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Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 9:53:26 PM   
Brain


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It would appear the stimulus bill has been a success despite embellishments to the contrary.


Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success

Let’ s say this bill had started spending money within a matter of weeks and had rapidly helped the economy. Let’ s also imagine it was large enough to have had a huge impact on jobs — employing something like two million people who would otherwise be unemployed right now.

If that had happened, what would the economy look like today?
Well, it would look almost exactly as it does now. Because those nice descriptions of the stimulus that I just gave aren’t hypothetical. They are descriptions of the actual bill.

Just look at the outside evaluations of the stimulus. Perhaps the best-known economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers and Moody�s Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs. The Congressional Budget Office, an independent agency, considers these estimates to be conservative.

Yet I’m guessing you don’t think of the stimulus bill as a big success. You’ve read columns (by me, for example) complaining that it should have spent money more quickly. Or you’ve heard about the phantom ZIP code scandal: the fact that a government Web site mistakenly reported money being spent in nonexistent ZIP codes.

And many of the criticisms are valid. The program has had its flaws. But the attention they have received is wildly disproportionate to their importance. To hark back to another big government program, it’s almost as if the lasting image of the lunar space program was Apollo 6, an unmanned 1968 mission that had engine problems, and not Apollo 11, the moon landing.

The reasons for the stimulus’s middling popularity aren’t a mystery. The unemployment rate remains near 10 percent, and many families are struggling. Saying that things could have been even worse doesn’t exactly inspire. Liberals don’t like the stimulus because they wish it were bigger. Republicans don’t like it because it’s a Democratic program. The Obama administration hurt the bill’s popularity by making too rosy an economic forecast upon taking office.

Moreover, the introduction of the most visible parts of the program — spending on roads, buildings and the like — has been a bit sluggish. Aid to states, unemployment benefits and some tax provisions have been more successful and account for far more of the bill. But their successes are not obvious.

Even if the conventional wisdom is understandable, however, it has consequences. Because the economy is still a long way from being healthy, members of Congress are now debating another, smaller stimulus bill. (They’re calling it a “jobs bill,” seeing stimulus as a dirty word.) The logical thing to do would be to examine what worked and what didn’t in last year’s bill.

But that’s not what is happening. Instead, the debate is largely disconnected from the huge stimulus experiment we just ran. Why? As Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts, the newest member of Congress, said, in a nice summary of the misperceptions, the stimulus might have saved some jobs, but it �didn�t create one new job.�

The case against the stimulus revolves around the idea that the economy would be no worse off without it. As a Wall Street Journal opinion piece put it last year, “The resilience of the private sector following the fall 2008 panic — not the fiscal stimulus program — deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the impressive growth improvement.” In a touch of unintended irony, two of article�s three authors were listed as working at a research institution named for Herbert Hoover.

Of course, no one can be certain about what would have happened in an alternate universe without a $787 billion stimulus. But there are two main reasons to think the hard-core skeptics are misguided — above and beyond those complicated, independent economic analyses.

The first is the basic narrative that the data offer. Pick just about any area of the economy and you come across the stimulus bill’s footprints.

In the early months of last year, spending by state and local governments was falling rapidly, as was tax revenue. In the spring, tax revenue continued to drop, yet spending jumped — during the very time when state and local officials were finding out roughly how much stimulus money they would be receiving. This is the money that has kept teachers, police officers, health care workers and firefighters employed.

Then there is corporate spending. It surged in the final months of last year. Mark Zandi of Economy.com (who has advised the McCain campaign and Congressional Democrats) says that the Dec. 31 expiration of a tax credit for corporate investment, which was part of the stimulus, is a big reason.

The story isn’t quite as clear-cut with consumer spending, as skeptics note. Its sharp plunge stopped before President Obama signed the stimulus into law exactly one year ago. But the billions of dollars in tax cuts, food stamps and jobless benefits in the stimulus have still made a difference. Since February, aggregate wages and salaries have fallen, while consumer spending has risen. The difference between the two — some $100 billion — has essentially come from stimulus checks.

The second argument in the bill’s favor is the history of financial crises. They have wreaked terrible damage on economies. Indeed, the damage tended to be even worse than what we have suffered.

Around the world over the last century, the typical financial crisis caused the jobless rate to rise for almost five years, according to work by the economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff.

On that timeline, our rate would still be rising in early 2012. Even that may be optimistic, given that the recent crisis was so bad. As Ben Bernanke, Henry Paulson (Republicans both) and many others warned in 2008, this recession had the potential to become a depression.

Yet the jobless rate is now expected to begin falling consistently by the end of this year.

For that, the stimulus package, flaws and all, deserves a big heaping of credit. “It prevented things from getting much worse than they otherwise would have been,” Nariman Behravesh, Global Insight’s chief economist, says. “I think everyone would have to acknowledge that’s a good thing.”

So what now?

The last year has shown — just as economists have long said — that aid to states and cities may be the single most effective form of stimulus. Unlike road- or bridge-building, it can happen in a matter of weeks. And unlike tax cuts, state and local aid never languishes in a household’s savings account.

The ideal follow-up stimulus would start with that aid. It would then add on extended jobless benefits, which also tend to be spent, as well as tax credits carefully drafted to get businesses to hire and households to spend, like the cash-for-clunkers program.
By this yardstick, the $154 billion bill that the House passed in December is decent. It includes $27 billion in state and local aid, $79 billion for jobless benefits and other safety nets, and $48 billion in infrastructure spending.


The smaller bills being considered by the Senate are worse. They may end up with no state aid at all, and their tax credits sound better — with promises to help the long-term unemployed and small businesses — than they are. “The economic impact of the Senate bill, at this point, is starting to look very small,” Mr. Behravesh says.

Given what people have been saying about a successful stimulus bill, just imagine what they’ll say about one that doesn’t accomplish much.

E-mail: [email protected]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/business/economy/17leonhardt.html


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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 10:05:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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"Jobs saved or created" is an unmeasurable, untestable number.

[/thread]

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 10:11:38 PM   
DarkSteven


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Okay.  Let's assume the numbers are legit.  Then we spent $787 bil to create about 2 million jobs.We're spending over $350K per job!

This is insanity.


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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 10:13:50 PM   
jlf1961


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The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 10:23:27 PM   
tazzygirl


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Agreed. These are the numbers i found

Spent $179 billion
In Process $154 billion
Left to Spend $247 billion
Tax Cuts Issued $93 billion
Tax Cuts $119 billion

http://www.propublica.org/ion/stimulus

And yet, in my mind, these dont add up either.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 10:53:12 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.


As Aaron Shock said, the bill was passed, despite his vote against it. The tab will be paid in part by his district's members, their kids and their grandkids. If the money isnt spent in his district it will be spent somewhere else. To do anything but represent his district for a share of it would be malfeasance.

How many Democrats who voted against the Bush tax cuts gave them back?

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:00:17 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.


As Aaron Shock said, the bill was passed, despite his vote against it. The tab will be paid in part by his district's members, their kids and their grandkids. If the money isnt spent in his district it will be spent somewhere else. To do anything but represent his district for a share of it would be malfeasance.

How many Democrats who voted against the Bush tax cuts gave them back?



To claim on camera that the stimulus bill is not working, will not work, does nothing to create jobs and then turn around and claim that the bill will create jobs in their districts, that it is working is hypocritical.

You cant be for and against something at the same time.

You have to chose one side of the argument or the other. And to try and justify that stand is makes the person look stupid.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:07:30 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


To claim on camera that the stimulus bill is not working, will not work, does nothing to create jobs and then turn around and claim that the bill will create jobs in their districts, that it is working is hypocritical.



Is that the claim? Or is the claim that they got the money for their districts and some of it was spent on jobs...there is a difference. DUCY?

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:11:23 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Okay.  Let's assume the numbers are legit.  Then we spent $787 bil to create about 2 million jobs.We're spending over $350K per job!

This is insanity.



Don't forget about the 2.7 Million jobs that have been lost since last Feb.

According to a memo from the OMB on Dec 18, 2009 any job that was funded with stimulus money is to be counted in the jobs saved or created category.
quote:

Click here for memo
In addition, recipients will no longer be required to make a subjective judgment on whether jobs were created or retained as a result of the Recovery Act. Instead, recipients will more easily and objectively report on jobs funded with Recovery Act dollars. This update aligns with GAO’s recommendation to “[make] more explicit that ‘jobs created or retained’ are to be reported as hours worked and paid for with Recovery Act funds.”

This change was made in response to a GAO report to congress in Nov titled "RECOVERY ACT
Recipient Reported Jobs Data Provide Some Insight into Use of Recovery Act Funding, but Data Quality and Reporting Issues Need Attention".
Remember all of the hoopla around that time asking wtf a "saved or created job" was?

I think the following quote sums up the changes pretty accurately.
quote:


“the new guidance counts every jobs that is funded using stimulus money – even if it existed before the Recovery Act, and was not in any danger of being eliminated – as ‘created or saved.’ This definition ignores the plain meanings of the words ‘created’ and ‘saved’ and makes Recovery.gov’s ‘ ‘JOBS CREATED/SAVED’ label a falsehood, further eroding the confidence of the American people in their government.”
~Rep. Issa, Ranking member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.


Which means that the administration and others talking up the stimulus bill by talking about "Jobs saved or created" have been deliberately misleading the public about what those numbers reflect.

Hell even a CBS poll last week shows that only 6% of those polled believe that the stimulus bill has created jobs. That is just slightly higher than the margin of error.

I will save the rest of my comments for another post, to save you all from a wall of text.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:15:34 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

Sure they are asking for the money, as it will help the local areas and states make ends meet; paying for the unfunded mandates that they helped impose on their own states, with the help of Dems.

I would normally see this as hypocritical, but they aren't claiming the money is going to create jobs. I guess it is a bit though when it comes to the out of control spending issues.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:21:39 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

Sure they are asking for the money, as it will help the local areas and states make ends meet; paying for the unfunded mandates that they helped impose on their own states, with the help of Dems.

I would normally see this as hypocritical, but they aren't claiming the money is going to create jobs. I guess it is a bit though when it comes to the out of control spending issues.


Careful, they'll roll out the sockpuppet tactic if you appear to be agreeing with me.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:22:54 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

Sure they are asking for the money, as it will help the local areas and states make ends meet; paying for the unfunded mandates that they helped impose on their own states, with the help of Dems.

I would normally see this as hypocritical, but they aren't claiming the money is going to create jobs. I guess it is a bit though when it comes to the out of control spending issues.



They are claiming the money will create jobs and save jobs. Everything they claimed the stimulus bill would not do. That is hypocritical.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:24:34 PM   
Thadius


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That is highly unlikely, most folks around here understand that I am not a partisan whipping boy that will spout off the talking points of the day.

I could be wrong

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:26:47 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

Sure they are asking for the money, as it will help the local areas and states make ends meet; paying for the unfunded mandates that they helped impose on their own states, with the help of Dems.

I would normally see this as hypocritical, but they aren't claiming the money is going to create jobs. I guess it is a bit though when it comes to the out of control spending issues.



They are claiming the money will create jobs and save jobs. Everything they claimed the stimulus bill would not do. That is hypocritical.

If they are claiming that then I am in agreement with you. I haven't heard any of the statements so I can't make the call, but if it is as you are describing my position is that they are worthless hypocrits.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:30:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961




They are claiming the money will create jobs and save jobs. Everything they claimed the stimulus bill would not do. That is hypocritical.


If they said that, it is. I havent heard anyone say that. All Ive heard is them say that they are representing their district for their fair share of money that is being spent anyway. Provide some "create and save jobs" quotes, please.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:31:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

That is highly unlikely, most folks around here understand that I am not a partisan whipping boy that will spout off the talking points of the day.

I could be wrong


The desperate will try anything. :)

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:33:47 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

That is highly unlikely, most folks around here understand that I am not a partisan whipping boy that will spout off the talking points of the day.

I could be wrong


The desperate will try anything. :)

Some of your remarks around here make that quite obvious.

That being said, at least you seem pretty consistant in your positions which isn't a bad thing.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:35:24 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only problem is that not all of the stimulus money has been paid out. Republican congressmen who voted against the bill are asking for stimulus funds claiming it will do good things for their districts.

Sure they are asking for the money, as it will help the local areas and states make ends meet; paying for the unfunded mandates that they helped impose on their own states, with the help of Dems.

I would normally see this as hypocritical, but they aren't claiming the money is going to create jobs.

They aren't?
http://www.pjstar.com/news/x814065793/Congressmen-tout-green-money

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:43:18 PM   
jlf1961


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Thadius, the Washington Times article is Stimulus foes see value in seeking cash

Some of the quotes are:
quote:

Sen. Christopher S. Bond regularly railed against President Obama's economic stimulus plan as irresponsible spending that would drive up the national debt.
In a letter to Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, Mr. Bond noted that one project applying to the USDA for stimulus money would "create jobs and ultimately spur economic opportunities."


quote:

Rep. Joe Wilson, South Carolina Republican who became famous after yelling, "You lie," during Mr. Obama's addresses to Congress in September, voted against the stimulus. Nonetheless, Mr. Wilson elbowed his way into the rush for federal stimulus cash in a letter he sent to Mr. Vilsack on behalf of a foundation seeking funding.

"We know their endeavor will provide jobs and investment in one of the poorer sections of the Congressional District," he wrote to Mr. Vilsack in the Aug. 26, 2009, letter.


quote:

On Feb. 13, 2009, Sen. Robert F. Bennett, Utah Republican, issued a statement criticizing the stimulus — but two days earlier, he privately forwarded to Mr. Vilsack a list of projects seeking stimulus money.

"I believe the addition of federal funds to these projects would maximize the stimulative effect of these projects on the local economy," he wrote.


quote:

Also facing a competitive race, Rep. Pat Tiberi, Ohio Republican, in October called the final Democratic stimulus bill "loaded with [House Speaker] Nancy Pelosi's grab bag of big spending wishes" and that it "saddles future generations with mountains of debt."

He struck a different tone in a letter to Mr. Vilsack.

"While this project is intended to expand rural broadband in Alaska, I understand that the project could support businesses and jobs in communities across the country," Mr. Tiberi wrote, citing one such company in his district.


quote:

Before his vote against the stimulus, Sen. Mike Johanns, who took office last year from Nebraska, predicted that "the money would simply never reach the economy."

A secretary of agriculture under President George W. Bush, Mr. Johanns later told the Grand Island, Neb., Independent newspaper that "it would be hard for me to imagine that we are going to be creating many jobs here." Yet he saw the prospect of at least a few dozen jobs in a letter he later sent to Mr. Vilsack for a home-state project, records show.

"The proposed project would create 38 new jobs and bring broadband to eight hospitals, five colleges, 16 libraries and 161 K-12 schools," Mr. Johanns wrote.


quote:

Ranked among the most conservative members of the House by the American Conservative Union (ACU), Rep. John Linder, Georgia Republican, posted a blog item on his Web site on Oct. 21, stating that recent unemployment figures "only reinforce the fact that the $787 billion 'stimulus' signed into law eight months ago has done nothing for job growth in this country."

Two weeks earlier, Mr. Linder had sent a letter to Mr. Vilsack backing an application for stimulus money by the Elauwit Community Foundation, records show. With unemployment in Georgia topping 10 percent, "the employment opportunities created by this program would be quickly utilized," Mr. Linder wrote.


There is an article in the very conservative Wall Street Journal but I cant find a link to the story. I will continue to look for it.

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RE: Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success - 2/17/2010 11:53:34 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Of course, no one can be certain about what would have happened in an alternate universe without a $787 billion stimulus. But there are two main reasons to think the hard-core skeptics are misguided — above and beyond those complicated, independent economic analyses.


The administration seemed pretty certain about what would have happened if the stimulus package didn't pass. They claimed that if they did nothing that unemployment would hit 8.8%. From their own report...

quote:


As Figure 1 shows, even with the large prototypical package, the
unemployment rate in 2010Q4 is predicted to be approximately 7.0%, which is well below the
approximately 8.8% that would result in the absence of a plan.1






Attachment (1)

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