Bodhisatva
Posts: 85
Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thadius
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
By baiting I meant exactly that. You were not interested in dialogue except to bait an argument... which is made obvious by your use of the term christian apologetics. Can you tell me where else in the bible they list the direct lineage of a woman?
You own quotes do not support that descendancy had to be of DNA, although the argument could be made that such DNA would be related if one looks at the other relatives of Mary. Or do you also argue that Elisabeth was not of the same bloodlines?
As for other messianic prophecy, are you suggesting that the prophecy in Daniel is not fulfilled? The one proclaiming that the Messiah would come 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which at the time still lay in ruins?
Please do not pretend to know how I feel about the facts, or lack of them.
I listed my assertions point blank in the OP and have not deviated from them. And the more apt word is debate. Still, if you have a problem with a spirited discussion or debate, you can always stop responding.
As for the dna, I'll once again attempt to explain to you. If you're adopted, you will legally be part of the family adopting you. But you will not be of their blood line as you have none of their blood (their dna). The messianic prophicies require the messiah to be of the seed of david.
Provide a passage of this prophicy in daniel. What verse and what version are you using?
As for other's, are you suggesting that jesus lead the world to full torah obsevance as is required of the messiah (see OP)? Last I checked the entire world was not jewish nor were they following torah.
I asked you what baiting meant and you neglected to answer. Do not get upset with me for attemtping to deduce your meaning when you fail to provide an explanation for your own assertions.
I explained what baiting was in the last post. Too, I am far from upset.
Why doesn't that same argument about DNA apply to whether Moses was a prince of Egypt (until he chose to return to his people)? Also you have not refuted the fact that Heli was Mary's father, as Joseph's lineage is clearly lined out in Matthew. Unless you are suggesting that both lineages are fictional, at which point there is no proof either way, as we do not have any other way to prove such either way.
Was the messiah supposed to come and save all of the people? Even the NT suggests that he wasn't sent to save the gentiles.
Let me try the Daniel approach another way. Daniel prophecizes (spelling?) that the Messiah would arrive after the rebuilding of Jerusalem which was in ruins after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed it, at the time of Daniel. The Romans redestroyed the city and temple in 70 A.D., meaning that the deadline for the return would have to fall sometime between 70 A.D. and the rebuilding after Babylon destoyed the city.
There can be debate about the use of weeks in Daniel, however that is the case in many books of the bible where days or weeks are argued to represent years or generations.
Honest debate is welcomed, using a thread to bash other's faith is quite another thing.
First of all egypt is a different culture from the hebrew tradition. The cultural traditions of egypt, or japan, or india or what have you are not relevant to jewish theology. Second, as I already pointed out, the wording of the prophicies are clear, the messiah is to be of the seed of david. Seed is not passed through adoption. And yes, both lineages are most likely fictional, but either way those are what we have to work with. You say I have not dealt with the "fact" that mary's lineage is given, but since I already quoted the passage from luke and shown that it does not in fact address mary in any way your use of fact here is somewhat premature. I'm sure you're aware that by the time jesus is said to have lived jewish culture, while still patriarchal, was also matrilineal. Due to the repeated over throwing of isreal, and regular rape of the conquered isrealite women, it was the only way to be sure a child was truly of jewish blood (this being long before paternity tests were available). In short, it would be against all cultural norms of that time and place to list mary's lineage through joseph, with no mention to her name.
Yes, the messiah was to establish world peace and bring all people to full torah observance (to be one under gods law). I believe I provided the passages concerning this in my OP.
As for daniel, let us look at the passage. I don't see one listed in your previous responce. Please provide the passage you are reffering to and we will examine it. However, if it only says the messiah will come after the rebuilding of jerusalem then several problems with attributing this to jesus occurs.
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