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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/16/2010 5:11:24 AM

PeonForHer

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After teaching the same things a few times, however, that confident exterior veneer becomes an internal reality as I realize, "Hey, I'm not doing half bad at this!" In your experience, does the same thing happen in the context of domination, or is the mindset required such that forcing it prevents true confidence from developing?

That reminds me of something. I was trained as a teacher many moons ago and I, like you, was damned terrified of my first class. I thought the kids would eat me alive. But I was told, "No . . . just get a few things right, and they'll treat you the right way. Don't forget - they're kids who are used to being under a teacher's authority. They'll do the job for you."

My (oft-mentioned - sorry) story, pre CM, was one of not believing that dommes existed. It seems that it's rare that dommes bring their equivalent of that story to these boards. Mostly, they seem to have discovered that submales existed pretty soon after they learned that males existed. ;-)

Phew. I'd have been shocked by the nut-grabbing, but I'd soon have ended up snogging Ms Starlett behind the bike shed. *Grin*

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/16/2010 8:39:27 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shallowdeep

To what extent, if any, is confidence integral to your style of dominance?

Have you encountered any struggles with self-doubt as you have explored? Do you recall anything standing out as particularly troublesome?

If you did have issues with confidence, were they resolved with time? Could you share what helped in that process? Mentoring? Reading? Talking with others? Just jumping in and getting your feet wet? An epiphany? Something else?

Have you noticed anything in particular about a partner's actions, attitudes, or reactions that creates a positive experience for you and helps build your confidence in your dominance? Conversely, has there ever been an interaction that rattled your confidence?

Today, confidence is absolutely an integral part of My Dominance. The first year or so, I wouldn't say that it was.

Personally, I went through phases. I wasn't especially a sadist when I first started out. Of course, I didn't feel that I was living up to what I thought a Domme was because of that. Also, I didn't exactly fit into the bitch persona stereotype. There was some confusion in that for Me. Then, when I got My taste for sadism, like many others, I had to go through the same acceptance phase and let go of things like 'nice people don't hurt other people' that is so common.

In My case, it absolutely was a time thing. To the individual questions, I'm going to say yes, yes, yes, and yes. I read every book that I could get My hands on that was non fiction. When it came to topping skills, if I saw someone's work that I liked, I made it a point to learn from them. I didn't go for one Mentor. Whatever particular skill I wanted to acquire, I found the person who did it better than anyone else and I went and learned that one thing from that particular person. I went to every demo that I could manage in My schedule. If there was a 'come up and try' part of a presentation, I was right up front. I took whatever I learned and started practicing at home. I've always been a hands on kind of person and that means that I'm going to experiment. Even now, that's why I always try to include the opportunity for other people to try out anything that I'm teaching.

For topping, I would have to say that the more you do it right, the more confidence that you get. The same goes for the mistakes you've made. Any top who ever tells you that they have never made a mistake is probably full of crap.

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/16/2010 4:20:35 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shallowdeep

Thank you for all the responses.

Some responses, thoughts, and further questions:

Thanks for breaking the ice and linking the other thread, Lady Angelika. It, and this one, may well have been germs for this thread. I thought it might be interesting to discuss the role of confidence (as it relates to dominance) and its development a bit more generally and explicitly – and I finally worked up the confidence to start a thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
It is 100% integral. That said, I don't always expect to have 100% confidence. In other words, without confidence, one cannot pull off dominance properly.

Not 100% confident 100% of the time? I hope the Dominant Review Board lets it slip this time. :)

More seriously, if you aren't quite feeling perfectly sure of yourself, does that affect they way you express your dominance? Do you tone things down or otherwise alter your approach at all? Do you seek anything different in your interaction with a partner? Any additional feedback or reassurance, perhaps?

When I say that I don't expect to have 100% confidence all the time, what I mean is that it is impossible to expect that I will always be 100% on top of my game. We all need down time. When I talk about "pulling off dominance", this has nothing to do with who I am but rather what I can project at any given time. When I feel I need down time, I am being myself and I am listening to my needs. In those times, I probably don't give off that "Domme" vibe as much, but I still am inherently, deep down dominant. If I'm with a partner that knows me well, he probably won't think anything differently of it and will likely be more attentive to my needs. Does that make sense?

quote:

quote:

I do remember the first time I knowingly engaged in BDSM with a young man... I smacked him with a crop whip and he winced. I nervously laughed and actually apologized. But then he looked at me with these sweet little wanton eyes and said, "It hurts but I like it coming from you". I think I will always have that moment etched in my mind like a movie. So then I smacked him harder... His reaction was so delicious and got such a high! By the end, I was so into it that I made him beg me for mercy to stop ;-)

Thanks for sharing this early experience; I think it sheds interesting light on the issue. Would you mind elaborating a bit on what his 'delicious' reaction was that made it such a positive and memorable experience for you? Was there anything in particular? Just a general attitude? I know this next question is rather speculative, but how do you think it would have affected you if his reaction to that nervous first smack had been different – something more along the lines of "I don't know about this anymore. I think we should stop." Would something like that have messed with your confidence at that stage of exploration?

His delicious reaction was a mixture of desire and uncertainty. He was the one who seduced me into hurting him by showing me a crop whip he had. It was like he was daring me, trying to see where I could go, like he saw this in me, in my personality. He was giving me a green light even though he himself was not very experienced in this. Bottom line is that he really let me know that it was ok for me to desire this and he was there for me to explore this with. It is a feeling that I really do have a hard time putting into words.

Regarding your speculative question, I know it would have been a very different experience for me if he had not been so awesome. But I'm sure that eventually I would have tried again at some point. I don't tend to give up on the first try ;-)

quote:

Akasha and Master Fire both brought up the issue of there being a difference between merely projecting an external 'look' of confidence versus truly possessing an internal self-confidence. I'm curious what opinions there are on how well 'faking' external confidence can work to develop authentic confidence.

This is true. This reminds me of my first client meeting as a junior consultant. I had to go alone and when I got to the client's there were 15 people at the meeting table divided into 3 cliques who all had their own agenda. The first thing I was told by a grey haired man was "I don't even know why you are here, I guess management doesn't trust us to do this by ourselves so they had to bring in some whiz kid". That is when I took a deep breath and realised that I could never let them see me sweat. Fast forward, it ended up being one of my successful projects. But yeah, I faked it a bit first to get through it. But that isn't false confidence really, because we have this survival instinct in us that holds us up while be build up what we need.

I think in BDSM, what we often mean by the external look, is that a leather patent cat suit and 5" heels do not make the Domme. The confidence and instinct to be a good domme comes from within and with experience.

quote:

Both MsStarlett and Akasha stressed the value in starting slowly – a view I assume most here would share?

Well only if to not get in over your head. I know of boys who were with women who pretented to know what they were doing because they were afraid of not being dominant enough, and the boys got physically hurt. That is irresponsible.

When I first started playing, I had a great way of masking my innexperience by telling boys that they had to tell me their fantasies, and then I would make up a plan for them to earn it. So they were coming up with the ideas for me and I had plenty of time to research how to do it. The boys just thought I was terribly strong willpower and worked very hard at earning their play time. Win-win situation ;-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/16/2010 4:34:31 PM >

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/16/2010 4:29:23 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Well that is a hard distinction to make as I was pretty much always dominating my partners.

It seems to have happened pretty gradually. The comment goes, so often, something like 'I always knew I was dominant before I even knew what the word meant; I tied boys up when I was a kid, so I did the same when I grew up with partners, and it naturally became part of our sex life too'. Ms Starlett's goolie-grabbing technique is a fine example ;-)

Heh. No such gradual 'growing into it' for myself and, I suspect, a lot of submales. As PoliteSub said, you often need an extra dose of confidence if you're a submale because the chances are you'll grow up feeling like 'less than a real male'. Then, on top of that, you'll need super-confidence in all matters dating-related because you're more awestruck by females than your vanilla male counterpart. You watch other males getting together with girls as a teen and think, "Hell, they find it so easy to be with girls. They even make friends with them." The 'admiring from afar' stage lasted a long, long time for me and it was a hard slog to begin to interact with them as though they were any less than demi-goddesses. (Can any of us even imagine grabbing a girl's tits the way Ms S grabbed boys' balls? I doubt it!) Hell, putting these things together: it's a wonder that it can happen at all!

God, though. The times I've dreamt, recently, of what I'd have felt if I'd found the secret writings of one-time vanilla girlfriends - and that said writings where full of femdom fantasies. I'd have put some bloody [gropes for the right superlative] humungous effort into helping her develop any confidence she required . . .

You know Peon, I really want to thank you for writing that part. I have never heard this point of view expressed in such a way before. You actually made me stop and think about the way that I approach things.

I always believed that if a guy was really that into me, he would find a way of over coming his shyness to be with me. There is a very old fashioned part of me that wants to be pursued rather than be the pursuer.

Yes I can be a huntress, but when I've been in that head space, I was rather looking for fun. Something long lasting had to start with the man pursuing me. I know, antiquated as hell, but honestly, it's deeply engrained in me.

But you are really making me think now...

- LA

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/16/2010 10:42:46 PM

shallowdeep

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Thank you for the answers about your development process Lady Pact. It's nice to know you now enjoy being one of the resources you sought out as you began exploring. I'm sure many have benefited from the sharing of your accumulated experience here and in more 'hands on' environments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
In those times, I probably don't give off that "Domme" vibe as much, but I still am inherently, deep down dominant. If I'm with a partner that knows me well, he probably won't think anything differently of it and will likely be more attentive to my needs. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. Thanks for the elaboration on this and your early experience.

quote:

When I first started playing, I had a great way of masking my inexperience by telling boys that they had to tell me their fantasies…

I find this interesting, so I hope you won't mind one more question: Did you feel more comfortable and confident masking your relative inexperience than you would have if you had taken an approach like Ms Starlett and been very upfront with your partners about the fact you were still learning? Would the latter approach not have lent itself to developing the type of dominance you sought? I guess that's technically two more questions…

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 4:51:19 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shallowdeep

quote:

When I first started playing, I had a great way of masking my inexperience by telling boys that they had to tell me their fantasies…

I find this interesting, so I hope you won't mind one more question: Did you feel more comfortable and confident masking your relative inexperience than you would have if you had taken an approach like Ms Starlett and been very upfront with your partners about the fact you were still learning? Would the latter approach not have lent itself to developing the type of dominance you sought? I guess that's technically two more questions…

I was upfront with them about the fact that I was still learning. But by those standards, I'm still learning today and hope to be for the rest of my life. I definitely did not put on airs like I was more experienced than I was nor was I engaging in activities blindly. I did not jump into any kind of play that I wasn't ready for and I was honest about stuff that I wasn't comfortable doing. My approach afforded me the time to reflect on certain things and research others all while staying in control.

I guess the way to explain it would be that if a boy that I was with would say something like "I dream of you doing X to me", instead of saying: "I've never done X before", I'd say: "Oh really, what is it about X that turns you on. How does your idea of X play in you mind, etc" and then we'd set up a plan for them to earn it. This afforded me the time to come up with a way of engaging in X on my terms and align it with my desires.

Even today, if I have done X a hundred times, if it comes up as a request from a boy, I might treat it the same way as a) his way of seeing X might be different, b) his way of reacting to X might be different and c) it is quite hot to make them earn something they crave. I've actually had boys say to me something along the lines of "Why are you asking so many questions, have you not done this before?" to which now I honestly reply to them that I had actually over the years developed quite a bit of experience with the activity in question but that since I had never done it with them, it is important to discuss it. Once they see it that way, the really appreciate the approach.

I had a very good idea of the type of dominance I sought and this approach lent itself very well to it. It promoted communication around desires and activities and permitted me to take charge of the situation. I think all in all not a bad approach.

- LA

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 12:01:39 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You know Peon, I really want to thank you for writing that part. I have never heard this point of view expressed in such a way before. You actually made me stop and think about the way that I approach things.

I always believed that if a guy was really that into me, he would find a way of over coming his shyness to be with me. There is a very old fashioned part of me that wants to be pursued rather than be the pursuer.

Yes I can be a huntress, but when I've been in that head space, I was rather looking for fun. Something long lasting had to start with the man pursuing me. I know, antiquated as hell, but honestly, it's deeply engrained in me.

But you are really making me think now...

- LA

LA, there are a submales' deeper feelings about himself and regarding the way he sees women - and then there's the knowledge of how things generally work between women and men in the world of today. Submales will usually be aware that men are expected to do the pursuing and only in fantasy is it the other way around. (Femdom/malesub is emphatically not about complete role-reversal, as one rapidly discovers on joining CM, for instance ;-)).

The long and short of it is that a femdom doesn't have to give up her desire to be pursued. All I'm saying is that it might, perhaps, be harder for a submale to achieve success at that traditional pursuer's role than it would be for his vanilla-male counterpart.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/17/2010 12:07:37 PM >

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 3:08:13 PM

MsMillgrove

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I equate confidence with courage. Whatever the situation, I know that I can quell the fear inside and stand up and do what's needed. No matter what. Even if if comes down to saying to a partner, "whew... I am confused here, I am not sure what to do." That takes courage or confidence, to admit to weakness or indecision and ask for help.

Confidence in ability is only achieved through education and practice, so I accept that I might feel anxious or nervous when learning new skills.
We do have choices in what we allow others to inflict on us--if a sub seeks to undermine me, then he or she isn't the right match. I dont' chose
potential subs who have no experience anymore because I recognize that I'm no longer sweetly patient as I once was.

Very much appreciate the care and thought others put into answering these questions, esp insightful to learn more about how it feels to grow up as a male submissive, I'd never considered some of those hurdles in the early years.

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 3:11:15 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

I equate confidence with courage. Whatever the situation, I know that I can quell the fear inside and stand up and do what's needed.

I totally agree with this!!

Confidence is bred of courage. Courage is not the absence of fear, but moving forward in spite of the fear.

Have the courage to accomplish that which scares you, and the confidence will appear.

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 5:58:10 PM

Andalusite

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Hmm, I didn't feel at all fearful about getting back into topping/domination, but I did feel a bit rusty after getting out of a relationship as a submissive for 3 years. The first time I mentioned that I was thinking of getting back into it, and looking for a female playpartner, I found one. She was patient when I accidentally "wrapped" with the flogger once or twice while I got back into the swing of things. We also attended a couple of classes and arranged an informal needleplay workshop. I'd tried it once before, but it had been a while, so I definitely wanted someone experienced to give me some pointers first.

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RE: Developing Confidence - 2/17/2010 6:20:13 PM

velt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett

Back in College, I had this lovely game I called "Goochie!" I would walk up to a young man that I found attractive, stand very close to him to talk about very common subjects. If I got the correct 'vibe' off him... ie, he didn't move away from me, his eyes dilated a bit, his breathing changed... I would look him straight in the eye, grab him by the balls, squeeze and say "Goochie!" It was delightful to watch his eyes bulge. Was this just a silly, sexual / control game? Or my first, unwitting act of sadism?

Sounds more like repeated premeditated criminal behavior than anything else. No more a game than it would be for a man to make a hobby of going around grabbing women he got a 'vibe' off of.

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