Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:21:30 PM)



Obama pledges $8 billion for nuclear power plant
By Jim Tankersley and Michael Muskal
February 16, 2010 | 4:01 p.m.
LA Times

Reporting from Los Angeles and Washington - Seeking common ground with Republicans on energy and climate issues, President Obama on Tuesday pledged $8 billion in loan guarantees needed to build the first U.S. nuclear power plant in nearly three decades.

The move, along with a tripling of nuclear loan guarantees in the president's budget, represents a new federal commitment to the low-carbon-emitting, but highly controversial, nuclear power sector long championed by the GOP.

...

Reporting from Los Angeles and Washington - Seeking common ground with Republicans on energy and climate issues, President Obama on Tuesday pledged $8 billion in loan guarantees needed to build the first U.S. nuclear power plant in nearly three decades.

The move, along with a tripling of nuclear loan guarantees in the president's budget, represents a new federal commitment to the low-carbon-emitting, but highly controversial, nuclear power sector long championed by the GOP.

Industry groups and Republican leaders praised the announcement, which has been expected for months, but some environmentalists and free-market think tanks protested.

Speaking at a training center at the Lanham, Md., headquarters of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 26, Obama spoke favorably of nuclear power as part of a mix of energy alternatives to oil.

"In order to truly harness our potential in clean energy, we'll have to do more," Obama said. "In the near term, as we transition to cleaner energy sources, we'll have to make tough decisions about opening new offshore areas for oil and gas development. We'll need to make continued investments in advanced biofuels and clean coal technologies, even as we build greater capacity in renewables like wind and solar.

"And we'll have to build a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in America," he said.

Kudos, Mr President.

Firm




CelticNightmare -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:25:16 PM)

Agreed. The sooner we can get these heavily polluting coal fired plants replaced-the better. Especially since they contribute to creating acid rain.




Thadius -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:33:49 PM)

I saw something on this earlier, and my first thought was "it's about time". As I have sat back and thought about this today, I became a bit cynical. In 2007, Obama all but said he was completely against nuclear power. His policies (impending EPA regulations) that would effect "clean coal" have been just the opposite, just ask a few Dems from places that rely on the coal industry for their income.

The only thing I can figure is this is a smoke and mirrors olive branch, to try and get Cap and Trade moving again in the Senate.

I won't go into the reality of getting nuclear power plants built, much less the hoops that will have to be jumped through to get them online. Oh yeah, and everybody's favorite achronym NIMBY.




servantforuse -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:36:49 PM)

I'll believe it when I see it. For Obama to like it, it will have to have a windmill on top of it..




DarkSteven -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:44:58 PM)

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.




DomKen -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 5:59:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.

Re enriching spent fuel isn't that helpful and does nothing for most of the high level waste. While you can centrifuge out uranium that has yet to split that still leaves all the fission end products that aren't yet stable but half half lifes long enough that they are not useful for maintaining a reaction. That material, most of each spent fuel rod, must still be disposed of safely which we have establish how we're going to do it.

Before a single plant gets started Yucca mountain should be opened or another nuclear waste receiver should be up and running.




TheHeretic -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:00:10 PM)

I have to share in Thadius' skepticism, Firm.  It isn't a lack of government loan guarantees that have stopped our construction of these plants, but the regulation and endless lawsuits.  If President Obama wants to show some real support, he would be using his office to help overcome those hurdles.  As it is, I see nothing but a wasteful $8 billion jobs programs for lawyers.  Hell, at this point, $8,000,000,000 is easy money to throw on an empty talking point gesture.

There is no need for him to pull out the wallet for this.  Instead, take a pen out of his pocket and sign an exceutive order placing all review under the control of a single federal agency, and waiving the EIRs. 




Sanity -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:07:22 PM)


Right. Obama's opposition to opening Yucca Mountain as a permenant disposal solution stands in direct contradiction with his stated new found love for nuclear.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.

Re enriching spent fuel isn't that helpful and does nothing for most of the high level waste. While you can centrifuge out uranium that has yet to split that still leaves all the fission end products that aren't yet stable but half half lifes long enough that they are not useful for maintaining a reaction. That material, most of each spent fuel rod, must still be disposed of safely which we have establish how we're going to do it.

Before a single plant gets started Yucca mountain should be opened or another nuclear waste receiver should be up and running.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:09:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Right. Obama's opposition to opening Yucca Mountain as a permenant disposal solution stands in direct contradiction with his stated new found love for nuclear.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.

Re enriching spent fuel isn't that helpful and does nothing for most of the high level waste. While you can centrifuge out uranium that has yet to split that still leaves all the fission end products that aren't yet stable but half half lifes long enough that they are not useful for maintaining a reaction. That material, most of each spent fuel rod, must still be disposed of safely which we have establish how we're going to do it.

Before a single plant gets started Yucca mountain should be opened or another nuclear waste receiver should be up and running.



Is Yucca Mountain in McCain territory?  [:D]

Firm




Thadius -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:09:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.

Re enriching spent fuel isn't that helpful and does nothing for most of the high level waste. While you can centrifuge out uranium that has yet to split that still leaves all the fission end products that aren't yet stable but half half lifes long enough that they are not useful for maintaining a reaction. That material, most of each spent fuel rod, must still be disposed of safely which we have establish how we're going to do it.

Before a single plant gets started Yucca mountain should be opened or another nuclear waste receiver should be up and running.

Indeed. Which is another reason I am skeptical, the current administration's moves on Yucca, would suggest it isn't a reality. Perhaps, we can start putting this material up on the moon (partially tongue in cheek)?




DomKen -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:22:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I just wish that he also changed our ridiculous nuclear waste policy so that, instead of binning up nuke waste, we reenriched and reused it.  Recycling at its best - reduces costs and reduces waste.

Re enriching spent fuel isn't that helpful and does nothing for most of the high level waste. While you can centrifuge out uranium that has yet to split that still leaves all the fission end products that aren't yet stable but half half lifes long enough that they are not useful for maintaining a reaction. That material, most of each spent fuel rod, must still be disposed of safely which we have establish how we're going to do it.

Before a single plant gets started Yucca mountain should be opened or another nuclear waste receiver should be up and running.

Indeed. Which is another reason I am skeptical, the current administration's moves on Yucca, would suggest it isn't a reality. Perhaps, we can start putting this material up on the moon (partially tongue in cheek)?

Who cares about the Obama administration's moves on Yucca. What about the Nevada state government and the site's neighbor's opposition?

If you're unaware the site was built over the opposition of the state of Nevada and there are numerous lawsuits aimed at keeping the site from ever opening.

The Obama budget zeroing out the site is good fiscal policy since it is quite clear that the site is never going to open so why should our taxes keep going in to it? How is it that the administration doing something republicans claim they want, reducing wasteful federal spending, but teh conservatives are still bitching? Hypocrisy much?




Thadius -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 6:29:05 PM)

Ken,

I am just pointing out that there are many reasons to be skeptical of this great revelation, Yucca just being one such example. I honestly don't think we are ever going to see these plants online, and have doubts about whether they will be built or not. We will see the exact same opposition to any other site declared as the storage facility for the waste. Unlimited lawsuits and objections will be the undoing of what could help the nation out greatly in the future. It is probably the biggest thing I admire about France.

In terms of Yucca, I am actually in agreement with you about the fiscal side of it, and on the state's right side of it.




TheHeretic -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 9:15:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Is Yucca Mountain in McCain territory? 




Reid, actually.  I guess President Obama figured his Vegas cracks hadn't already cost Nevada enough jobs...




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/16/2010 9:40:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Is Yucca Mountain in McCain territory? 




Reid, actually.  I guess President Obama figured his Vegas cracks hadn't already cost Nevada enough jobs...


The Vegas irrelevancy aside, it's Reid who's the problem here. Cheaper and quicker to wait for the old fossil to die or retire than start all over on finding a new site.




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:10:32 AM)

I think it's a smart move on Obama's part politically.  Throw the GOP a bone on something they want that the public doesn't want, thus showing that the GOP is out of step with the rest of the country.

I'll echo Ken's comments on cleaning up fuel.  It's easy to write, but in practice the stuff is a nightmare to handle and fries the instruments that you'd like to use to characterize it.

I will also point out that the economics of a nuclear plant only make sense when the taxpayer has to pick up the burden of the waste- which is what's done now.  Nukes are an expensive, slow, and lousy match to existing and future needs.  Nuke plants don't throttle well- the reason that nuke plants have become cheaper to operate in the past decades is because the operators discovered that they need less down time than originally planned.  Building a nuke plant is a slow process- takes 8-10 years at best- conceivably longer.  Furthermore, nukes only work well for baseload power.  However, as manufacturing plays a smaller role in electricity demands and residential/offices make up a larger percentage- the need for baseload power compared to peak power diminishes.  This is why solar, even though 3x higher cost/watt can make economic sense- it ties in very well with peak demand.

Alternatives to nuclear plants- Please spare me the red herring of unproven technology....

Wind/solar coupled with better storage and delivery technology. 

It's easy to reduce our generating capacity needs by 25%- all we have to do is go to cable that has 25% fewer losses- already on the market- see Composite Technology Corporation.  It costs 2x conventional cable, but savings in generation easily make up the cost difference.  Already proven technology- and faster to install than building a nuke plant.

Wind is already economical and is a resource that can be exploited with little ill effect- and no long term clean up issues.  The problem with wind is lack of storage capacity for when it doesn't blow.

Two storage capacities coming up to speed quickly- (pun intended)- flywheel (see Beacon Power) and supercapacitor/ultracapacitor.  Although supercapacitor prices have been prohibitive, as the technology has been developed for hybrid autos, the cost of supercaps has fallen around 5x recently and it looks like the prices will continue to fall.  This makes supercap construction on a larger basis more  interesting.  Supercaps have long cycle lifes- measured in the millions, and can deliver power effectively instantaneously.  They're already being used for wind turbine pitch control.

In short- Obama throwing the Republicans a bone on an obsolete dinosaur technology may show that he's crazy like a fox....


Sam




mnottertail -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:12:55 AM)

I hear you, but no smart political move with or without bone. Obama has pro-nuked for a long time, and his national science advisor is pro-nuke (and thats why he picked him)




kittinSol -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:22:13 AM)

Since we're on the subject, how come America is so retarded when it comes to nuclear energy?




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:24:20 AM)

Actually, I think he picked Steven Chu because he was a sharp guy (Nobel Laureate- never met a dumb one of those yet, although some are wacko.) and a good administrator.  After hearing Chu speak a couple of years ago at an MRS meeting on global climate change, my takeaway is that Chu is loyal and following the party line, even at the cost of his own reputation.  I know very few scientists who can discuss "clean coal" without either apoplexy or gales of laughter.  He might be pro-nuke, but technology keeps changing- supercaps 5 years ago weren't really on the horizon since the storage rates were too low and they were too expensive.  Nuke technology on the other hand, moves, very, very slowly since the industry is so secretive.  They have to be- the waste issue still hasn't been solved and nobody's close after decades of study and billions of dollars.


Sam




mnottertail -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:25:17 AM)

Oh, the not in my back yard, the distances and risks with moving the waste, and the fact that even for a nuclear waste facility, we are going to go with the lowest bidder, and cut corners, same with our maintenance of the existing sites, we take profit, not husband our shit, we are fucking CAPITALIST!!!!!!!


Ron




mnottertail -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/17/2010 6:28:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Actually, I think he picked Steven Chu because he was a sharp guy (Nobel Laureate- never met a dumb one of those yet, although some are wacko.) and a good administrator.  After hearing Chu speak a couple of years ago at an MRS meeting on global climate change, my takeaway is that Chu is loyal and following the party line, even at the cost of his own reputation.  I know very few scientists who can discuss "clean coal" without either apoplexy or gales of laughter.  He might be pro-nuke, but technology keeps changing- supercaps 5 years ago weren't really on the horizon since the storage rates were too low and they were too expensive.  Nuke technology on the other hand, moves, very, very slowly since the industry is so secretive.  They have to be- the waste issue still hasn't been solved and nobody's close after decades of study and billions of dollars.


Sam




Oh, I don't know, clean coal is not today, but by example there is a test plant in Germany doing pretty well, and I could see a plasma furnace for coal that would go a long way towards, and clean coal is not impossible, but it is in our future, cause thats whats on the cart, we just need to get people actually working on the hows whys stuff.

Ron




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