RE: The Left Hand of Slavery (Full Version)

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DiannaVesta -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery (4/2/2006 9:05:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneX2

Actually through much of history the left hand was said to be that of the rogue. To belong to the traveler who went his own way. The Right hand is the path that every one takes. It is the Christian path. That is way we have these bizarre ideas that the left is bad. We have no rational reason for it. It is simply what we have been told and remember, with out really knowing why. The path is the path of mystery and myth. Joseph Campbell speaks much of the left handed path. He is a person every one should at least be familiar with.

Joseph



I think it can be a very good tool for relaxation and highly erotic if done responsibly. I would love to hear your views on the subject.




DiannaVesta -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Using Post Hypnotic Suggestion (4/2/2006 9:10:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneX2

I have gotten asked how I might use hypnosis in a bdsm way. Here is an example from my blog. I look forward to hearing what people think with this.

Creating The Posthypnotic itch is like getting a new toy. Ever thought about sex and really wanted it? Imagine that through out the day there is a thought of sex entering your mind. Popping in and out, with every thing you do. Every thought adds to a feeling of heat in your pussy. Every time your pussy gets hotter there is a feeling like an itch that gets more pronounced. As you move around  around, it is as if you can't scratch it.

You need to perform and service for it to go away. You can feel the heat distracting you, and can look down to notice, you are dripping, ready. You can feel the itch growing all over your body... A constant reminder that you need to be touched. 

How responsive would you be begging at my feet? Can you imagine how much more intense every sensation would be now.. That is one of the suggestions I enjoy giving to a slave.. I am curious to how many of you this appeals to? Of course having it conditioned with an on and off makes it even more Mmmmmm.. do able.

Joseph




This sound more like guided mediation then hypnosis. Then again maybe they are closely related. I often use the sound of my voice and very descriptive about sensation, sounds, etc. to bring a sub deeper into submission. It works great.  




mantis65 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery (4/2/2006 9:19:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneX2

Actually through much of history the left hand was said to be that of the rogue. To belong to the traveler who went his own way. The Right hand is the path that every one takes. It is the Christian path. That is way we have these bizarre ideas that the left is bad. We have no rational reason for it. It is simply what we have been told and remember, with out really knowing why. The path is the path of mystery and myth. Joseph Campbell speaks much of the left handed path. He is a person every one should at least be familiar with.

Joseph



yes




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-tailoring a session (4/2/2006 9:57:38 AM)

Lets do something a little different as I explain. I'll share an out line of what we could do if your were to enjoy this. First there is a few questions I would need to ask you, and if you don't feel comfortable revealing them in public or in private that is fine. I don't wish to crowd any one.

I would ask you what aspects of serving another do you really enjoy?
What happens to you physically (all 5 senses), mentally, emotionally when you know you are pleasing your Master in such a way that you feel him light up?
How do you know your doing a good job at what ever task is asked of you?( This may sound simple but go over it in your mind. What is the first thing you notice and the next.)

What does it mean to you to be a slave/sub?
What does it mean to you to be a woman?
What makes life totally worth living and lights you up?
What would make this even better for you?
If it was even a better how would you know?
What is the first thing you would notice?

What is something you may have had difficulty doing or submitting to in the past?
What do you really enjoy to feel, hear, know, during a scene?

I now some of this is very basic and some is personal but I don't know you, and you do not yet know the person I am. Here we begin to make that connection and see just a little bit if what is realized makes a foundation of thought and feeling that it will motivate and touch positively the rest of your life. I believe at all times a slave represents herself as the temple of her submission.

This maybe more than you bargained for, and I invite your joyful and comfortable participation.

Joseph




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Using Post Hypnotic Suggestion (4/2/2006 10:02:28 AM)

It can be like a guided med. in many ways. The post here is not a script for a session. I rewrote it slightly to fit more clearly here, and to remove repetitions. It can certainly stir up much simply by reading it in this form, can it not? I wonder what experiences you have had, that have left you with such a curious impression.

Joseph




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery (4/2/2006 10:06:17 AM)

Are you familiar with Campbell? I am also a big fan of B movies. I read your profile:> I almost went into special effects right when I got out of high school for it. I ended up in another direction, but still love to play.

Joseph




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Kegals (4/2/2006 7:47:43 PM)

I am wondering how many men and woman do kegal exercises? I made this part of my routine and my slaves training. It helps with extending orgasms with men and women, and I enjoy feeling those muscles being tensed when I am inside them. Does any one else do this or use this in their own training?

Joseph




BitaTruble -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-tailoring a session (4/2/2006 7:58:36 PM)

quote:

I believe at all times a slave represents herself as the temple of her submission.

This maybe more than you bargained for, and I invite your joyful and comfortable participation.

Joseph



You might want to read Dianna's profile before you make assumptions about the level of her 'slavery'. ::chuckles::

Celeste




ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/2/2006 8:38:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

What is NLP?


*sighs and prepares to be flamed*

NLP is short for neurolinguistic programming. It is a set of techniques that supposedly alters behavior. It's pretty much a New Age psuedoscientific replacement for real counseling. (Not to say I'm pleased with the current state of psychiatry, psychology and philosophy of the mind, however at least those are based in "reality".) It shares a lot in common with Scientology and other "New Age" or "alternative" counseling techniques. For example, NLP believes in the null hypothesis (or engram theory), which is that the human mind is programmable and that the norm is negative coding.

NLP is largely concerned with making behavioral models to follow and with reframing (which is redirecting the root urges that drive negative behaviors). It denies an objective reality, insisting our expereince/knowledge of the world is based on our mapping/modeling (hence the emphesis on behavioral models to follow). I am grossly oversimplifying the issue and would recommend you check out Wikipedia and some other resources if you want a greater understanding.

Regardless, it's pap. In studies comparing NLP vs. untreated people, the results widely vary from NLP doing moderately better that nothing to NLP doing signficantly worse than nothing. In studies comparing NLP to traditional counseling, NLP performs very poorly in comparison. Additionally, and notably, according to one study NLP comapres poorly with untrained co-counseling. (Co-counseling is barely more than you and another person (preferrably same temperment/differant issues, or same issues/differant temperment) sit down and talk about each others' problems. Another oversimplification, to be honest.)

Interestingly, one thing they uncovered in studies is people with acute mental illnesses often report solid improvement under NLP while exhibiting worsening symptoms. NLP says the "objective" view that they are worse is false because there is no objective POV and their subjective view is correct. NLP bothers me deeply because of their attempts to defend obvious evidence of negative effects for at least a significant minority of people whop engage in it. You know, the kind of doublespeak for which Scientology is famous.

*meow*




ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/2/2006 8:51:23 PM)

quote:

NLP is modeled from Milton Erickson. He was a amazing Hypnotist who took on many tough and interesting cases. There are many reasons why it may not have happened when you tried. You may also have the misconception that being comfortable in hypnosis means a black out.


Um, I'm beginning to wonder how much you even actually know about NLP. The metamodel (part of NLP's practice basis) is not based on Erickson's hypnosis work. Only the Milton Model is based on his work, which while fundemental to NLP practice is only a part among many others. Grinder and Bandler drew on numerous other sources for it besides Erickson's work. And even then, they threw out chunks of baby with bathwater because a number of Erickson's beliefs are at odds with NLP. Mainly G&B drew upon Dr. Erickson's linguistic patterns in using hynosis. Hence why the Milton Model is really barely more than being "artfully vague". (That is, when helping a drunkard saying "you will stop drinking" is less effective than stating "you could be a non-drinker".)

Regardless, your assertion speaks poorly of your sources and broader knowledge of the subject.

*meow*




ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/2/2006 9:31:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

Thank you! You are the first one who actually saw what I did and it gives me major creeps. So far, everyone else has played up to this dude. He scares me. Honestly he does...read back and see how eager he is to ask other subs/slaves for them to "share with him". He sounds like someone who is just too eager to try to get into someone's  mind one way or another.

And that "create a race of peasants" thing just makes me want to run!


Sounds to me like you've a fair dose of sense!

*meow*




ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-tailoring a session (4/2/2006 9:34:55 PM)

quote:

I would ask you what aspects of serving another do you really enjoy?
What happens to you physically (all 5 senses), mentally, emotionally when you know you are pleasing your Master in such a way that you feel him light up?
How do you know your doing a good job at what ever task is asked of you?( This may sound simple but go over it in your mind. What is the first thing you notice and the next.)

What does it mean to you to be a slave/sub?


*pees himself with laughter*

*gets a new pair of pants*

Now that I got that out of my system, I'd suggest you actually bother to read profiles before making a more complete ass of yourself.

You are asking quite the wrong questions to the wrong person.

*meow*




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-tailoring a session (4/3/2006 9:26:17 AM)

You got me there. I was replying quick to every one, and I didn't not go to check out Dianna's profile until after I have posted. My bad! I hope she will still consider it, even if it is not the exact question for her. Thanks for the polite poke!:>

Joseph




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Using Post Hypnotic Suggestion (4/3/2006 9:31:21 AM)


Dianna, my apologies for not checking your profile. I did not fit my questions perfectly to you, and if you would still like to see what happens that's great. If not, I totally understand, and I hope you'll take no offense to my getting use to the urge to speed through this electronic medium. It makes this to easy to rush through when you have a minute.
 
I look forward to your response.
 
Joseph
 




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/3/2006 9:40:12 AM)

Actually I welcome the chance to speak with any one who has done the research that you have done. Just as you have I have over simplified. I am wondering where you have got your lit on for this? I don't want to argue on opinion as I have seen many other studies and stats. I do agree with most of what you have said. I just don't believe there will ever be a therapy that will fit 100% of the people.

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Joseph




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Nlp revisited (4/3/2006 10:06:48 AM)

Revisiting the question of NLP. I have found the one of the Co-creators of this field answers to these very same questions.


Bandler’s Responses to Critics in FAQ form

 What is NLP™?
Neuro-Linguistic Programming™ is "The Study of the Structure of Subjective Experience and what can be calculated from it."

What is NLP™ technology?
NLP™ is based on finding out what works and formalizing it. In order to formalize patterns I utilized everything from linguistics to holography. I didn't just elicit peoples' strategies since when I started out there weren't any strategies, yet. I invented them. Strategies are a model. A strategy is just that, a strategy.
I think it is important for people to make a distinction between a model and a technique.
A model (like Strategies, Submodalities, Anchoring, Transderivational Search, Chaining States, the Meta Model™, Meta Programs, Semantic Primes, Semantic Density, etc.) will allow you to create new techniques. The techniques generated from these models are techniques, nothing more. When people discover what someone they consider to be a genius or expert does inside their head in order to perform a task exceptionally well using the models of NLP™, what they've discovered is not a new model. It is a strategy. The sequencing of various aspects of the models that constitute NLP™ in order to change someone's internal representations is called a technique.

A model is a formal representation of behavior that allows prediction. Models are most commonly used in physics, e.g., in order to predict the rate of distribution of one liquid within another as well as how much movement the added liquid will have if poured from 2 inches above a beaker with a 2 inch diameter.

The models that constitute NLP™ are all formal models based on mathematical, logical principles such as predicate calculus and the mathematical equations underlying holography. Furthermore, all of these models are generative, e.g., when challenging one Meta Model™ distinction, the answer will always be a surface structure containing further Meta-Model™ distinctions. They are also recursive, i.e., the model can be applied to itself, e.g., you can use the Milton Model in order to define and utilize the distinctions described in The Hypnotic Patterns of Milton H. Erickson, M.D., Vol. 1 in order to understand how the book uses the principles described therein in order to teach them, i.e. it defines itself.

These distinctions will help people understand the difference between what a model and a technique is.

How are the NLP™ building blocks such as calibration techniques, patterns in the language someone uses, predicates and Meta Model™, eye movements and Submodalities, other analytical models such as Logical levels, Meta-programs, perceptual positions, timeframes, etc. used to observe experts?
These tools were not developed in order to observe experts. They were discovered by observing experts. They were developed in order to further evolve human consciousness to the point that people could replicate skills and have deliberate control over their own consciousness. Nothing in NLP™ is analytical. It is all designed to be applied. If you do not know how to apply something that you learn as "NLP™" then, it is either not NLP™ or you have a bad teacher. I think the best example of this misunderstanding is Meta-Programs. I've had people tell me that someone is a visual who sorts towards. That can't be true because if you ask a person to make a picture of themselves brushing their teeth with a toothbrush they just wiped their behind with, they probably won't move towards that. Most of you would probably say, "Yuck!" and move away from doing that. (If you behave in the previously described manner. STOP IT! It's not a good idea.)


Meta Programs describe how people sort through multiple generalizations. As such, they will tell you what lies inside and what lies outside of someone's generalizations about things like doors. When someone says, "Stupid door!", that gives you a pretty good idea about what lies outside their generalizations about what doors "are". If you then ask them how they know the door is "stupid", they'll give you an answer that will identify their "sorting style", i.e., "There's no knob," meaning that it can only be a not-stupid-door if it has a knob. If what they want is to be able to open more kinds of doors, then you have to teach them to sort for things other than just a knob in order to identify a door. That's how Meta-Programs work. They don't just describe someone diagnostically. They give you something to do.


NLP™ consists of models. By applying these models one can generate techniques. The models are patterns. As such, they will be true 100% of the time. That is why statistics don't apply.
What can I do with NLP™?
There are many areas in which NLP™ has been utilized. Whatever your profession is, you can use NLP™ to build on whatever it is you are already doing.

Isn't NLP™ mainly used for therapy and that's where the procedures came from?
I have never once called anything I do a "procedure". I call them techniques or exercises. It's important to emphasize that NLP™ is an educational tool, not a form of therapy. We don't do therapy. We teach people some things about how their brains function and they use this information in order to change.

What are the best products and applications for business?
I have no idea what some of these products are. Once again, I think it is important for people to understand the distinction between a model and a technique. To use "products" also seems slightly misleading as I personally have used more of these simple things in business environments. I have used everything from strategies and anchoring to the Meta Model™ and Milton Model. Understanding board meetings seems to me to be the same as understanding how a family functions. I've done things like change where people sit at a table and change the outcome of the meeting.

What about enhancing creativity?
I think the more you want to become more and more creative you have to not only elicit other peoples' (plural) strategies and replicate them yourself, but also modify others' strategies and have a strategy that creates new creativity strategies based on as many wonderful states as you can design for yourself. Therefore, in a way, the entire field of NLP™ is a creative tool, because I wanted to create something new

What about learning strategies?
Which learning strategies are useful in which contexts? What if we design new, more intense states and used those as the basis upon which we learn? All the models and techniques can be of use in many areas or professions. None of these areas are different from one another once you denominalize the words, i.e. "therapy, creativity, learning, business."

What are the roots of NLP™?
Any references to the early work can be found in the bibliography to The Structure of Magic Vol. I.
These refer to some of the research that I used to develop NLP™. Reading these books with a knowledge of what NLP™ is will show that they had something but didn't know what, yet. I took a few things from these and other places and formalized them into models which I apply. I would highly recommend reading those texts referred to the bibliography of The Structure of Magic Vol. I.
Sometimes it seems that NLPers ask stupid questions and the reason why NLPer's seem to ask stupid questions is because The Structure of Magic Vol. I is written backwards and doesn't tell you how to use the Meta Model™ in order to go somewhere. That's because it was a model of how therapists asked questions. Try reading chapter 4 from the last distinction to the first. That is the proper order.


What motivates Richard Bandler to continue to do the work that he does?
 
RB: People have forgotten that the reason I do this and the reason that most of the people I work with do this is because it feels right. It's not because we couldn't make money doing something else, but that it feels really right. We designed our training to make it so that you're not flying by the seat of your pants and when you are flying by the seat of your pants, you'll know what to do about it.
I have seen people who have come into my trainings who have been "rigorously trained by other people" and they don't even make it through the first sentence in the right direction. They don't watch, they don't listen, and they don't know how to get things amplified to know how easy it is to know what to do. They are not taught by these trainers that you can't do this work without being first concerned with your own internal state.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to stay within a more conversational frame work as we are discussing this. This is still a hot button topic to many people and critics. I say look into it all, and there are many sources out there. I believe looking at the negative in our behavior and life is necessary, but it should not be focused on. How many of us would have learn to walk if the focus was on mistakes, and we were punished every time we fell? It is much more effective to focus on your successes.

Joseph





Chaingang -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/3/2006 11:42:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
*sighs and prepares to be flamed*


Well, I might have flamed you for being a Libertarian but not for actually bringing some much needed knowledge to this rather hilarious thread. For those still not getting it, here's more at Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

Good bits:
...
Ethical concerns of NLP’s encouragement towards manipulation have been raised. As such, NLP is seen as encouraging people to find more ways to manipulate individuals against their will within seduction, sales and business settings. NLP book titles include "The Unfair Advantage in Sales" and "The Science and Technology of Getting What You Want" and “Get Anyone to Do Anything”.
...
NLP has also been described as a "commercial cult", and has been criticised within the business sector for being coercive, including undue and forced adoption of fundamental beliefs and intense confrontational psychological techniques, tantamount to forced religious conversion [230]. Its various forms, such as those promoted by Grinder, and Tony Robbins are said to be ill conceived and coercive in some business settings
...

So yeah, many of the concerns raised here seem more than justified. ArtCatDom has done a good job of redacting the info into a small easily digested version.




OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/3/2006 11:57:59 AM)

Well said. Used well this can be powerful stuff. That is exactly why it is used and has an appeal to many people. The intent is up to each person who uses it.

Joseph




MsIncognito -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/3/2006 12:22:32 PM)

quote:

a light to medium state is about feeling a profound relaxation


So it's kinda like being stoned?




MsIncognito -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/3/2006 12:26:41 PM)

You are certainly rather vocal. I'm assuming because you are somehow qualified to speak on this subject as one who has "real" training in that field? If so, please refute what he is saying rather than just trying to stir up acrimony. Personally, I think the guy is funny as hell [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman
Sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but no one with any real training in that field, or licensed in that field, would even attempt to "get around it". This man has clearly stated in his profile that any "slave" he might snare must be willing to be hynotized, and then went on to say in his profile that he "seeks to create a race of peasants that he can rule over."

Obviously, some of you think that is just fine....but I don't and never will give him the nod on that.





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