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RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 11:50:13 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

under a NWO there is no "leaving" it. 


So you are saying that the community that this pub owner lives in has no right to make standards for the public health... should he be allowed to keep a nasty kitchen? Should he be allowed to serve steak that is so old it makes someone sick? What should we do with people that flout the public health and will not agree to abide by the law? Just let them?




people can and do shop elsewhere.  so sure why not.



So people can sell whatever toxic shit they like and call it wholesome? They can sell arsenic as vitamin C and that would be okay with you because when people noticed their hair falling out they could just buy something else... what a load of irrational horseshit




China does this- corporations do this and we can not put them in jail.   The globalization thing is fraught with poisons.  You likely even ate GMO mansannto franken foods today.

You dont seem to get it.

Laws only apply to the little people.   Not the big boys.   Therefore we no longer need any type of laws.  They serve at the pleasure of the elite only.  Not for our benefit.

You settle from crumbs that drop from the table when you get smoke free.
when you could own the whole kitchen.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 11:50:39 AM   
susie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

And while we're jailing folks for smoking, why not for posting on kink sites?


Thats the point though, he was not jailed for smoking. He was found guilty of allowing others to smoke on his premises which were not private but a public house. He was fined but chose not to pay the fine despite many attempts to get him to do so. So he was jailed for not paying his fine. The same thing would happen in the UK if you do not pay a speeding fine or parking fines.

As he went to court on numerous occasion it was obviously his choice to go to jail.

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 11:50:59 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
The thing that always made me laugh about the smoking ban was the people protesting about it. These were exactly the same bunch of wankers by and large, who are rabidly opposed to any kind of minority rights, yet they didn't seem to have noticed that a lot more people don't smoke than do.

Yep total hypocrisy, I find hypocrisy to be one of the worst human qualities.

I think the other aspect here is that after the smoking ban was imposed a record number of people quit and that means less NHS's resources will be going towards people bringing health problems upon themselves. We could say the same about obesity perhaps, I see this report the other month about how much that is costing in terms of special ambulances, king sized hospital beds etc.

You don't want to be telling people how healthy they should be but on the other hand you want to ensure the care they get is equivalent to everyone else and that never will be the case if they have to wait longer for special facilities because they are the exception to the rule. Prevention is better than cure, when did we stop thinking this?


That's related to another argument that smokers like to come out with that's complete and utter bullshit,: this daft notion that they've paid for any medical care they need through taxes on the fags. No they haven't. Cigarettes would have to be a hell of a lot more expensive to even pay for a tracheotomy, never mind anything more elaborate. Fortunately for them, that isn't how evil and authoritarian systems of socialised medicine that erode people's freedom work, so they still get the care they need.

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RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 11:52:41 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

And while we're jailing folks for smoking, why not for posting on kink sites?


Thats the point though, he was not jailed for smoking. He was found guilty of allowing others to smoke on his premises which were not private but a public house. He was fined but chose not to pay the fine despite many attempts to get him to do so. So he was jailed for not paying his fine. The same thing would happen in the UK if you do not pay a speeding fine or parking fines.

As he went to court on numerous occasion it was obviously his choice to go to jail.



then this is a slide from civil law to criminal law.   what happens when the NWO instates napoleonic law?  it is bad enough for are under UCC maritime law.

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 11:58:32 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

And while we're jailing folks for smoking, why not for posting on kink sites?


Thats the point though, he was not jailed for smoking. He was found guilty of allowing others to smoke on his premises which were not private but a public house. He was fined but chose not to pay the fine despite many attempts to get him to do so. So he was jailed for not paying his fine. The same thing would happen in the UK if you do not pay a speeding fine or parking fines.

As he went to court on numerous occasion it was obviously his choice to go to jail.



then this is a slide from civil law to criminal law.   what happens when the NWO instates napoleonic law?  it is bad enough for are under UCC maritime law.


Who did you vote for during that election back in 2008, pray tell?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:03:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

China does this- corporations do this and we can not put them in jail. The globalization thing is fraught with poisons. You likely even ate GMO mansannto franken foods today.

You dont seem to get it.

Laws only apply to the little people. Not the big boys. Therefore we no longer need any type of laws. They serve at the pleasure of the elite only. Not for our benefit.

You settle from crumbs that drop from the table when you get smoke free.
when you could own the whole kitchen.


I do get it, if they wanted to sell me arsenic as Vitamin C you would see nothing wrong with that... buyer beware....

I agree that we need more laws to regulate these fuckers that would seek to harm our health... not less laws as you are advocating


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:06:30 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

China does this- corporations do this and we can not put them in jail. The globalization thing is fraught with poisons. You likely even ate GMO mansannto franken foods today.

You dont seem to get it.

Laws only apply to the little people. Not the big boys. Therefore we no longer need any type of laws. They serve at the pleasure of the elite only. Not for our benefit.

You settle from crumbs that drop from the table when you get smoke free.
when you could own the whole kitchen.


I do get it, if they wanted to sell me arsenic as Vitamin C you would see nothing wrong with that... buyer beware....

I agree that we need more laws to regulate these fuckers that would seek to harm our health... not less laws as you are advocating




the laws only apply to the little people.   not the big boys.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:07:45 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

And while we're jailing folks for smoking, why not for posting on kink sites?


Thats the point though, he was not jailed for smoking. He was found guilty of allowing others to smoke on his premises which were not private but a public house. He was fined but chose not to pay the fine despite many attempts to get him to do so. So he was jailed for not paying his fine. The same thing would happen in the UK if you do not pay a speeding fine or parking fines.

As he went to court on numerous occasion it was obviously his choice to go to jail.



then this is a slide from civil law to criminal law.   what happens when the NWO instates napoleonic law?  it is bad enough for are under UCC maritime law.


Who did you vote for during that election back in 2008, pray tell?


Ron Paul.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:18:15 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Really? I thought you were still on your medication back then...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:24:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

the laws only apply to the little people. not the big boys.


Your solution wouldn't stop that...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:37:38 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

I am glad I quit smoking. It was much easier than I thought it would be. And I have to say that I think smoking should be illegal because we are paying those bastards to poison us to death when we smoke cigarettes.


I have to disagree with you here, Brain -- unless they're holding a gun to your head to get you to go out and buy and smoke the cigs, it is a conscious choice. As a former smoker who lives with a current smoker, I had to pull on my big-girl panties and decide that I didn't want to smoke any more -- and you know, nobody from the Tobacco Industry came by the house and fined me or beat me with a wet noodle when I decided I was going to quit -- so this argument is completely bogus.

I, on the other hand, think that the government should keep its nose out of what other people are doing with their bodies, and concentrate on figuring out how to limit their intrusion to keeping our borders policed, assuring the right of freedom for every American, disciplining people who use their freedom to harm another person and/or destroy another's property, and keeping big business from eating us alive. *shrugs*

_____________________________

***
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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:38:54 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

the laws only apply to the little people. not the big boys.


Your solution wouldn't stop that...



the thing is- what works in one locale may or may not work in another locale.   all politics is local.  I support local control.  

maybe they need to slam people in jail over in UK- but we do not here.  not for this.

the infraction is civil-- (IMO) not criminal.   we very much have to be careful as to what we allow any govt to do.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:45:29 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

I am glad I quit smoking. It was much easier than I thought it would be. And I have to say that I think smoking should be illegal because we are paying those bastards to poison us to death when we smoke cigarettes.


I have to disagree with you here, Brain -- unless they're holding a gun to your head to get you to go out and buy and smoke the cigs, it is a conscious choice. As a former smoker who lives with a current smoker, I had to pull on my big-girl panties and decide that I didn't want to smoke any more -- and you know, nobody from the Tobacco Industry came by the house and fined me or beat me with a wet noodle when I decided I was going to quit -- so this argument is completely bogus.

I, on the other hand, think that the government should keep its nose out of what other people are doing with their bodies, and concentrate on figuring out how to limit their intrusion to keeping our borders policed, assuring the right of freedom for every American, disciplining people who use their freedom to harm another person and/or destroy another's property, and keeping big business from eating us alive. *shrugs*

Maybe, but I don't see why being able to come home from an evening in a pub not smelling like an ashtray is a terrible infringement of somebody's civil liberties. It's not like anybody pulls a bin liner over their head and sticks a rubber band around their neck to provide an airtight seal before starting, is it?
You're dead right that what people do to themselves is nobody else's business. Sadly smoking doesn't have an effect only on the person doing it, so it appears to be fair game. The Mail are, of course, slanting the whole story as "Brown locks up smoker for smoking" but as several people have already pointed out, that isn't really how it happened. Are people who refuse point blank to pay fines not locked up in the 'States?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:45:32 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I have to disagree with you here, Brain -- unless they're holding a gun to your head to get you to go out and buy and smoke the cigs, it is a conscious choice.



Do children of smokers get a choice?

For that matter, does society get a choice paying higher insurance premiums for smokers?

quote:

as a former smoker who lives with a current smoker, I had to pull on my big-girl panties and decide that I didn't want to smoke any more -- and you know, nobody from the Tobacco Industry came by the house and fined me or beat me with a wet noodle when I decided I was going to quit -- so this argument is completely bogus.


As a former smoker that realizes how cigarette companies get customers, influencing them to smoke before reaching adulthood, well no, they don't come to your door beating you up for quitting, but they sure as hell had a hand in getting you to start in the first place.

quote:

I, on the other hand, think that the government should keep its nose out of what other people are doing with their bodies, and concentrate on figuring out how to limit their intrusion to keeping our borders policed, assuring the right of freedom for every American, disciplining people who use their freedom to harm another person and/or destroy another's property, and keeping big business from eating us alive. *shrugs*


Smoking is harmful to other people's persons and property. When I came back from Las Vegas I had to throw away a leather purse because of the stink embedded in it. I live in a building that is over 100 years old that has a connected ventilation system... the smell of stinky ciggies comes into my bathroom, and my closet is next to that... infecting my belongings...

Just because you choose to live with a smoker doesn't mean we all choose by default to accept this habit that makes us stink, ruins our belongings, and most significantly, harms our health


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:50:30 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do get it, if they wanted to sell me arsenic as Vitamin C you would see nothing wrong with that... buyer beware....

I agree that we need more laws to regulate these fuckers that would seek to harm our health... not less laws as you are advocating



(I apologize in advance for the rant -- I just lost my right to milk produced by my own goat by the Texas government after they declared my boarding/tending/milking arrangement to be an "animal share" and illegal in TX, because I have them bred and milked out on a farm, and I live in the city!!!)

I don't think anyone here is advocating that companies that practice bad business should get away scot free --- in fact, I advocate dissolving the "corporate person", so that individuals who own shares in a company that damages other people or property with its business practices are liable for the penalties therein.

However, I -don't- think the government should have any say in what I put in my body when and where... PERIOD. If I want to drink raw milk, that is illegal in most states in the US -- how ridiculous is that? When I was growing up, I worked on a dairy farm and drank raw cows milk every single day for nearly 15 years. Now, in order to be able to live running a dairy and sell one's milk, the government seals up the farmer's tanks and requires that they milk by machine, so that the milk has to go to the processor and the farmer has to buy it back at RETAIL to get the milk that they produce themselves. What kind of crap is that?

My body is mine. If I want to trash it, that's my business. It only becomes the government's business if I trash myself in a way that damages someone ELSE or someone else's property (like drinking and driving).

While, in general, I have been in favor of single-payer insurance, I have to admit that one of my concerns, seeing the willingness of our government to cast away individual freedoms as soon as some special-interest group leans hard enough on them, is that single-payer insurance would become an excuse to legislate every single action that we take -- and then what are we but government puppets? If I have to sacrifice single-payer insurance (or -any- insurance) to keep my freedom about how I choose to heal myself or treat myself, I'm all good with that.

Of course, we know I'm a renegade, so I'll just keep my own counsel, and find my own Coventry, should the Regulation Nation get its way and regulate us into perfectly controlled little carbon copies of each other.




_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:50:50 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		so you can not pay a fine in the US and not get further shit ??
theres no come back if you dont pay a court appointed fine or appear in court if ordered??
ya right
not talking about smoking per se, as I am an ex smoker now(six months) but I still think the guy shouldnt get jail, but in reality, he didnt  pay a fine, showed contempt for court, he isnt gonna get way from it.



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RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:56:03 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

As a former smoker that realizes how cigarette companies get customers, influencing them to smoke before reaching adulthood, well no, they don't come to your door beating you up for quitting, but they sure as hell had a hand in getting you to start in the first place.


Bullshit. I -chose- to start smoking. I saw others doing it, thought it looked cool, and actually had to WORK to start smoking, while my body retched and hacked... I was 15 years old, and old enough to know that it was (1) not a good thing... I'd had plenty of people including my parents tell me so, and (2) would "stunt my growth and shorten my life"... again... LOTS of input telling me what to do to avoid those problems. You know what... I DIDN'T CARE. I wanted the experience. It seemed interesting to me, and looked like fun, so I did it... and when it turned out not to be so much fun, it was plain old stubbornness that got me through -- personal choice... "I -am- going to learn how to smoke these things!"

Most of the problems in this country come from people who are unwilling to take personal responsibility for their bad choices, and try to find someone else to pawn it off on.


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:57:09 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I don't think they've charged him with contempt of court, but that's a good point. That'd be another few months most likely.

Calla, so you don't think that filling a pub (or bar, restaurant, office, whatever) with cigarette fumes is imposing your self abuse on anybody else? I can take your point, but you don't seem to be following it through very rigorously.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 12:59:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline


quote:

If I want to drink raw milk, that is illegal in most states in the US -- how ridiculous is that? When I was growing up, I worked on a dairy farm and drank raw cows milk every single day for nearly 15 years. Now, in order to be able to live running a dairy and sell one's milk, the government seals up the farmer's tanks and requires that they milk by machine, so that the milk has to go to the processor and the farmer has to buy it back at RETAIL to get the milk that they produce themselves. What kind of crap is that?


I am completely for your right to do that, but at the same time presenting an extreme argument the other direction doesn't help sway opinion into your corner... when people go around advocating complete deregulation on everything because the government is out to get them, they sound nutzo to those of us who have a more reasonable logical stance... such as smoking inside public buildings needs to be restricted for the public good, people with allergies to cigarettes and other respiratory ailments have a right to public spaces too...


quote:

While, in general, I have been in favor of single-payer insurance, I have to admit that one of my concerns, seeing the willingness of our government to cast away individual freedoms as soon as some special-interest group leans hard enough on them, is that single-payer insurance would become an excuse to legislate every single action that we take -- and then what are we but government puppets? If I have to sacrifice single-payer insurance (or -any- insurance) to keep my freedom about how I choose to heal myself or treat myself, I'm all good with that.


I would advocate health education as a part of insurance coverage, as long as people know what they are putting into their bodies they are consenting to the consequences... if they do not know what they are doing to their health, then they are not consenting to the consequences.

quote:

Of course, we know I'm a renegade, so I'll just keep my own counsel, and find my own Coventry, should the Regulation Nation get its way and regulate us into perfectly controlled little carbon copies of each other.


You do understand that regulation of smoking in public places is extremely important to some people, people who become severely impacted by "choices" other people make


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jaile... - 2/28/2010 1:03:52 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Calla, so you don't think that filling a pub (or bar, restaurant, office, whatever) with cigarette fumes is imposing your self abuse on anybody else? I can take your point, but you don't seem to be following it through very rigorously.


Actually, I've always taken personal responsibility for this stuff, and never smoked in restaurants, train stations, etc... Bars, I -have- smoked in, and my philosophy on that is, if I don't want to deal with ADULTS who smoke in an adult venue, then maybe I need to find an outdoor bar (which I do often, choosing IceHouse-style, outdoor bar venues rather than enclosed ones), or skip the bar scene.



_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 80
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