference that makes a lot of 24/7 subs blissfully happy, and makes me want to escape in the middle of the night.




lovingpet -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 12:17:45 PM)

On this idea of saying something when one observes things falling through the cracks, I have to say that it is more than just noticing some kind of work isn't getting done.  In my crazy universe, if someone notices that I haven't gotten things done or done to the standard I normally like, they automatically want to know why.  That question is not critical.  It is a question of concern.  If I've gone to meals out or microwave dinners, it is probably because I am not feeling well enough to cook a more significant meal.  If the house isn't at least straight and organized, again, I am probably not feeling well.  Observing how much I do and what things are not getting done gives a good read on how much struggle I am getting from my health.  Those in my life for the most part know better than to think if things aren't getting done that I am just being lazy.  I don't do that.  There are other areas where I might be tempted, but the condition of my home and what we eat are not.

Right now, someone would observe that it's at least been a bad couple days.  The floor needs swept and the dishes put away.  I have had delivery or eaten out with the exception of maybe three days in the past week.  They would also see a very small pile of clothing by my bed and very little of mine in the wash.  At that point they'd say it's been pretty severely bad for me lately.  They would be right.  I will probably find a way to get everything back on track today because it's driving me nuts, but I will have to have help.  I don't mind someone asking me about the things that aren't done.  It gives me an open door to say I'm not feeling well and what people can do to help me.  I'm not very good at admitting when I am having a hard time or asking for help, so that is really valuable.

This has been something that's had me a little anxiety ridden about moving to my partner in the spring.  I know there are times when I can do little to nothing.  I sometimes get afraid he will become upset with me or think I am intentionally being lazy and using my condition as an excuse.  He knows me better than that though.  He also understands my condition better than most and knows what to expect.  He chose me anyway.  He doesn't necessarily have to be understanding, but he is.  He doesn't necessarily have to pick up those tasks he expects of me, but he will.  To him, exercise of his position as dominant over me is at least as much about choosing to use it as it is about having it in the first place.  He can demand pretty well whatever he wants.  He is much more interested in whether or not his command will benefit or damage what is his.  He wants what's best for me.  He doesn't care if it means he will have to scrub a toilet on my behalf to make it so.  Maybe I'm just a lucky girl.  Who knows?

lovingpet   




jujubeeMB -> RE: Equality In the D/s Lifestyle (2/17/2010 12:23:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TopChuck
The power exchange dynamic creates D/s balance; not equality.

The submissive always has the power to withhold consent, no matter how deep the level of commitment to the relationship, by the submissive.

Therefore, ultimate power always resides with the submissive.  An argument can be made that the exchange is egalitarian, although the relationship isn't.



You're absolutely right - the submissive always has the power to withhold consent. However, in a lot of agreements between Doms and subs, the withholding of consent is a more dramatic gesture that will certainly lead to a conversation, if not ultimately some major changes in the relationship. Just having the power to end the relationship isn't enough for me. I want the power to say "no" in day to day life without anyone saying, "objection noted. Do it anyway."




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875