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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 3:10:58 PM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Well I hope you and your god have a good time punting the rest of us into the lake of fire, because by the looks of it, you're the only one who's getting into heaven.

Another logical fallacy. :p Red herring, appeal to emotion, non sequiter, possibly a strawman.

My response was in regards to your assumptions about what I do with my wealth, and my faith in regards to your quoted scripture.


Watch for me. I'll be the one waving as I yell "Kowabunga!!" after I've been punted.

Deep fried by the god of love ... there ought to be a song with those words in the lyrics ;)

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 3:16:20 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Well I hope you and your god have a good time punting the rest of us into the lake of fire, because by the looks of it, you're the only one who's getting into heaven.

Another logical fallacy. :p Red herring, appeal to emotion, non sequiter, possibly a strawman.

My response was in regards to your assumptions about what I do with my wealth, and my faith in regards to your quoted scripture.


Watch for me. I'll be the one waving as I yell "Kowabunga!!" after I've been punted.

Deep fried by the god of love ... there ought to be a song with those words in the lyrics ;)


More logical fallacies.

Argumentum ad misericordiam, and Argumentum ad nauseam.

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Profile   Post #: 222
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 3:25:10 PM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Watch for me. I'll be the one waving as I yell "Kowabunga!!" after I've been punted.

Deep fried by the god of love ... there ought to be a song with those words in the lyrics ;)


More logical fallacies.

Argumentum ad misericordiam, and Argumentum ad nauseam.


It's called "Humour", Spock.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 3:46:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

More logical fallacies.

Well, then, let's not forget the Fallacist's Fallacy, which incorrectly asserts that an idea is false simply because the argument offered for it is fallacious, and, too, the Appeal to Authority inherent in the Biblical basis of your faith.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2010 4:26:12 PM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 4:24:56 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Look up "theodicy" on wiki: the mother church has spent centuries inventing excuses for that one.


Yeah, but I want answers, not excuses. But there aren't any, not here.


So question, do you know of any sources/quotes/writings that suggest there shouldn't be any suffering among the innocent in a fallen world?

If you don't have any, I fail to see why answers/excuses are necessary.


I assume you mean written/inspired by God?

Irregardless, it is necessary for me to understand God. All I can think of is, he gives us enough to find truth in him, but holds enough back, hoping our faith is enough to bridge the gap. I don't know if mine is that strong.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 4:34:58 PM   
Thadius


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All I can think of is all of the verses that talk about things being revealed in God's time. When I have questions regarding my faith, I do the same as all of the examples in the scripture have done, I pray and reflect on what I do know. I have faith that some of those questions may be answered for me, and know that some won't. I suppose it is kind of like wondering about why eyes don't come in different colors like purple, red, or neon pink.

I wish you well,
Thadius

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 4:42:59 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Good evening, Thadius. I try to keep a good perspective on the subject, but it's a struggle.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 4:54:40 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		God and I have this on again off again thing going. The premise that He gave us feel will to decide the disposition of our souls seems like a sucker bet to Me. God. being omnipotent, already KNOWS what will happen so why go through the motions... Or not.

A friend of mine told me this and it sums it up nicely for Me.

God and I still talk, but we have agreed to see other people.

Jeff

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Profile   Post #: 228
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 5:04:11 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
If revelations is correct, my father, my wife and my son are all slated for the lake of fire.


I doubt that. Humanity and the human mind is evolving. In the course of millenniums perforce the relationship with the Divine changes.

I do not know why you think that your deceased are slated for a lake of fire, but you are probably wrong. People usually are.

May the God of the Dead reward your deceased according to their merits.

As for all this Bible interpretation ado, how about tossing it aside and using our own brains instead - provided we have some, of course. Anybody who does not, will have to rely on those who do have brains.


< Message edited by Rule -- 2/23/2010 5:07:12 PM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 5:19:14 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

I am curious ... exactly what are we supposed to learn from the story of Noah's Flood?

God, the creator, all knowing and all loving, decides he hates humanity so much he not only wants to drown them all, but drown every living thing along with them ... butterflies, baby birds, snails ...

Exactly what did the butterflies do that God decided they have to go too?

And as for the manner of wiping out humanity: drowning ... has anyone thought of what it was like for all the newborns and toddlers? And what of their parents, struggling to keep their children alive?

And after all this destruction and misery, God the all-knowing feels bad and promises never to do it again.

Didn't God know he'd feel this way before he drowned everything?

Was there no more humane way for God to have wiped out humanity without causing suffering and without killing off the butterflies? Was God limited in imagination?

Considering this is the god of Jesus, I am curious as to how this incident fits within the paradigm that God is a loving god.


This is one of those, umm, eye roll questions. You know, the kind asked not really looking for an answer, but as a means of attack.

Assuming one can create butterflies at the wink of an eye, the eradication of them as collateral damage wouldn't be much reason to lose any sleep or spend eternity twisting one's gut over the decision.



So are you saying I respect the sanctity of life more than god?


no... I'm saying you're smug, asinine and posing a question that is intended as a method of attack. That's what I'm saying. 


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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 5:21:53 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		You are casting pearls before swine...........

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Profile   Post #: 231
RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 5:24:54 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		I would say that the lesson is to be prepared and plan ahead for changes in the environment. 

FYI - Stories of a great flood are common in cultures around the world.


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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 5:59:43 PM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
If revelations is correct, my father, my wife and my son are all slated for the lake of fire.

I doubt that. Humanity and the human mind is evolving. In the course of millenniums perforce the relationship with the Divine changes.

I do not know why you think that your deceased are slated for a lake of fire, but you are probably wrong. People usually are.

May the God of the Dead reward your deceased according to their merits.


Thank you.

I do not believe in the book of revelations.

In my 30s, before I met my wife, I had an experience which I consider fundamentally spiritual, a vision of my father and grandfather in what I later learned is a place called "The Summer Lands".

We were able to talk, say our farewells, something we never got to do in life. It put my soul to rest regarding death.

Death is not the end.

When my wife and son passed away, this belief was considerably helpful.

There is so much more to life than worrying about whether some old guy with a beard will be punting me into a lake of fire.

So much to learn about love ...


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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:13:07 PM   
eyesopened


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Status: offline 		Flood stories are not limited to the book of Genesis.  The story may have originated much earlier in other middle eastern societies.  There is some geological evidence that a major flood took place in antiquity.

The Old Testament wasn't written for you or for me or for Christians.  This is a work of bringing a group of displaced nomadic people together to form one cohesive People.  Therefore it makes sense when trying to bring separate tribes, groups, lineages, traditions together as one, to incorporate the best and most beloved oral traditions of those people into one. 

What is commonaly called the Old Testament was written to form a single Identity of former slaves.  It is not unlike the purpose of Kwanza, an effort to form a community and sense of identity.  Judiasm is not a religion as much as it is an identity.  When the Bibile is read with the context in mind, it makes a lot more sense.  While there seems to be evidence of a great flood, there is no evidence that it actaully killed everybody and everything except Noah and his family. 

What I find interesting about the story is that the earth is described as previous to this event, having not experienced any rain at all but moisture arose from the ground.  Science confirms this but it would have been at a time in earth's history before there were humans.  To me, this little fact buried within the story is the most telling.  How could anyone have known this?  Hmmmmm.  The lesson then, to me, is that God is found in the very small, in the details, in the quiet moments, when we actually seek to know.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:26:12 PM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
What I find interesting about the story is that the earth is described as previous to this event, having not experienced any rain at all but moisture arose from the ground.  Science confirms this but it would have been at a time in earth's history before there were humans.


I am unfamiliar with any scientific theory or fact that states there was a time when there was no rain but that moisture arose from the ground.

Would you please provide more details?


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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:59:17 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I am curious ... exactly what are we supposed to learn from the story of Noah's Flood?


The Bibles a scam.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:10:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

I am unfamiliar with any scientific theory or fact that states there was a time when there was no rain but that moisture arose from the ground.

To the best of my understanding, there are two hypothesized sources for the water found on our planet. One source is water in the materials which formed the Earth, with surface water resulting from condensation due to the outgassing of water vapor. The other hypothesized source is comets. But whether one or the other or both, and in the latter case how much due to each, remains unknown to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps someone else can add more.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2010 7:12:30 PM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:16:32 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I would be inclined to suggest that gods who throw genocidal tantrums, feel bad afterward, and finally decide to offer us a better deal, are the stuff of myth -- which can be productively mined for an understanding of ourselves, but not taken as a literal depiction of the ultimate ground of our being.



I would agree. The deeper question posted by the OP is, why is the Old Testament God such a prick? I have read about a dozen stories from the OT where God either commands or allows his followers to do all kinds of bloodcurdling gruesome shit.

My take on it, we can only understand God in terms of our own understanding. The OT people lived in a really harsh environment, where starvation and death from all sorts of things was teh rule of the day. even the rich and powerful were helpless in the face of disease and natrual disasters.

So of course the brutal God who vaporized Sodom and Gomorrah was actually kinder, more just and loving than the daily perversity of droughts and floods the people had to contend with.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:19:55 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		And God so loved the people of Sodom and Gomorrah that he killed each and very one!

And then, for laughs, turned his faithful servant's wife into salt.

Salt was valuable back then. What a guy that God!

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:22:34 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
So of course the brutal God who vaporized Sodom and Gomorrah was actually kinder, more just and loving than the daily perversity of droughts and floods the people had to contend with.


Or put a more comprehensible and acceptable face on inexplicable and terrifying events. An angry god can be appeased. You have some measure of control and understanding. A volanic eruption or an earthquake, absent any understanding of geology, is simply a random horrific event you can do nothing about.

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