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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:13:03 AM

Jeffff

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Bob?... your grasp of theology is equal to your grasp of bdsm.

Jeff

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:14:54 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
Bob?... your grasp of theology is equal to your grasp of bdsm.

Thank you.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:17:25 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

Why would a perfect all-knowing god make a "fallen world",

He didn't.

quote:

and how much of the suffering experienced in this fallen world is the result of a perfect god making such a world?

Which makes this part of the question irrelevant.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:21:44 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
In other words, the Word of God is too complicated for the average person to understand and we need experts to tell us what to believe ... we are expected to place our faith in fallible man, not the word of god.

Strawman. Don't put words in my mouth.

quote:

If Satan was cast out before the world was made, why did god allow satan into Eden

Who says he was? I think the Bible seems rather clear the earth existed before Lucifer fell.

quote:

and what was god doing being so chummy with Satan in Job, and turning Job over to Satan for torture?

Very long answer, but 1) God didn't "turn Job over", Job did that himself by sinning. God did inform Satan of such. It all worked out in the end though.

quote:

Indeed, why would an all-knowing god create satan when he knew satan would rebel?

Why make Adam and Eve when he knew in advance they would fall?

Why make humanity when he knew in advance he'd drown them all?

Another short version of a very long answer...should God just have sat there alone and never created humanity at all just because he knew some would screw up before all was said and done?

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:49:32 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Why would a perfect all-knowing god make a "fallen world",

He didn't.

He made a world he knew in advance would fall.

While one might ask what kind of god would make a world where he knew there would be so much suffering, one must concede he knowingly made a world where he knew there would be great suffering.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 6:57:06 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
In other words, the Word of God is too complicated for the average person to understand and we need experts to tell us what to believe ... we are expected to place our faith in fallible man, not the word of god.

Strawman. Don't put words in my mouth.

You said "Actually, much of it does make perfect sense...it just requires a ton of study, a deeper understanding than most are willing to spend the effort on, including a lot of figuring out where the King James people got translations wrong, and a change in paradigm about what Christianity is."

How else shall I interpret this except that you are saying the word of god is beyond the understanding of the average person and thus the average person must place his or her faith in the 'experts' and hope their interpretation is right, because if it is wrong everyone who listened gets to go to hell instead of heaven?

And upon this flimsy basis the plans of god for our salvation depend.

quote:

quote:

If Satan was cast out before the world was made, why did god allow satan into Eden

Who says he was? I think the Bible seems rather clear the earth existed before Lucifer fell.

You said "God creates world (billions of years ago). Satan falls, angels get cast out, God recreates world, puts man on it"

In other words, satan had fallen before the snake showed up in eden to tempt eve. Since the snake is widely understood to be satan in disguise, how did a fallen satan sneak into eden without the all-knowing god knowing of it ... and if god did know of it, and knew in advance satan would tempte eve and that this would lead to the fall ... why did he permit it?

What kind of all-loving father let's the drug dealer into his house to tempt his kids?

< Message edited by BLoved -- 2/23/2010 6:58:08 AM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:09:10 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
and what was god doing being so chummy with Satan in Job, and turning Job over to Satan for torture?

Very long answer, but 1) God didn't "turn Job over", Job did that himself by sinning. God did inform Satan of such.

You don't know much about Job, do you?

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

For the rest I suggest you read Job 1: 6-12

quote:

It all worked out in the end though.

All of his children were killed (Job 1: 18-19)

quote:

quote:

Indeed, why would an all-knowing god create satan when he knew satan would rebel?

Why make Adam and Eve when he knew in advance they would fall?

Why make humanity when he knew in advance he'd drown them all?

Another short version of a very long answer...should God just have sat there alone and never created humanity at all just because he knew some would screw up before all was said and done?

Are you saying god is incapable of making a perfect world and a perfect people?

< Message edited by BLoved -- 2/23/2010 7:10:09 AM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:11:38 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

How else shall I interpret this except that you are saying the word of god is beyond the understanding of the average person and thus the average person must place his or her faith in the 'experts' and hope their interpretation is right, because if it is wrong everyone who listened gets to go to hell instead of heaven?

First of all by not assuming I said something that I didn't. Do you ever post anything without a logical fallacy? You strawman more than anyone else I know.

I said nothing about the capability of the "average person". I did say something about the "willingness."

quote:

Since the snake is widely understood to be satan in disguise, how did a fallen satan sneak into eden without the all-knowing god knowing of it ...

Why did God have to call out to Adam asking where he is? Or then ask how he knew he was naked? The answers here are beyond the scope of what I have time for, but it demonstrates why you shouldn't assume too much. Personally, I think omniscience/omnipotence is a paradox, but if we try to actually understand the terms as it applies to God, (with the lack of better terms) rather than try and shoehorn what we think God should be, one might actually understand God a bit better.

quote:

one must concede he knowingly made a world where he knew there would be great suffering.

Never knew it needed conceded, simply because I've never contested such. There's also great joy that never would have come to pass though if the world had not been created. I believe God created mankind to have a being on his own level spiritually and intellectually to fellowship with. How else would God do that, unless he made us beings capable of making our own mistakes, even if those mistakes cause suffering? Moses even once had to stop God from making a mistake, and the Bible says God repented.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:12:19 AM

kittinSol

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God isn't a creator. The universe arose of its own accord and God is outside of it. God is independent from human and natural considerations.

Discuss

.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:13:49 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

You don't know much about Job, do you?

Yes, I do. I know that Job prayed every day out of fear and worry for the sins his son may have committed. I also know that the Bible calls fear/worry a sin. Thus, Job was a sinner.

How could God thus say Job was without Sin?

The book of Romans says that God "Calls things that be not as though they were." Once you realize this is how God operates (Calling the sick well, while they're still sick, thus making them well), then you realize God was calling things that be not as though they were in regards to Job. And it worked.

You don't know much about God, do you?

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:16:10 AM

BLoved

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~FR~

Is God an amateur?

God makes angels knowing satan and his friends will fall ...

God makes humans knowing they will fall ...

Seems god delights in making flawed creations so he can punish them later.

Far from being a loving god, God appears to be a sadist.

Look at what he had done to his son.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:17:46 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

~FR~

Is God an amateur?

God makes angels knowing satan and his friends will fall ...

God makes humans knowing they will fall ...

Seems god delights in making flawed creations so he can punish them later.

Far from being a loving god, God appears to be a sadist.

Red herring. Doing something knowing a bad effect might come out before everything works out in the end does not require delighting in it.

Or have you never done anything while knowing it might suck in the short term but that it'd be worth it in the end? I know I have.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 2/23/2010 7:21:38 AM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:23:13 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
You don't know much about Job, do you?

Yes, I do. I know that Job prayed every day out of fear and worry for the sins his son may have committed.

Quote?

quote:

I also know that the Bible calls fear/worry a sin. Thus, Job was a sinner.

So when the bible says Job "was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil", you disbelieve the bible.

quote:

How could God thus say Job was without Sin?

Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, Has thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

quote:

The book of Romans says that God "Calls things that be not as though they were." Once you realize this is how God operates (Calling the sick well, while they're still sick, thus making them well), then you realize God was calling things that be not as though they were in regards to Job. And it worked.

So I should listen to Paul rather than the quoted words of God? Paul says god lies and I should believe that?

quote:

You don't know much about God, do you?

~smile~

Far more than you can imagine.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:25:30 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

~FR~

Is God an amateur?

God makes angels knowing satan and his friends will fall ...

God makes humans knowing they will fall ...

Seems god delights in making flawed creations so he can punish them later.

Far from being a loving god, God appears to be a sadist.

Red herring. Doing something knowing a bad effect might come out before everything works out in the end does not require delighting in it.

Or have you never done anything while knowing it might suck in the short term but that it'd be worth it in the end? I know I have.

I do not have the power of god to make everything perfect.

However, I'd expect a loving father to do exactly that for his kids.

A sadist, on the other hand, would make the world we live in.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:31:25 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Quote?

5And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

...

3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

quote:

So when the bible says Job "was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil", you disbelieve the bible.

No, I believe God was calling things that be not as though they were, which is very much a part of how God operates. I already answered that; try to keep up.

quote:

So I should listen to Paul rather than the quoted words of God? Paul says god lies and I should believe that?

Paul didn't say God lies. Paul is describing a method God uses to bring about what he wants brought about. For instance, a better translation of a verse in Genesis 1:1 is, "And God said "Light is", and light was."

Thus, meaning, while it was still dark, God said that light exists, and therefore it did.

quote:

Far more than you can imagine.

You seem to be wrong about him an awful lot here then.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:34:02 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I do not have the power of god to make everything perfect.

However, I'd expect a loving father to do exactly that for his kids.

A sadist, on the other hand, would make the world we live in.

That reminds me of the silly paradox question "Can God make a wall so strong even he can't break it?"

Would we really be children of God if God created us without the capacity to make mistakes? The mistakes made were ours, not God's after all.

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:41:49 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Quote?

5And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

And yet in verse 8 god calls Job "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

Apparently god saw no evil in Job, despite your quote.

Indeed, God was so sure about Job he offered him to Satan to be corrupted. Now if Job was already corrupt, there would be no challenge and the book of Job would be pointless.

The message of Job is that no matter how bad things get, there is no excuse for cursing god. Job never turned his back on God, that is why he is rewarded at the end.

In other words, Job was not a sinner. He was a good man given to satan for testing. He passed the tests and is rewarded for it by god.

< Message edited by BLoved -- 2/23/2010 7:42:23 AM >

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:44:13 AM

Jeffff

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Wow, Bob not only knows the correct way to have a BDSM relationship, he also knows the mind of God.

A truly amazing individual!

Jeff

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:44:44 AM

BLoved

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I do not have the power of god to make everything perfect.

However, I'd expect a loving father to do exactly that for his kids.

A sadist, on the other hand, would make the world we live in.

That reminds me of the silly paradox question "Can God make a wall so strong even he can't break it?"

Would we really be children of God if God created us without the capacity to make mistakes? The mistakes made were ours, not God's after all.

If I make a roller-coaster that breaks, and I refuse to fix it, can I blame the roller-coaster for hurting people, or am I responsible for refusing to fix that which I've made?

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RE: About the "Flood" ... - 2/23/2010 7:52:42 AM

Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: BLoved

Apparently god saw no evil in Job, despite your quote.

Or more apparently, you're just entirely ignoring me because it's inconvenient to your argument.

quote:

In other words, Job was not a sinner. He was a good man given to satan for testing. He passed the tests and is rewarded for it by god.

Or, as the Bible seems to explain, Job was a good man who tried to be upright, with one flaw that the Bible clearly spells out. Job got tested, repented, and in the end, Job became exactly what God called him.

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