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training or abuse - 3/29/2006 2:54:39 AM

sonsei

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In an M/s relationship -

Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Respectfully, sonsei

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 4:18:19 AM

ivorylace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei

In an M/s relationship -

Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Respectfully, sonsei

A Master won't use pyschological abuse.

He knows your mind yes, He will try to work with that mind to both please him and better you. An abuser has one thing in mind and that is to abuse... Big Big difference and no line that I can see.

~ lace

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 5:32:20 AM

Cloudz

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Training and ABUSE? There should be no comparison.

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~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 6:02:20 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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It's a personal call. For me, motivation plays a big factor, are they doing it because you can all gain fulfillment and enjoyment from it, or are they doing it because they are insecure and want to put you down?

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 6:41:03 AM

fastlane

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Most Dominants will not employ Psychological abuse as it is neither beneficial to the Top or the bottom, unless it's contrived for a particular reason.
However, there are exceptions...If you meet a Dom that has just been released from a military tour of duty and he was stationed at a prison camp....run like hell!

Peace, Kevin

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Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 7:41:02 AM

sonsei

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To perhaps clarify...

It seems to me that there's a continuum of training ---> abuse with each end being an extreme.

For example: If a slave is afraid of exposing their body in vanilla public, it could be said that there's a continuum that begins with the Master requiring no exposure whatsoever, which not only doesn't facilitate any growth beyond the fear, but could possibly even nurture it - to the other extreme of requiring very slutty, revealing, on-the-verge-of-arrest attire during midday in the business district, which also may not facilitate growth beyond the fear, but for very different reasons, and may actually add to that original fear such that it could take much longer to conquer, if it ever is. That's damage.

quote:

He knows your mind yes, He will try to work with that mind to both please him and better you.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. But any time we start messing with someone's thoughts, fears, belief systems, etc, and that person has significant issues that haven't been fully addressed and resolved within themselves, we're taking a chance on doing damage, especially to trust. I'm not saying this would be done maliciously - not at all. But it's quite possible that the Master thinks he knows the slave and what they need better than the slave. The Master may even be extremely talented in the area of reading people. That doesn't mean they have the ability to safely cross over into areas in which they know there are red flags without it becoming abuse, intentionally or not. Especially after being told several times by the slave that it doesn't feel right, that they (the slave) doesn't think they're ready, that they're afraid that damage may be done, etc.

I guess my question is actually two-fold: when does training cross the line into psychological abuse, and how does the slave know when it's becoming abuse since we're not supposed to question, but simply trust? (and to expand on that - how do we let go and fully trust when there's a part of us that's saying nooo...this is wrong, it's not good for me? especially if we're not 100% positive that it is bad for us and we know there's a possibility that we're fighting on some level, and also if the Master has years of experience in the lifestyle and we're new.)

Respectfully, sonsei

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RE: training or abuse - 3/29/2006 8:20:18 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei

In an M/s relationship -

Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Respectfully, sonsei

The owner's ethical system.

C~

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 2:18:51 AM

Reilithion

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Let me just start by saying that I'm relatively new to BDSM, and that I don't know where the "line" between training and abuse lies (yet). However, I have some ideas about what ought to be going on in a healthy relationship if this ever becomes a question.

It lies in communication, and that precious attribute that effective communication inherently builds: Trust.

First of all, if you find yourself worrying about where this "line" you speak of is, then you and your Top haven't been communicating enough on the subject. Yes, zie may be your Master, but relationships have boundaries, and you need to be able to approach and discuss anything with your partner(s) openly so that problems like this can be addressed -- especially when you're new. If your Master disagrees on this point, I'd be very concerned about why, and I'd be very suspicious about zer intentions. (Note, however, that some Tops like to specify a context for which it's appropriate to have such discussions. I consider this a gray area, since we don't always feel the same way, even from moment to moment, but I can't find any other serious ethical problem with such a requirement.)

When things are going well, and it's just training, you should know. You might feel fear, or a little self-doubt, or maybe some anxiety, but you'll also feel confidence because you'll know that your Master knows how you feel about the subject, and you know -- deep down -- that you can trust them.

If you're filled with self-doubt, or there's a little voice in the back of your head crying out "No!", or if you find yourself adrift in fear with no confidence to anchor yourself to, then let the Warning alarms sound, because something isn't right. Hopefully, it's just a lack of communication, but do not dismiss the possibility that your Master does not currently have your best interests at heart. Be prepared to stand up for yourself if you need to, and if you feel the way I've described, shed all doubt, because you need to!

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 6:44:13 AM

MrDiscipline44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei

In an M/s relationship -

Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Respectfully, sonsei

The difference to me between training and abuse is when the techique used no longer teaches what I want one to learn and begins to damage them.

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to sonsei)

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 7:49:54 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

The difference to me between training and abuse is when the techique used no longer teaches what I want one to learn and begins to damage them.

Great answer

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 9:22:31 AM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei
Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Must there be a line?
Must every path wend about in daylight?

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 9:29:10 AM

loneslavepgh

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Here's a situation. the slave has an independant income and as a part of her situation puts her money into the "house funds" to help pay for needs expenses etc. she is promised security, help with things and stability in return for her servitude. Stability never comes, her position is always precarious and the "owners" feelings about it change with the moment never really accepting fully or adknowledging her gift of slavery and then refuses to help her work through her fears reguarding giving it all up and basicially ignoring her and making her work on her own.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 11:55:40 AM

CanadianGuy

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I think it's a good question. I'm not exactly sure, to be honest. But my thought right now is that it's a matter of intentions. If the master believes he is training the slave, then he is. If he believes he's being abusive, he is. Others' perceptions, from outside the master's mind (this includes the slave), can vary. But for me, I think it's all about how the master intends to do things.

Abuse intends to do harm. Sometimes it also builds.
Training intends to build. Sometimes it also harms.

(in reply to loneslavepgh)

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 2:15:46 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei
Where's the line between a Master's psychological training methods and psychological abuse?

Must there be a line?
Must every path wend about in daylight?

Isn't there? Can it be so fine it is invisible?

my very first conversation with my Master was about this. In my Yahoo profile i stated as my Latest News that i was learning what side of the line to stand on. He IM'd me to ask, "What line?" i said the line that differentiates dominance from abuse. The conversation ensued....to an eventual argument about something else. Heh.

(He won)

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 3:17:13 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Isn't there? Can it be so fine it is invisible?

Of course the line is there, but I find slavery akin to courting another bolgia with Dante. Following the path of the poets, one may come to understand that bondage is essentially abuse made pretty. Deeper still, the very word loses its luster, and becomes something else.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 4:03:15 PM

enslavegirl

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too funny

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 4:28:33 PM

SirLordTrainer

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I like to think thats why we have guidelines like pre-negotiatons and limits in place to prevent abuse. Our creed in BDSM is SSC (Safe Sane Consensual) so to Me if said Dominant, Master, Trainer, slave and sub have all done their homework and are worth their salt theyre shouldnt be any abuse, at least intentional. Although accidents can and do happen.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 7:31:36 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Isn't there? Can it be so fine it is invisible?

Of course the line is there, but I find slavery akin to courting another bolgia with Dante. Following the path of the poets, one may come to understand that bondage is essentially abuse made pretty. Deeper still, the very word loses its luster, and becomes something else.

After i posted what i did, i was going to edit it, to clarify that i was speaking in terms of abuse as i have experienced from sources outside my Owner. Of course he abuses me, but in ways that suit him, and which i respond favorably to. He does not abuse me in ways i do not.....well...usually ;) (i didn't edit it because my computer crashed and i had to get to work anyway.)

But i think in this thread, "abuse" is defined as that which is damaging to the spirit.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/30/2006 8:39:34 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

After i posted what i did, i was going to edit it, to clarify that i was speaking in terms of abuse as i have experienced from sources outside my Owner. Of course he abuses me, but in ways that suit him, and which i respond favorably to. He does not abuse me in ways i do not.....well...usually ;) (i didn't edit it because my computer crashed and i had to get to work anyway.)

But i think in this thread, "abuse" is defined as that which is damaging to the spirit.

Ah yes, the preferred hell.

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RE: training or abuse - 3/31/2006 12:28:17 AM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sonsei

: If a slave is afraid of exposing their body in vanilla public,

IMO, this is very uncool. I don't think exposing my kink to a nonconsensual group of folks is very respectful at all. I don't think anyone in any lifestyle should force their own private tastes on people who haven't consented to be a part of it.

mbmbn

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When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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