quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yes, all agreed, and we were fucking around in china anyways since about what 1842 or so? the commodore perry shit or so?

all wars are wars of agression, huntie, I have no knowledge of wars of kindness.

And certainly, americas vital interests as the politicians saw it were at the forefront, so:

War is a mere continuation of politics by other means as Clauswitz said, and;
War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin. as sun tzu said, and in the case of WW2 I think some of the machinations justified as a matter of survival. I understand your vehemenent disdain for this and why, but my take is that had you been born 20-25 or so years earlier, you would have upped for WW2 somewhere as a necessity.

Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Perry went to Japan with the "Great White Fleet"....and opened up her borders at the point of his guns.A point for Thompson's stance to be sure....

Well duhhh

but on a sliding scale of morality he seems to miss the point.

"Sliding scale of morality" whadya smokin'... glue?
Is someone less dead because a captalist impearlist bullet killed him rather than a Nazi impearlist bullet?
Dead is dead


There are no white nights....no countries hands are clean...there are no virginal white nation states.But there are without a doubt good and bad actors on the worlds stage...

Good and bad is a moral concept. We are discussing the history of our country and whether it has been impearlistic in it's foriegn policy ie: wars of aggression. I have contended that it has and you,in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, have steadfastly maintained that it has not while at the same time justifying that impearlism with claims of "manifest destiny" (as in god said so.)

and after all is said and done the United States has done far more good than evil.

That is your opinion and should you choose you might want to start a thread about whether that statement is valid or not. What we are discussing in this thread is the global military dominance of the U.S. in general and specifically how that dominance has been used.


In his last post Thompson complained of being a "poorly used tool"...again I would disagree with him and assert,as evidenced by America's position astride the world,she as a nation state seems to have used her tools wisely...

If you think that using a micrometer for a C clamp is a wise use of ones tools then I can see your point

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Perry went to Japan with the "Great White Fleet"....and opened up her borders at the point of his guns.A point for Thompson's stance to be sure....

Well duhhh
I would ask just what the fuck is wrong with you....but that seems senseless.There seemed to be some confusion over whether Perry went to China or Japan...all I was doing was trying to clear that up.

but on a sliding scale of morality he seems to miss the point.

"Sliding scale of morality" whadya smokin'... glue?
Is someone less dead because a captalist impearlist bullet killed him rather than a Nazi impearlist bullet?
Dead is dead
Dead is indeed dead....and obtuse is obtuse.Glad that is cleared up(by the way one huffs glue,I would suggest weed for smoking but it appears enough damage has been done to you already)
It appears you see no moral distinction between using ones guns to liberate Europe or on the other hand using them to herd innocents into gas chambers.Your continued comparison of American imperialism to Nazi thuggery is an insult to all who fought and died fighting that particular tyranical gov't.
There are no white nights....no countries hands are clean...there are no virginal white nation states.But there are without a doubt good and bad actors on the worlds stage...

Good and bad is a moral concept. We are discussing the history of our country and whether it has been impearlistic in it's foriegn policy ie: wars of aggression. I have contended that it has and you,in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, have steadfastly maintained that it has not while at the same time justifying that impearlism with claims of "manifest destiny" (as in god said so.)
History discussed without considering morality is nothing more than dates,places and events...a rather narrow perspective.It occurs to me that taking the narrow veiw of things must be rather comforting to you...no need to clutter things up with extreneous information.

and after all is said and done the United States has done far more good than evil.

That is your opinion and should you choose you might want to start a thread about whether that statement is valid or not. What we are discussing in this thread is the global military dominance of the U.S. in general and specifically how that dominance has been used.
How can one discuss "how that dominance has been used" without taking into account morality.Just to clue you in here this thread is discussing whether or not America has the "right" to object/ and or act to stop Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability.....and that my friend is a moral question.Whether or not we can do something about it is a technology/weapons capability question.

In his last post Thompson complained of being a "poorly used tool"...again I would disagree with him and assert,as evidenced by America's position astride the world,she as a nation state seems to have used her tools wisely...

If you think that using a micrometer for a C clamp is a wise use of ones tools then I can see your point
You lost me here.....shit you lost me a shitload of post's ago

quote:

It appears you see no moral distinction between using ones guns to liberate Europe or on the other hand using them to herd innocents into gas chambers.Your continued comparison of American imperialism to Nazi thuggery is an insult to all who fought and died fighting that particular tyranical gov't.

quote:

perhaps than you will realise history is much more than facts and dates.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Perry went to Japan with the "Great White Fleet"....and opened up her borders at the point of his guns.A point for Thompson's stance to be sure....but on a sliding scale of morality he seems to miss the point.There are no white nights....no countries hands are clean...there are no virginal white nation states.But there are without a doubt good and bad actors on the worlds stage...and after all is said and done the United States has done far more good than evil.
In his last post Thompson complained of being a "poorly used tool"...again I would disagree with him and assert,as evidenced by America's position astride the world,she as a nation state seems to have used her tools wisely...

quote:

Put up against Charlemagne I would say we have gathered our properties by far less bloody methods. And used our influence more than the sword to get what we wanted. Other than a few dictators here and there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Put up against Charlemagne I would say we have gathered our properties by far less bloody methods. And used our influence more than the sword to get what we wanted. Other than a few dictators here and there.

Well that certainly changes everything doesn't it.
We affected empire with such dignity and class that it hardly clasifies as impearlism.
Not in my world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Didn't Alaska volunteer rather than being coerced? I'm pretty sure Hawaii wasn't taken violently either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

For some inexplicable reason the phrase "one must break some eggs to make an omelette " keeps going thru my head..

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Nah,no such point was made and no such credibility issues exist....all that was established by my last post was that one needs to crack some eggs if one intends to eat an omelette.
Nothing more.....nothing less. :)