RE: If You Love Your Doormat...

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juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 10:57:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Appeal to emotion. While I would certainly have sympathetic concerns for your previous plights, it does not change the fact that you consented to be in that situation. Let's start further back, and see if you consider anything abuse. I was abused by my father when I was a kid, from about age three. Would you consider that abuse? How about the fact that by hitting me he could have caused the miscarriage of our unborn child... I suppose that wasn't at least abuse against our unborn baby...

tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 10:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl i will say this.. a discussion instead of demeaning posts that you just made might be helpful. Why do you think I was the one being demeaning? Im hardly stupid. neither are you.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 10:59:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Let's start further back, and see if you consider anything abuse. I was abused by my father when I was a kid, from about age three. Would you consider that abuse? Please note that the way you phrased this makes it very difficult for NZ to respond rationally. You just stated you were abused, without any description of behavior. All he knows from your words is that you feel you were abused - you didn't even give him enough information to form his own opinion. More importantly, you created a social environment with your words that makes it very touchy for him to disagree with your analysis - even if you had provided him with any way whatsoever to create his own analysis, which you did not. How do you expect him to respond?

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Let's start further back, and see if you consider anything abuse. I was abused by my father when I was a kid, from about age three. Would you consider that abuse? Children, and where the line should be drawn, is a horribly difficult gray area to isolate...usually because, at some chronological number, we have to presumably ascribe the ability for consent to a human. In your situation, however, I doubt even the most extreme arguments could make a case that a child of 3 under the custody of parents has and kind of ability to consent or capacity to choose to be in that situation or not. So, my personal answer is that, yes, I would consider that "abuse".

juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:01:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Let's start further back, and see if you consider anything abuse. I was abused by my father when I was a kid, from about age three. Would you consider that abuse? Please note that the way you phrased this makes it very difficult for NZ to respond rationally. You just stated you were abused, without any description of behavior. All he knows from your words is that you feel you were abused - you didn't even give him enough information to form his own opinion. More importantly, you created a social environment with your words that makes it very touchy for him to disagree with your analysis - even if you had provided him with any way whatsoever to create his own analysis, which you did not. How do you expect him to respond? I would expect him to outline what he believes abuse is... Since our definitions of it are just so much emotional blackmail

tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:01:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl NZ, i asked you to google the Slavemaster of Kansas city... im curious if you have done so. Okay. Cursory look-over of the topic and got some lightbulb flashback of memory about the case. What's the question? You then posted this... quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would want to be a doormat, because you're essentially having to sit there and hope a good person comes along to dominate you. If an abusive, cruel, fake Dom comes along, you won't be able to say no to him. safe). 1) There are no "abusive, cruel, fake" doms. Just doms that desire a different dynamic than that in which you'd be happily fulfilled. 2) I don't think that "wanting to be a doormat" is the issue here. It's the honest assessment by some that they happen to be a doormat or have doormatish qualities and finding ways to be able to embrace that while still remaining safe (whatever "safe" happens to mean to them). Do you still stand by the bolded part?

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Im hardly stupid. neither are you. Again, despite his candid style or asking what may otherwise seem rhetorical, I don't recall Ialda ever actually begging the question. But, fixating on the use of one adjective in one post because it seems dismissive of unviersal human value isn't really addressing the topic.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Why do you think I was the one being demeaning? Im hardly stupid. neither are you. I never accused either of us of being stupid...? Let me back up. I described a common behavior. People who are "doormats" are treated as tools. We even call them "tools". We even use the word "tool" as an insult to such people - "God, he's such a tool". And we do discard them when we're done with them. You know all this.

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Do you still stand by the bolded part? Yes. For instance, I was reading this part: "One of the women he assaulted apparently travelled from Texas to have little S&M session with the suspect in a local hotel. Like the other surviving victim, things got rougher than intended and, unlike at least five others, she was able to escape alive." The important part of that case is that there were instances where his actions clearly violated the consent of another human being, to the point of extreme harm. If any of those women actually wanted to give their lives for him in whatever odd way he wanted to take them, then there was not "abuse" (although, you could argue perhaps about the mental competency of the consenting party). Clearly, evidence suggested there were enough instances of clear consensual violation in his trial.

jujubeeMB -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Let's start further back, and see if you consider anything abuse. I was abused by my father when I was a kid, from about age three. Would you consider that abuse? Please note that the way you phrased this makes it very difficult for NZ to respond rationally. You just stated you were abused, without any description of behavior. All he knows from your words is that you feel you were abused - you didn't even give him enough information to form his own opinion. More importantly, you created a social environment with your words that makes it very touchy for him to disagree with your analysis - even if you had provided him with any way whatsoever to create his own analysis, which you did not. How do you expect him to respond? quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I would expect him to outline what he believes abuse is... Since our definitions of it are just so much emotional blackmail I agree with julia. I'm not really trying to make it easy for someone to "disagree" with my having been abused as a kid - it's just a simple fact. I actually think both of us stated what we had to say very crisply, without a sob story - the emotions are yours, if you have them, which you evidently do. And ps, there's nothing wrong with that.

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:08:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I would expect him to outline what he believes abuse is... Abuse is willing forcing upon another human being a state of physical (partially or fully) harm to which they have not consented. I might make rare exceptions to include "emotional" or "psychological" harm, but those would have to be very extreme circumstances with other mitigating factors.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:10:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Abuse is willing forcing upon another human being a state of physical (partially or fully) harm to which they have not consented. I might make rare exceptions to include "emotional" or "psychological" harm, but those would have to be very extreme circumstances with other mitigating factors. I strongly disagree with this definition, as it is not up to your normal level of dispassionate rigeur.

juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:11:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Im hardly stupid. neither are you. Again, despite his candid style or asking what may otherwise seem rhetorical, I don't recall Ialda ever actually begging the question. But, fixating on the use of one adjective in one post because it seems dismissive of unviersal human value isn't really addressing the topic. Neither was he addressing the topic by addressing her that way You know what, not everything is open to some sort of rhetorical discussion in which we all suspend our emotions, especially when we are discussing an emotional sort of topic... which this is.. People asked what a doormat is.. now we can parse words and cherry pick definitions in order to suit the reality that you seem to want to inhabit... This is an alt lifestyle, a sub culture if you will. We still live and operate within the larger culture. We do not speak a completely different language. You want to define a doormat as a consenting person that has whatever qualities that you want to imbue them with... like I said in my first post on this thread, knock yourself out.. but the vast majority of people that use the English language vote with how they use language... and most people think of a doormat as an abused person that isn't consenting to it, is unhappy in that situation, etc. I will draw the line at people stating that there is no such thing as abusing someone. Adults get abused every day. Now hopefully they will learn how to get out of it, and become survivors and not victims, like I have, but to say that there is hardly any abuse or coercion in this world.. well i draw the line at that because it does muddy the waters and it does put those of us who engage in consensual BDSM in the same category as those of us who do not.. and there is a difference.... a definable difference.

tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:12:15 PM)
Which is what brought all this on, the talk of doormats. The discussion turned to the typical... i dont have to worry about that because Master wouldnt make me do it... when discussing making a slave strip in a restaurant. i mentioned the fact that slaves have the responsibility to take care of their owners, as well as the owners have of taking care of the slaves. if you are an exhibitionist, then he is encouraging your fetish. if you are deeply mastered, then he is controlling you ( a good thing in my book) but there are worries depending on the setting. a doormat will simply do, and never once blink a lash, let alone question a strange command from anyone, let alone their owner. strokes happen everyday.. lol.. IF i got that command from Master, i would have to ask if he was kidding or feeling well because it would be so far out of character for him that i would not even consider it a serious command. but i am also no doormat. other girl's chimed in that they were doormats.. to their owners.. which is not the definition of a doormat. and the discussions have ensued. lol im just happy that i was able to produce so many meaningful discussions!

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:13:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I agree with julia. I'm not really trying to make it easy for someone to "disagree" with my having been abused as a kid - it's just a simple fact. I actually think both of us stated what we had to say very crisply, without a sob story - the emotions are yours, if you have them, which you evidently do. And ps, there's nothing wrong with that. Ialda brought up a very good point, although I was yielding to your declaration of abuse having happened. It's still a very slippery slope because human culture traditionally gives the parents of the child control over their ethical structure...meaning, "abuse" could get redefined any which way the parent wants. Maybe most of us would see raising a child to be a racist as "abuse", but that, strangely, is not something we can take a parent to court over (at least based on my knowledge of legality). Some people see daring to bathe with your child as potentially abusive (sexually). It's a dangerous blob of gray. In the cases of physical damage or overt sexual misconduct, it's a bit easier to say when child abuse is happening...but, unfortunately, it's far from being a clear issue.

juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:18:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I would expect him to outline what he believes abuse is... Abuse is willing forcing upon another human being a state of physical (partially or fully) harm to which they have not consented. I might make rare exceptions to include "emotional" or "psychological" harm, but those would have to be very extreme circumstances with other mitigating factors. the legal system in the USA disagrees with you... and so do I Like I said a few pages ago, you are speaking a different language than I do, how can we have a conversation when we cannot agree what terms mean? Simply we can't.

tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Do you still stand by the bolded part? Yes. For instance, I was reading this part: "One of the women he assaulted apparently travelled from Texas to have little S&M session with the suspect in a local hotel. Like the other surviving victim, things got rougher than intended and, unlike at least five others, she was able to escape alive." The important part of that case is that there were instances where his actions clearly violated the consent of another human being, to the point of extreme harm. If any of those women actually wanted to give their lives for him in whatever odd way he wanted to take them, then there was not "abuse" (although, you could argue perhaps about the mental competency of the consenting party). Clearly, evidence suggested there were enough instances of clear consensual violation in his trial. In this, NZ, you can twist and deform the intent, but we both know his intent was one of domination before killing. 5 women, all killed in the same manner. Others never found. So you are going to try and pretend that all 5 women wanted to die by his hands?

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:21:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You know what, not everything is open to some sort of rhetorical discussion in which we all suspend our emotions, especially when we are discussing an emotional sort of topic... which this is.. Then I apologize for the presumption that objective intellectual debate could take place. I've gotten into similar problems before...most notably during a conversation paralleling the similarities of female genital mutilation to circumcision...with women who had circumcized sons. In hindsight, perhaps not the best audience (granted, I didn't hand-pick them). quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania People asked what a doormat is.. now we can parse words and cherry pick definitions in order to suit the reality that you seem to want to inhabit... I've been asking questions the whole time. I fail to see where this proselytizing you seem to think I'm doing is actually happening. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This is an alt lifestyle, a sub culture if you will. We still live and operate within the larger culture. We do not speak a completely different language. You want to define a doormat as a consenting person that has whatever qualities that you want to imbue them with... like I said in my first post on this thread, knock yourself out.. Again...where have I said I wanted the definition of "doormat" to be redefined as what I see it as? quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania but the vast majority of people that use the English language vote with how they use language... and most people think of a doormat as an abused person that isn't consenting to it, is unhappy in that situation, etc. And I understand that definition and see where it applies, based on colloquial use. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I will draw the line at people stating that there is no such thing as abusing someone. Something which no one here has said. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Adults get abused every day. Yes, they do. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Now hopefully they will learn how to get out of it, and become survivors and not victims, like I have, but to say that there is hardly any abuse or coercion in this world.. well i draw the line at that because it does muddy the waters and it does put those of us who engage in consensual BDSM in the same category as those of us who do not.. and there is a difference.... a definable difference. Now, you're doing a bit of projecting. Obviously anyone who is being abused, we hope they "get out of it". If a young girl has been kidnapped and is being held captive in some whacko's basement, obviously I want her to escape! However, speaking of people who are in situations which they are capable of leaving but in which they choose to stay...that's not an issue of abuse. that's an issue of an underdeveloped ability to assess one's life situation. And I'm not saying it doesn't suck. I'm not saying anyone is "at fault" for that being the case. I'm saying that choosing to be a martyr has no bearing on the nobility (or lack thereof) of the person/purpose you are martyring yourself for.

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:23:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania the legal system in the USA disagrees with you... and so do I So, just to be clear: You consider every individual in, say, Oklahoma who is on this site and who has engaged in BDSM acitivities, to be a criminal? The legal system is clear on that. I take it you are as well?

NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:24:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In this, NZ, you can twist and deform the intent, but we both know his intent was one of domination before killing. 5 women, all killed in the same manner. Others never found. So you are going to try and pretend that all 5 women wanted to die by his hands? I'm not pretending to know anything about their feelings. I only just went through the details of the case 15 minutes ago. But, if there was at least 1 woman among them all who was pushed beyond her threshold of consent, then his abuse is real and apparent. (And death is usually one of those things that can almost always be considered a non-consensual thing.)

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