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RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 5:50:52 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

You know the more I think about this subject the more I feel people are puting vanilla concepts onto a Master/slave relationship. Like really, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, if we are really talking about a Master and slave, the Master can say "Heck I dont wanna see you wearing the collar today" if he wants, why does it have to be a reflection on the relationship? I dont get it. (I dont get a lot however hehe)

People put a lot of symbolism into things. I've said it before that I'd like to see what would happen if slaves were ordered not to adorn ANY symbol of their relationship for a week. I think too often the essence gets put into the symbol, rather than the symbol simply being a symbol.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 41

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 6:01:06 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

As far as the OPs question. In my mind it would depend on the transgression that caused this. It would depend on the dianamics of the individual relationship. It may work in some M/s relationships and may not in others just like anything else. I mean my Masters most effective punishment is making me dress as a preppy(the worst has been white kaky shorts, a white polo shirt and white tennise shoes) some may laugh at that punishment but it works for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

You know the more I think about this subject the more I feel people are puting vanilla concepts onto a Master/slave relationship. Like really, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, if we are really talking about a Master and slave, the Master can say "Heck I dont wanna see you wearing the collar today" if he wants, why does it have to be a reflection on the relationship? I dont get it. (I dont get a lot however hehe)

jali,

I have to agree with you. My collar does NOT make my Phoenix's slave. I was his before he physically put his collar on and I have not had it physically around my neck now for 3 weeks. (A link broke so I can not wear it) So am I not his slave because the collar is not there?

My trust is in him, in his judgement,not in a peice of silver. Yes, at times when my hand reaches up and I feel my collar it reminds me that I am his. However, he reminds me of that in so many other ways.

I do have to say I agree with something else jali said. All to often I see people compare the dianamics of a M/s relationship to that of a "vanilla" marriage. I am sorry to me they are NOT the same.

I also do not see a collar the same as I do as a wedding ring. Though they are both jewlery.*laughs* Nor do I see marriage and slavery as th same. A few obvious reasons are marriage is legally binding where slavery even conscentual slavery is not. Marriage is recognized by the general population allows your spouse to be elligible for benifits ect where a collar or slavery does not.

In the end I have to wonder, what gives us right to judge anyone else. Their motives. Their punishment styles without knowing "all the facts".

Nika{Phoenix}
His Gothic Deviant -
Even when my collar is sitting in a jewelry chest!

< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 3/30/2006 6:03:49 AM >

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 42

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 6:04:56 AM

johnxinxscruz

Posts: 53
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Would you remove an engagement or a wedding ring as punishment? It's basically the same question.

First of all, let me say that my mind isn't made up on how I feel about this (though, I'm also new to all of this, but I have been thinking about it before I even saw this thread). So don't assume that my comments indicate support for the idea of removing a collar as a means of punishment.

I think the comparison between a wedding ring and a collar is a very good one ... but it doesn't necessarily serve only one side of the argument.

If I remove my wife's wedding ring we are NOT suddenly divorced. There's a whole other process that goes into a divorce. It may be the same as saying "I want a divorce", or "you should decide if you want a divorce", or even "you should be aware that divorce could happen", but it is not the same as the divorce itself. Trust me, I know ... we stopped wearing our wedding rings earlier this month, but we aren't divorced yet (we will be, but we aren't yet). Removing our rings is symbolic, but destroying a symbol of a think is only the same as destroying the thing when you're talking about sympathetic magic. If you don't believe in sympathetic magic, then an absolute link between symbol and symbolized is purely imagined.

It is bad/dangerous to make such a gesture or threat in that one who threatens to end a relationship risks having their bluff called ... and lots of people don't want to have their feelings used in a bluff. And if it is a bluff or threat that is made often, then it will cheapen not just the symbol and/or relationship, it will cheapen whatever credibility the person has (you can't have authority without respect, and you can't have respect without credibility ... so, what is a Dom/me who has no credibility in the eyes of their sub?).

But ... I can also see that there might be situations where it IS appropriate to say "if you continue on this path, a divorce is in our future". One way to communicate that is to remove the _symbol_ of the relationship. That may or may not be the best way to communicate it, but it is one way.

On the other hand, in any form of communication, it is vital to know your audience. If you don't know how your sub is going to react to it, then it's probably not a good idea to try it. And, if you try it, and they walk away instead of trying to get it back ... then clearly you didn't know your sub well enough to have made that gesture. Probably a lesson for the Dom/me as well.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 43

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 6:37:43 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
You know the more I think about this subject the more I feel people are puting vanilla concepts onto a Master/slave relationship. Like really, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, if we are really talking about a Master and slave, the Master can say "Heck I dont wanna see you wearing the collar today" if he wants, why does it have to be a reflection on the relationship? I dont get it. (I dont get a lot however hehe)

There is a big diffrence between just the physical object and what it represents. If I was taking my girl to a fancy resteraunt and the collar didn't look right with the outfit I chose for her, then the physical object would be left at home... she would still be my collared girl. However I responded to the OP in the terms of formaly using the collar in its symbolic sense.... Removing it then becomming saying "You are no longer owned by me"

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 44

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 7:05:54 AM

sultryvoice

Posts: 368
Joined: 3/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

As far as the OPs question. In my mind it would depend on the transgression that caused this. It would depend on the dianamics of the individual relationship. It may work in some M/s relationships and may not in others just like anything else. I mean my Masters most effective punishment is making me dress as a preppy(the worst has been white kaky shorts, a white polo shirt and white tennise shoes) some may laugh at that punishment but it works for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

You know the more I think about this subject the more I feel people are puting vanilla concepts onto a Master/slave relationship. Like really, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, if we are really talking about a Master and slave, the Master can say "Heck I dont wanna see you wearing the collar today" if he wants, why does it have to be a reflection on the relationship? I dont get it. (I dont get a lot however hehe)

jali,

I have to agree with you. My collar does NOT make my Phoenix's slave. I was his before he physically put his collar on and I have not had it physically around my neck now for 3 weeks. (A link broke so I can not wear it) So am I not his slave because the collar is not there?

My trust is in him, in his judgement,not in a peice of silver. Yes, at times when my hand reaches up and I feel my collar it reminds me that I am his. However, he reminds me of that in so many other ways.

I do have to say I agree with something else jali said. All to often I see people compare the dianamics of a M/s relationship to that of a "vanilla" marriage. I am sorry to me they are NOT the same.

I also do not see a collar the same as I do as a wedding ring. Though they are both jewlery.*laughs* Nor do I see marriage and slavery as th same. A few obvious reasons are marriage is legally binding where slavery even conscentual slavery is not. Marriage is recognized by the general population allows your spouse to be elligible for benifits ect where a collar or slavery does not.

In the end I have to wonder, what gives us right to judge anyone else. Their motives. Their punishment styles without knowing "all the facts".

Nika{Phoenix}
His Gothic Deviant -
Even when my collar is sitting in a jewelry chest!

A collar falling off from a broken link and being taken off are 2 entirely different things! One is an accident with no malice or inferred meaning and the other is punishment and the end of something. You can't compare apples to oranges!

Respectfully,
sultry

_____________________________

Blessed are the cracked,
For it is they who let in the light.

www.themarkbycpi.com

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)

Post #: 45

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 7:11:55 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

sultry,

You seem to have missed my point.
Which is simply my collar does not define me as Phoenix's slave. I am his regardless of a a peice of jewelry being around my neck.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to sultryvoice)

Post #: 46

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 7:37:01 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

You know the more I think about this subject the more I feel people are puting vanilla concepts onto a Master/slave relationship. Like really, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, if we are really talking about a Master and slave, the Master can say "Heck I dont wanna see you wearing the collar today" if he wants, why does it have to be a reflection on the relationship? I dont get it. (I dont get a lot however hehe)

People put a lot of symbolism into things. I've said it before that I'd like to see what would happen if slaves were ordered not to adorn ANY symbol of their relationship for a week. I think too often the essence gets put into the symbol, rather than the symbol simply being a symbol.

Master's collar on me is a symbol. Period. However, it provides me great comfort. As i mentioned before, whenever i am down or insecure (including the times i am being punished), my fingers wander to it, to play with it, touch it, tug on it. Maybe because i don't see him very often, but it is something i meditate on to bring me back to a peaceful place. i actually sleep with my thumb looped through it. Taking away the symbol of our relationship, which provides me such great comfort in his absence, would shake my world a bit. Removing it for any period of time would have me quite depressed.

What would happen to a devout Christian who was no longer able to wear a crucifix neckace, or show any outward signs of faith? Or for someone of the Jewish faith to be unable to wear the Star of David? Such things are symbolic, but who's to say there should be no meaning behind symbols?

If Master had never given me a collar, he would still own me (He owned me long before he collared me), but my collar - symbolic as it may be - has become almost a spiritual representative for me. i would feel too naked and too exposed to the world without it. It feels like my shield of protection somehow. Hard to explain, but there is a deep emotional attachment, not to the piece of metal itself, but for the ability to wear it. To have such a privilege removed would be heartbreaking.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 47

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 7:40:16 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

There is a big diffrence between just the physical object and what it represents. If I was taking my girl to a fancy resteraunt and the collar didn't look right with the outfit I chose for her, then the physical object would be left at home... she would still be my collared girl. However I responded to the OP in the terms of formaly using the collar in its symbolic sense.... Removing it then becomming saying "You are no longer owned by me"

This speaks to what i have often said here and elsewhere, about abuse and other topics. The intention behind an action is what is reflective.

However, my Master doesn't give a damn if my collar matches an outfit or not. If i felt it clashed, he would say something like, "Oh well," or, "you prefer that dress over your collar, slut?" Ha, he would likely have me remove the dress if that were the case :)

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 48

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 8:38:23 AM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadamShy

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

It's a common form of punishment in some areas of Gorean Role Play and it was used regularly in some BDSM rooms in the old MSN. Those using this form of puishgment were in the past the would-be-if-they-could-be-but-never-will crowd. I din't know what goes on therenow but it sounds like the same mentality.... It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment and the perpitrators need to gave their genitalia removed without anethesitic and publically IMO...

which book was a collar taken off for punishment? as I find this interesting that you say collar off for punishment is gorean.

I think you need to reread his post. I think his point was he had witnessed this from the "I wanna be but never will be crowd", though it was that crowd playing in a gorean chat. I think he also stated vey well what he thought of those same wannabes

K

< Message edited by PlayfulOne -- 3/30/2006 8:39:38 AM >

(in reply to MadamShy)

Post #: 49

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 8:49:22 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyCaptainsPet

In a group on Yahoo they are discussing the removal of collars as a form of punishment.

i don't know, this just disturbs me... My collar is a symbol of US and of what we are together.

Anyone have any thoughts on this????

seems to me thats like taking off a wedding band

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MyCaptainsPet)

Post #: 50

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 9:09:09 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
However, my Master doesn't give a damn if my collar matches an outfit or not. If i felt it clashed, he would say something like, "Oh well," or, "you prefer that dress over your collar, slut?" Ha, he would likely have me remove the dress if that were the case :)

I didn't say it mattered if SHE thought it clashed, but that if *I* thought it clashed

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 51

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 9:10:28 AM

BrianSenior

Posts: 88
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I see the points made by LA and by jali,

It depends on what the collar symbolizes, which can vary greatly. If the collar is a gift or a reward to the sub, given as an anniversary present, or just a special piece of jewelry, then it makes sense that it could be taken away as punishment.

So for example, if for some reason I cant think of right now, I was being one bad-assed slave, taking my collar off would symbolise to me that I was not acting like a slave so why should I get to wear my collar?...

If the collar was removed it would be that the submissive is so far from what she is to be that the collar is not deserved and that the relationship in a whole needs to be re-evaluated. I dont think it is somthing that would be repeated as it would be like a last straw, or final attempt to correct the behavior with out physical punishment. I just asked My girl what she thought of it and she said she would rather have a true black and blue ass beating rather then the collar removed. That to Me means it would be never forgoten. If the relationship will over come it, then it will be stronger. Perhaps?

~BK~

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 52

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 11:22:58 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

I've said it before that I'd like to see what would happen if slaves were ordered not to adorn ANY symbol of their relationship for a week.

That would be really hard for me to do since I'm inked. ::chuckles:: The point is, though.. if it has no meaning, why wear it at all? The collar coming off represents release just as wearing it represents ownership. I'm speaking only for 'our' relationship. For us, it's an end. The collar he can take, the wedding ring he'd have to ask for.. and if he did, I'd know he didn't want to be married to me anymore. Same thing.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 53

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 12:44:55 PM

Oberonrex

Posts: 164
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

If I remove my collar from someone, it means that the relationship is over. Period. Doing anything else is not punishment, but blackmail as in do it my way or else. How can there be trust in such a context?

(in reply to MyCaptainsPet)

Post #: 54

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:04:38 PM

la90066

Posts: 177
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Depends on the couple?!!

For some, a "collar" is akin to a wedding ring, for others it's not. If it's the former, as opposed to the latter, then "no", I disagree with using said collar as a means to punish, but for those where it's viewed as merely a prize/symbol, then so be it.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 55

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:15:32 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

quote:

Original Quote: la90066
For some, a "collar" is akin to a wedding ring, for others it's not.

So true, I find the dynamics and interrelated repercussions of that statement interesting though in regards to a Master/slave relationship. It begs the question "Why do we have to place the same meaning to our Master/slave relationship and the subsequent vanilla ideologies around the symbologies? Validation in some way? Its an interesting topic....but probably too far removed from the OPS intention to discuss.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to la90066)

Post #: 56

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:45:26 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
However, my Master doesn't give a damn if my collar matches an outfit or not. If i felt it clashed, he would say something like, "Oh well," or, "you prefer that dress over your collar, slut?" Ha, he would likely have me remove the dress if that were the case :)

I didn't say it mattered if SHE thought it clashed, but that if *I* thought it clashed

~ grin ~ i caught that after i posted (and i wear lots of things it clashes with, btw...i'd rather it clashed than to not wear it). Master still doesn't care if it clashed, and if it did matter to him, he'd change my outfit.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 57

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:48:05 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

I've said it before that I'd like to see what would happen if slaves were ordered not to adorn ANY symbol of their relationship for a week.

That would be really hard for me to do since I'm inked. ::chuckles:: The point is, though.. if it has no meaning, why wear it at all?

i'm branded by tattoo also so impossible here too. i agree with your other point, too.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 58

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:48:24 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
So true, I find the dynamics and interrelated repercussions of that statement interesting though in regards to a Master/slave relationship. It begs the question "Why do we have to place the same meaning to our Master/slave relationship and the subsequent vanilla ideologies around the symbologies? Validation in some way? Its an interesting topic....but probably too far removed from the OPS intention to discuss.

I think it's because those are the models we grow up with, the ones that are simply accepted and permeated through everything, and often those are the main relationships that people go through. While I think it's slowly changing, and will continue as more people my age come into this before making the "vanilla marriage and kids mistake" vanilla relationships are still pretty much the only framework people have to go on.

So it makes sense that people use that as their touchstone and compare/contrast point. The funny thing is that vanilla relationships are as varied as M/s is in terms of dynamics, working together, responsibilities and so on.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 59

RE: Removing a collar as punishment.... - 3/30/2006 1:51:15 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

I expect the collar, be it locking or not, to not come off unless the relationship is formally declared as over. To remove a collar out of anger or in retaliation (which is what punishment is) can cause psychological damage...for both parties. I'd be devastated and it'd take a LONG time to recover if anne or jason removed their collar without some form of communication with me...unless it was a life or death kind of thing (in which case, rip that thing off!) or it was forcibly removed by someone (I would replace it and give it in a ceremony). I know, however, it’s unlikely that they would remove their own collars. anne's collar is hardwired on and would have to be cut off. It's a lifetime collar. jason's collar is very similar to anne's but it can be removed easily (necklace). he feels it has religious significance to him...he wears it even in uniform.

Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to MyCaptainsPet)

Post #: 60

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