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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:19:54 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

And I should be worshipping this god because ...?

  

The answer from a Christian perspective, of course, is obvious.  It's also obvious what your response to it will be.  So, why are we wasting our time again?

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:20:58 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		It's what Bob does.

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:22:24 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

So what you are saying is all those decent and honourable hindus who in good faith believe in their religion will be punted into the lake of fire by your god of love because none of them believe in your god.


Strawman.  Again.


quote:

Your parents are not gods with limitless power.


Red herring, again.  The point was one about love, not power.


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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:22:25 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Not really.  Telling someone what you plan to do in the future is not exactly the same.


The book of revelation is a vision of what is to come to pass. John is not being told what the plan is to be. He is being shown the future as it will happen, according to god's will.

God created the universe, so he is responsible for it. He has the power to stop any event, so every event that happens, happens with his blessing. He has the power to change any person (he hardens the heart of Pharoah, thus providing an excuse for yet another plague on egypt), so anyone who doesn't believe in your god is acting in accordance with the wishes of your god.

Anyone who doesn't believe gets deep fried.

So, in acting in accordance with your god's wishes and not believing he exists I will be rewarded on judgment day by being drop-kicked into a lake of fire.


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:25:15 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Assumptions like that and you accuse me of not being open minded? ;)

That you've reinvented Christianity for yourself wasn't an assumption.

But hey, no problem. Just don't imagine that what works for you is necessarily right in any absolute sense and that disagreement signifies a mind that is closed to the truth.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2010 10:27:45 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:29:34 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Or did you just decide to study the Bible and reinvent Christianity for yourself?


Assumptions like that and you accuse me of not being open minded? ;)

To accurately describe my journey would be far beyond the scope of this topic.  If you *really* do care to know, rather than just trying to make a "Hah, gotcha!" point, I'd be happy to do my best elsewhere when there's time though.  (And if that was a sincere question I apologize for assuming, but the wording did come across as a loaded "Gotcha!" one).


Or you could have just answered the question.

I've been participating in discussions about religion for almost forty years now. I was raised in the christian faith because my agnostic father wanted me well-versed on the dominant faith of my culture.

There is a lot of good in the man, Jesus, a lot of wisdom about love which I respect.

But there are a lot of people who have chosen to worship Paul, claiming that Paul spoke for Jesus.

I reject that claim.

Paul speaks of faith. Jesus spoke of works. "By their fruits will ye know them".

I consider Paul a fraud. I consider Jesus a wise man who tried to teach his people about love, despite the fact they worshiped a war god.

He failed.

< Message edited by BLoved -- 2/23/2010 10:30:27 AM >

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:30:37 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
He has the power to change any person (he hardens the heart of Pharoah, thus )providing an excuse for yet another plague on egypt


There's some contention on this point. One thing that translators didn't understand about Hebrew is that there was a permissive tense.  A lot of stuff that got translated as "God will smite you" actually should have read "God will have to allow you to be smitten".

With some references of Pharoah hardening his own heart (See Exodus 8:15 and 32), it seems equally plausible that God might have known enough about Pharoah to know he would harden his heart.  Is this the case?  I can't say for certain.  But there's certainly enough there that you can't say for a certainty that God "changed Pharoah by hardening his heart" either.

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:34:40 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


But hey, no problem. Just don't imagine that what works for you is necessarily right in any absolute sense and that disagreement signifies a mind that is closed to the truth.

K.[/font][/size]


That's not what I'm contending. My accusation of his not being open minded, is in his insistence of repeating the same arguments, using logical fallacies, and ignoring anything that disagrees with him, only to repeat the same argument, much like he did in the other thread he started that got shut down.

Hell, look at his signature. He asserts that anyone who doesn't believe in his viewpoints on love and BDSM is completely against love, despite many people telling him otherwise in the other thread. He just ignores it and keeps asserting. His way is the "Loving" way, everyone else is against love.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:40:46 AM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		That story was written by humans not by God.

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:41:52 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

Paul speaks of faith. Jesus spoke of works. "By their fruits will ye know them".


Paul also speaks of works, and Jesus of faith. They aren't mutually exclusive. (In fact, faith and works go quite hand in hand).

Paul is the one that told of how Abraham's faith regarding Isaac was so strong, that he acted on it.


(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:46:08 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
That you've reinvented Christianity for yourself wasn't an assumption.


Oh, btw, that's not what you said though.  You asked if I "Just" reinvented Christianity for myself.  That changes the meaning quite definately, and is something you very much assumed wrong. =)

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:48:31 AM   
BLoved


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Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
He has the power to change any person (he hardens the heart of Pharoah, thus )providing an excuse for yet another plague on egypt


...

But there's certainly enough there that you can't say for a certainty that God "changed Pharoah by hardening his heart" either.


Exodus 9:12
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharoah, and he hearkened not unto them ...

Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart, and he would not let them go.

Obviously your god has no trouble messing with a person's ability to choose his own path.

Who is to say my rejection of your god isn't the result of your god messing with me?


< Message edited by BLoved -- 2/23/2010 10:49:21 AM >

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:50:35 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
That story was written by humans not by God.


It is still intended to teach us a lesson.

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:53:38 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

Obviously your god has no trouble messing with a person's ability to choose his own path.

Who is to say my rejection of your god isn't the result of your god messing with me?



Nice of you to cut out the part where I addressed that.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Part I said that was inconvenient to your point and thus got cut.

There's some contention on this point. One thing that translators didn't understand about Hebrew is that there was a permissive tense.  A lot of stuff that got translated as "God will smite you" actually should have read "God will have to allow you to be smitten".

With some references of Pharoah hardening his own heart (See Exodus 8:15 and 32), it seems equally plausible that God might have known enough about Pharoah to know he would harden his heart.

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 10:58:18 AM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		The really amusing thing about Christanity is the fear trip involved. Heaven and hell. I am often asked.."What if you are wrong about there being no hell?"

My usual response is-"It means I will have an eternity to fuck with you-since you sure aren't getting into heaven at the rate you are going-hypocrite."

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 11:01:00 AM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Paul speaks of faith. Jesus spoke of works. "By their fruits will ye know them".

Paul also speaks of works, and Jesus of faith. They aren't mutually exclusive. (In fact, faith and works go quite hand in hand).


Matthew 7:21, 24-27

The emphasis is on doing that which one is instructed to do.

Faith is not enough. The young prince who wanted to be perfect, he was told to give all he had to the poor and to follow Jesus, and he went away instead.

It was not enough to have faith in Jesus, one must follow in his footsteps.


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 11:03:46 AM   
BLoved


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Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Nice of you to cut out the part where I addressed that.


You want me to place my faith in you rather than the words of the bible which I quoted?

Are you claiming to have the authority of a Prophet?


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 11:09:27 AM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
The really amusing thing about Christanity is the fear trip involved. Heaven and hell. I am often asked.."What if you are wrong about there being no hell?"

My usual response is-"It means I will have an eternity to fuck with you-since you sure aren't getting into heaven at the rate you are going-hypocrite."


If revelations is correct, my father, my wife and my son are all slated for the lake of fire.

How likely is it I'm going to worship a god who decided to treat my family in that way?

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to Smutmonger)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 11:12:54 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
The really amusing thing about Christanity is the fear trip involved. Heaven and hell. I am often asked.."What if you are wrong about there being no hell?"

My usual response is-"It means I will have an eternity to fuck with you-since you sure aren't getting into heaven at the rate you are going-hypocrite."


If revelations is correct, my father, my wife and my son are all slated for the lake of fire.

How likely is it I'm going to worship a god who decided to treat my family in that way?


You are so right. You shouldn't. In fact I don't think you should even talk about him. Don't want all that negative energy clouding up your day


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 11:34:13 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

You want me to place my faith in you rather than the words of the bible which I quoted?



Yet another strawman.  I didn't suggest that at all.

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 200
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