RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:56:28 PM)

quote:

I would like to humbly suggest we refrain from personal examples. It's not conducive to objective debate because my initial response here is to address the fact they we don't know what happened (specifically), only you do. So, if your ethical structure would consider a spanking as "abuse", then you would call it abuse but many people might be skeptical of whether such was the case.


You are exaggerating again...

There is no such thing as human objectivity...

But even so, you are not even willing to entertain the legal definition of abuse because it does not suit your position... like I said...we can't get there from here

quote:

"I was abused in a relationship that I stayed in longer than I should have because I thought there might be something to hold onto if I tried hard enough."

That reality is one of owning up to making a crap choice as to when to back out of a failing relationship. Unless there was forcible coercion or physical restriction/assault, the only thing keeping the person in what they saw as an abusive relationship was their own intellectual shortcomings.


If I were a more jaded person I would think that you were trying to be intentionally  inflammatory in an attempt to make me emotional, you failed if this is your game...

Like I posted earlier... the most common cause of death for pregnant women is murder.. women are murdered and threatened with murder or homelessness, or taking their children away from them every day...

But you go on arguing apples when I am arguing oranges




Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:57:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im sorry you were abused. Im sorry your parents did not support you. Im sorry you were then abused by the school and your parents as a result. But it doesnt change the fact that it was abusive, that you were a victim, and that those who did the deed were wrong.


No, but that and a defamation lawsuit will.




tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/25/2010 11:58:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yet he called himself a "dom". He was abusive. He was cruel. The argument can definitely be made that he was not dominant in the way we typically define the word. So your statement was incorrect. I would not push this issue but i do believe it needs to be pushed for the safety of those who lurk and are new.

But what does that do?

"Bad people will misrepresent themselves to you in life."

I guess it bears repeating, sure...but it's as tautological as a moral story gets. There are people who will lie to you. That is a vehicle for abuse too. But, that's a different thing than someone being entirely up front about something and another person choosing to stay with them, even though they don't like it, because of some other odd reason.

I am not necessarily fond of moral stories of "doms" like this because it divorces importance from the issue. If you are a new submissive, do not assume "doms" are any more or less reputable, honest or integrity-bound than any other human sub-populace on the planet.

You will run into weirdos in every avenue of life and the location you run into them at has nothing to do with it.



The point julia was making was that a doormat could run into such a person, with those traits, and find themselves in barrels too. Beyond that, there is no other point. I was intent on pointing out the inaccuracy of your post in regards to jilia's statement about fake doms. newbees do lurk, they do read, and those who seek to abuse can use posts like yours to prove what they intend is sanctioned by others.




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:04:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You are exaggerating again...

There is no such thing as human objectivity...

What's 8 + 2?

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

But even so, you are not even willing to entertain the legal definition of abuse because it does not suit your position... like I said...we can't get there from here

You never answered the question about OK BDSMers being criminals.

I just want to make sure we're being consistent with the presumption that legal definitions are the be-all and end-all of the discussion we're having, by your weighing system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If I were a more jaded person I would think that you were trying to be intentionally  inflammatory in an attempt to make me emotional, you failed if this is your game...

I'm not. And, if objectivity was humanly possible, perhaps it would come to mind that probably every human (myself included) could apply to that hypothetical scenario.

I stayed in a physically aggressive (to me, and in a not-fun way) marriage for 3 years when I was younger. I stayed because my moral structure at the time valued dedication to the relationship as more important than physical and emotional health.

That was my own choice and ultimately my responsibility, not an instance of me being victimized by "abuse".

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Like I posted earlier... the most common cause of death for pregnant women is murder.. women are murdered and threatened with murder or homelessness, or taking their children away from them every day...

That is force. That is coercion. Ergo, that would be abuse (by the definition I've already provided).




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:06:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The point julia was making was that a doormat could run into such a person, with those traits, and find themselves in barrels too. Beyond that, there is no other point. I was intent on pointing out the inaccuracy of your post in regards to jilia's statement about fake doms. newbees do lurk, they do read, and those who seek to abuse can use posts like yours to prove what they intend is sanctioned by others.

And if those newbies are people who have surrendered their critical thinking skills because they are in a new social community, they need better advice than warning about naughty doms.

And, where is the advice to new doms that there may be newbie subs who may profess to want to do something but who may accuse you of abuse when they decide at a later date that they are ashamed at having engaged in the acts they did?




Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:10:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
There is no such thing as human objectivity...

What's 8 + 2?


0, if we're talking about the modulo 10 ring, and if '8' and '2' are integers.

10 +/- 1, if we're talking about real numbers with some amount of "slop".

"Undefined", if the operator '+' has been improperly overloaded.

Throw some axioms at me, first.

But first make sure the axioms you're handing me are being interpreted by me the same way you're interpreting them.

Good luck doing that without pre-existing shared axioms.




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:11:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

0, if we're talking about the modulo 10 ring, and if '8' and '2' are integers.

10 +/- 1, if we're talking about real numbers with some amount of "slop".

"Undefined", if the operator '+' has been improperly overloaded.

Throw some axioms at me, first.

But first make sure the axioms you're handing me are being interpreted by me the same way you're interpreting them.

Good luck doing that without pre-existing shared axioms.

You win.

[8D]




WyldHrt -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:14:04 AM)

quote:


And if those newbies are people who have surrendered their critical thinking skills because they are in a new social community, they need better advice than warning about naughty doms.

And, where is the advice to new doms that there may be newbie subs who may profess to to want to do something but who may accuse you of abuse when they decide at a later date that they are ashamed at having engaged in the acts they did?

This should really be a new thread, perhaps even a sticky or two for new folks on both sides of the kneel.




juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:15:43 AM)

quote:

You never answered the question about OK BDSMers being criminals.

I just want to make sure we're being consistent with the presumption that legal definitions are the be-all and end-all of the discussion we're having, by your weighing system


When a person revokes consent and the other party does not respect their right to do so and harms the other person as a result, that is abuse. It is pretty straightforward.





Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:16:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
You win.


Very well. I claim 65,536 NZ points.




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:17:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

When a person revokes consent and the other party does not respect their right to do so and harms the other person as a result, that is abuse. It is pretty straightforward.

Oklahoma does not legally recognize someone's ability to consent in this fashion.

So, technically every D-type in Oklahoma is legally "not repsecting" Hir s-type(s).




juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:19:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

When a person revokes consent and the other party does not respect their right to do so and harms the other person as a result, that is abuse. It is pretty straightforward.

Oklahoma does not legally recognize someone's ability to consent in this fashion.

So, technically every D-type in Oklahoma is legally "not repsecting" Hir s-type(s).



I just stated my working definition.. reject it if you like... or don't




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:20:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
You win.


Very well. I claim 65,536 NZ points.

I may need a bailout after that.




Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:20:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I just stated my working definition.. reject it if you like... or don't


He's not rejecting your definition, he's pointing out where you yourself can't settle on a consistent definition. If we're going to be rigorous, let's be rigorous.




NihilusZero -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:22:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I just stated my working definition.. reject it if you like... or don't

It's not for me to reject or not. Just clarifying that you do indeed view anyone partaking of any illegal activity in any jurisdiction to be a criminal.

And if you automatically default your own ethical system to legal precedent, then you are right: there is no path for the growth of discussion here. It's just circular reasoning.




Ialdabaoth -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:22:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
quote:


Very well. I claim 65,536 NZ points.

I may need a bailout after that.


Acquire me a thin contortionist submissive who will give herself to be my plaything and trainee for 12 months, whom I find highly attractive, and we'll call it even.




tazzygirl -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 12:39:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The point julia was making was that a doormat could run into such a person, with those traits, and find themselves in barrels too. Beyond that, there is no other point. I was intent on pointing out the inaccuracy of your post in regards to jilia's statement about fake doms. newbees do lurk, they do read, and those who seek to abuse can use posts like yours to prove what they intend is sanctioned by others.

And if those newbies are people who have surrendered their critical thinking skills because they are in a new social community, they need better advice than warning about naughty doms.

And, where is the advice to new doms that there may be newbie subs who may profess to want to do something but who may accuse you of abuse when they decide at a later date that they are ashamed at having engaged in the acts they did?


naughty doms... hmmm... interesting choice of words.

advice to new doms? hmmm... sorta suggests that maybe play dates arent exactly a good idea without knowing each other. should be self evident that this is a high risk. instead of pushing this issue aside, proclaiming that there are no fake doms ( leaves me to believe you would also say there are no fake subs/slaves either) makes it appear that you consider this issue beneath your attention. else, why have you not brought this up yourself? (btw, i have stated just that before. doms leave themselves open for abuse, just in another direction)




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 4:08:17 AM)

Deep Thread
This has been one the deepest threads that I've read in a long time. I read slowly through each and every post. Many of which hit home on many personal levels for me.

I see bits and pieces of my life scattered in posts from different users. I can realate very deeply to the experiences and perspectives people are tossing out. It's painfully clear to me that I'm a strange composition of "when worlds collide". Dilemma, iI can not take one person's side when I can equally relate to the opposing sides. "When worlds collide".

I realize that I'm not the best writter in the world, often my sentences can be more condensed. This post my turn out lengthy.

World Collision

Ialdabaoth and jujuBee's posts both hit home with me deeply. Because as a child I was "abused" by a teenage boy that lived across the street from me. He also went to the same school. It was a central school, that consolidated all grade classes together. Needless to say I became the target victim (doormat) for physical and mental abuse as well as sexual abuse. As in addition, he had attended the same "vacation bible study" program at the local community church, yes something very ugly happen there as well.

My first experiences as a doormat happened when I was around 4-5 years old, all at the hands of 16-17 year old boy. I was not a passive doormat however, I resisted and I developed skills to protect myself. None the less, dispite this, it did not stop the attacks.

"The auditorium"
I still remember being stipped down naked and stuffed into the darkness of the school auditorium. He had taken my clothes, I did not know or realize that they layed 10 feet outside the doors. Alone naked in the dark and crying. For years afterwards I never looked at auditoriums quite the same way that normal people would. None the less, I was stranded in there, then finally working up the courage to peek outside the doors. To see my clothing, then making the decision to B-line for my clothing, scooping it up and going back inside the doors and getting dressed quickly.

when I got to class, I was a literally mess. You see this was not the worse of the attacks I had suffered by this guy, this was the first time it happened at school. A place I had always felt safe. In fact, he caught me trying to avoid him. He caught onto my secret path to class even. Still, none the less. I got into trouble and got sent to the office. I was a mess, and explained what happened to me. Nothing got done to him. In the end it was just one more sweep under the carpet's of many. I was an unprotected Doormat, the target of sexual, mental and physical abuse.

"How bad did it get"
This guys sister used to baby sit me at times, they just lived across the street. My first memory of when the attacks started, was the day she was baby sitting me and she needed to make a quick run to the store for birthday candles. It was her daughters first birthday, and I still remember the cake, it was white with red frosting trim, it was a circular two layer cake. It's a mental image forever burned into my mind, even more so considering I was staring at it later when I was telling her what had happened. She had left me with her brother while she went to the store. He needed to take a shower. Anyways, he took me into the bathroom so he could "keep an eye" on me. Needless to say, He ended up trying to stuff his cock down my throat, I ended up puking all over him, and it pissed him off that I puked on him. Yes, the experience was terrible with him trying to shove his cock down my mouth, when he had his hands on me. I felt helpless.. however, when I puked and how he reacted. I actually sort of broke out in a bit of a laugh. That did not sit well with him. He was bitching and carrying on about how I fucking puked all over him. In a sense, my magically puking powers sort of made me feel slightly empowered. Anyways, I told his sister, and she begged me not to tell. That he'd get into so much trouble. Guess his old man was a piece of shit too. I ratted him out to her. I ratted him out to my grandmother when I got back home. A lot of things got sweep under the carpet, as usual.

Still, this was just the start. There were the times when he held a knife to my throat, threaten to kill my dog and my family. All kinds of crazy mean threats. Then there was the bathroom experience at vacation bible school. He had dragged and trapped in the bathroom, had me face down in the toliet, pants stripped down to my knees, with him trying to fuck me up the ass, and the knife to my throat. I still remember him bitching about how I was too tight, him telling me to loosen up. I squeezed down as tight as I could get. I was resisting as best that I could. Still there was a day, fated when he did capture me one saturday morning. It was like the Devil literally raped me. It tore me a new asshole literally.

I remember being taken to the Doctors, I had had this cover story, because I was scared to death to tell. I made up a story about swallowing penny's and that is what caused the tearing in my poop hole. The Dr. did'nt look at like this, started to question me, and I was starting to get upset, I started to tell what really happened. My Grandmother put it to a hault, told the Dr. he did'nt know what he was talking about. Needless to say, I never saw him again. One the way home, I tried to tell her that it was not the Dr. fault. She did not want to listen to what I had to say. Sweep Sweep Sweep, it away.

A Doormat, that kept getting swept off.

"I Dispise"
If it were not for the TOS, I'm afriad I'd be cussing and swearing at some of you. Do I feel like flamming people at times, you bettcha, i seriously fracking do. If anything, it prokes the sadist urges for me to want to shove the broom stick up some sweep it under the carpet asses. Seriously, I am not nor will be a nice person about this. In fact, I would dare call people bad and foul names. I'll also will have no shame nor no remorse in doing so. There's a limit to how fuck all my mind is open, when it comes to the Topic of what is or is not true abuse. All I gotta say, if you want to sweep it under the carpet, come here, let me show you the fucking meaning of true abuse, perhaps you'll be singing a different tune, after you're pull the boom stick out your ass.

I was a doormat without trying to be a doormat, and even a resistful doormat at best. Some of you people need to look at the word Doormat from other Contexts in which it's intended to be used. I seriously question the IQ's of some people's critical thinking skills.

At the moment, I'm seeing like 3 context's of the word and how it applies, or can apply.

"Social Level Interactions"

In regards to this matter, I can relate to NZ experience as not being so popular in school. In fact, I had to figure out and learn to climb or otherwise deal with the ranks. There is in part a very Geeky side to me, yet a side to me that's rather DomiGuy and there's even a side of me that's a bit like Merc. Multiple Facets of sorts.

Any time saw a group of guts trying to do what was done to Ialdabaoth, I stepped right into the middle of things, even if it was Hazing practices going down. Mind you, this at the risk of becoming a target myself, but seriously I did not give a fuck. I developed a Masoschistic tough side that could deal with it. Plus, I was known for fucking revenge. Hence the Sadistic side of Merc I can relate too. Payback can and will be a bitch. Ethical Sadism. It tend to freak people out, when you're Masochistic and Sadistic, nobody really wants to get into a physical altercation with you.

In regards to paybacks, I'm afraid I took advantage of the School Rules even. Again, I can indentify with Merc in regards to screwing with people by the rules. Let me give you an example; Game of floor hockey in Gym class, had a problem with this one guy who was a well known bully asshole. I was his target for awhile, anyways. We are playing Floor hockey and he's trying to be all slick, pinning down my hockey and other rough illegal jabs. Him and I both were verbally going at it back and fourth. I warned him he'd better back the fuck up. He did'nt. He was being slick about it, doing crap when the couch was not looking. Okay, fine.. I'm gonna play by the rules here and put a real big fucking hurting to him. Teach his ass a fucking lesson. He went to pin down my stick.. and I simply completely let go of the whole damn thing. I planned this out too.. (wicked). The laws of physics works extremely well. All the force he had devoted to forcing the end of my stick down turned against him. WACK!! my stick literally snapped against his and right across his fucking nuckles. MAN was he pissed, jumping the fuck up and down.. holding onto his nuckles.. he was hurting extremely bad.

I was standing there fucking laughing and I truely truely enjoyed and got off from feeling his pain. My wicked Sadistic plan worked like a charm. I take pride in things, when a well thought out plan comes together. I stood there openly admitting that I had lost grip of my stick, I did not tell the couch I had planned it out ahead of time. He got into trouble because if he had not been doing what he was doing, it would have never happened in the first place. Me, I played by the rules and did not get in trouble with the couch. However, I had planned this shit out in my head. Since when can you hold somebody responsible when they just lost grip of their hockey stick? I'll unethically play by a set of ethical rules, should it be in my own best interests. At times some of us Doormats, will trip you up literally and make you fall on your face. That's perhaps one of the best things about being a Doormat, is that people don't see it coming until it too fucking late.

People tend to walk around you instead on on you, also take care in making certain their shoe laces are tied. Never under estimate what a Doormat can do. (wicked evil grin).

Actaully, it can be rather entertaining to play the role of a doormat, to see how far somebody will go. Little do they know they are being setup, and in the process are revealing more of their true nature in the process.

I really did not take pleasure in tortmenting the Geeky poeple or social misfits at school. Some of my best and better friends were such. Yet at the same time, I had a rather DomiGuy (blue collar) thing about me. Sure, I was out partying on the weekends in my teenage years. In fact, I have discovered the path of Rock-n-Roll. It was 6th grade when I made up my mind that I wanted to play guitar, mind you for more reasons besides music and music alone. I had in part a Social Agenda in mind. Climbing my way through the ranks of school bullshit socialization. In part, I was sort of a Geeky misfit myself. Not to mention the fact, that when I moved down south, I was branded a Yankee and I had to deal with some redneck motherfuckers wanting a piece of me. Again, the Doormat target of Popular games such as Smear the Queer. Being at the bottom with 10-15 kids piled on top of me. I still remember this one day. It was a special day, when I ended up giving a notorious bully a bloody nose, In a single moment my reputation changed in a heart beat. All those other kids that he had bullied, they all were praising me. I thought the world gone mad. Since when do people condone violence? I got in trouble for it, but I was well rather happy and smiling inside. Took my paddle licks in the princpals offices. This was back in the day, when kids got paddled and such at school. Then again, it helps to be a masochist, the paddle licks ain't worth a shit.

Doormats
This truely is a fun and interesting topic, because I have been a doormat myself. I've also been the kind of doormat that will let somebody walk on them for a bit, until I figure out what they are up to, then trip them up in a single instance to watch them fall face down in the ground. You'd look down at me, and see a great big smiley face. A Happy doormat. Nice to be walked around instead on upon.

I've gone out of my way to stop bullies and such from using people as doormats. People that enjoy using other people in bad ways really provoke a yummy sadistic streak inside of me. Make no mistake, I know the origins and creations of the sadist inside of me. I had to grow up with it, learned to control it and deal with it. A lot of dark urges. Stuff that got combined with sexual thoughts too. The only people that get the pleasure in seeing my inner sadistic sides, are those that wish to see it. The Masochistic people who want to play, and those Bullies or Doormat walkers that love to use and abuse people for real. At times it does spring up here and there.

I try to cause nobody any true harm, when I do cause anybody any harm, I'm playing by the rules and have some form of ethical application to what it is I'm doing.

I have been in a Doormat realtionship before, much like NZ was. Where I was held in check to some moral Idealism I had, where I myself suffered for the sake of moral values. It's a bad and costly mistake for anybody to make. One to which I have to hold myself equally acountable for as well as her. So I was a Doormat because I was a prisoner to my own moral codes. I was a Doormat, and I'm happy to admit that I was.

I'm a little shocked and stunned, that only submissives get the title of being True Doormats. I feel a little chip and jaded and robbed here. I'm sort of pondering some musing thoughts. There are times when I myself enjoy being a Doormat, Whooops... you'd better catch your fall. Then again, this is well sort of Merc like in nature.

I can't begin to bang out the full range of wealth of my own human experiences to do justice to such a topic as this. These are just my own experiences and not some text book theory, and all kinds of ripping apart of subjective labels.

A comment was made, about how it's best to keep our own experiences out of this Debate, yeah, right!! I think human experiences count more for reality compared to fiction.

There's parts of me that are like NZ, Merc, Ialdabaoth, tazzygirl, jujuBee, and other posters. All these Worlds on Collision in a thread such as this or the other threads realated to this thread. I'm sort of fuck all stuck in the middle, because the of reality of my own life experiences. Things that has shaped me.




juliaoceania -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 6:02:48 AM)

Wonderful raw and open post  whiplash...

I was bullied in grade school too. I learned how to accept abuse not from my family, but from society at large. The first day I went back to school after my father died a group of kids made fun of his death... I was forced to go to this school because they threatened my mother that if she did not make me go, they would take me from her.. she just lost her husband, now they were threatening her with taking her child too. This to me is legal bullying on many levels.... I was bullied there, learned to be a doormat at school, a place I had no choice but to go.. by law. My mom was forced to send me there, by law.

I developed a rather substantial chip on my shoulder after that... through high school no one screwed with me because I wouldn't let em in to. I had a giant "kick me" sign on my back, and I involved myself in a few abusive relationships... that ended when I was 22 and left my ex husband. I just stayed alone rather than teach my son how to be in bad relationships...

I suppose it has taken my current relationship to completely set me free from being bullied and abused on any level. He paid for me to take self defense classes that taught how to make boundaries.. and people with healthy boundaries are less likely to be abused or be doormats... he didn't want me to be a doormat.

You bring up an interesting point... you brought up being both the abused and the abuser... both the doormat and the bully. Both the sadist and the masochist. I think it is interesting because doormats can become abusers... getting even with the world for the way they have been harmed. In high school I could have easily went that direction, but didn't.... even though I was completely enraged at how some at my school treated me...

That was a personal, yet important narrative you gave us, thank you.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: If You Love Your Doormat... (2/26/2010 6:50:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You bring up an interesting point... you brought up being both the abused and the abuser... both the doormat and the bully. Both the sadist and the masochist. I think it is interesting because doormats can become abusers... getting even with the world for the way they have been harmed. In high school I could have easily went that direction, but didn't.... even though I was completely enraged at how some at my school treated me...

That was a personal, yet important narrative you gave us, thank you.


This is somewhat confusing issue, because in essense I was the dude that fucked with the Bullies, and got off on it. Sort of gave them what they had coming. Did I sincerey enjoy this? You bettcha I did. Their pain was my pleasure, their suffering was my pleasure. Did I even fuck with some of their Lockers and pull sadistic phranks on them? You bettcha I did. Did I feel morally in the wrong, well no not really. Perhaps this becomes an issue regarding a contradiction of morals or ethics. There's a Hippy Liberism love side to me, there's a side of me that when provoked is in contrast, put it this way.. I some cases I would love to sit back and eat pop corn while watching some people get executed. (sounds sick doesnt it?) Yet, at the same time I'm in the don't cause other people any true harm camp. So there appears to be a contridiction.

In regards to S&M play, I've always been extremely ethical about this. I only engage it in with somebody that's into it. It's not a requirement of mine for a relationship. It's rather optional for me. Mind you, I still enjoy playing rough (S&M light beer) and this has always been the case.




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