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Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 5:37:31 PM   
LadyEllen


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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254584/Blaze-killed-pensioners-arson-Yobs-set-mobility-scooter.html

When I posted last week that no one dares challenge the gangs of kids hanging round outside their homes, I was told it was an incredulous statement.

This is why it isnt. And its far from an isolated case too.

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 6:03:27 PM   
Aneirin


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Believe it or not, the last thing you do is challenge gangs of youths hanging around your home, the best thing to do, is the hardest, ignore them and what they do, turn the other cheek to their taunts and insults, don't give them a reason to make your life worse than it is, oh and one last thing, forget the police, they are worse than useless when it comes to tackling these situations.

I am just waiting for the first person to snap, boil over and kill one of these little shit holes, for it will happen and then we will hear words of how good the little sod was from all and sundry and the poor sod that puts the little shit down feels the full impact of the law. All because we have a police force that is scared and ill equipped to deal with modern youths, the police actually make things worse with their blundering actions. No wonder the law and those that represent it are losing respect in modern Britain, it does not serve and protect.




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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 6:12:03 PM   
Level


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Horrible story.

Others may criticize Texas all they want, this kind of shit would not be commonplace here though.

Any hope that things will change for you folks over there?


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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 6:24:32 PM   
Aneirin


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Nothing aside from revolution I think, for those in power they only hear about this stuff, never, never experience it. If revolition comes first job, poke the cctv eyes out.

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 7:32:47 PM   
LadyEllen


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It seems to me that it is easy to blame the police, the social services, the local council et al. Indeed they failed in their duties - even here where it would appear they were not contacted, for the reason they were not contacted is that the prevalent experience is a lack of interest and especially effective action.

But consider the position of these people. The police are called out again and again and again and can take no effective action against the armies of yobs that confront them - after all, the reason the yobs behave as they do is that they realise and understand the impotence of the justice system when it comes to those who feel they have nothing to gain from civil behaviour and little to lose from their preferred conduct.

Social services meanwhile are overwhelmed - and in truth cannot do right for doing wrong in the public mind, even when they identify something they can do and have the time and resources to deliver it. The local council likewise.

And next we are to see funding and positions in all three agencies reduced as we face up to a national fiscal situation that is little short of a nightmare. But then politicians and bankers dont live with these problems on their doorsteps.

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 10:00:40 PM   
popeye1250


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L.E. you guys need to get guns again. You don't "ask" the govt. you "tell" them you are.
Who the fuck is in control over there anyway? If that shit happened in Boston, Mass the Irish or Italian Mafia's or both would go after those kids and kill them! They'd just never see them again.
All that "feel good" crap you people have been engaging in over the last 30 years or so is comming back to bite you on the ass.
It's time to break some heads. Yobs and politicians!

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 10:04:15 PM   
LadyEllen


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Now that would be child abuse Popeye - a very serious offence for which the justice system is very efficient, which is just another reason why the law abiding dare not challenge - you lose out either way.

As Chief Clancy Wiggum once said "the law cant help you, but it can punish you"

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/1/2010 11:31:57 PM   
myotherself


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It's a dreadful story, and sadly probably not the last time we'll here about stuff like this. After all, being a free country we allow assholes to breed freely (and they do..prolifically), and they produce asshole kids who all know their 'human rights'.

But on the other side of the coin, I live in a very blue-collar housing estate in a deprived area of the North. My parents moved here when I was 15, and it was rough. There were drugs, drink and antisocial behaviour on the streets every day. But about 5 years ago the good people who live here said 'enough'. We have a brilliant local Councillor who has worked with the police to arrange for regular (hourly) police patrols in the area. The local shops now have CCTV cameras, so big groups of people (usually kids) can be dispersed before they get rowdy. We have a quick-dial number to the police station to report any disturbances, or to shop a drug dealer or whatever.

From being an area where no-one wanted to live, houses here now sell within days. I even bought one myself when I moved back to this part of the world

But this is the kind of news that doesn't make the papers, sadly. As a former journalist myself, I can tell you that good news rarely sells papers. What we need is to show people that change IS possible, and how it can be done. Maybe that way we can stop this awful trend of violence and bullying.



edited for early morning spelling disaster


< Message edited by myotherself -- 3/1/2010 11:35:25 PM >


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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/2/2010 12:50:30 AM   
susie


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I agree with mos that there are things that can be done. In our business we have had some local apprentices work with us. They all have cars which they play with and put crazy body mods on which we have pointed out to them are mostly illegal. They have complained constantly that they have nothing to do in the evenings. They have no money they just have their cars. What they do is gather in a local car park, eat take aways leaving the rubbish on the floor, race around and do "doughnuts". It annoys the locals and the police often move them on which means they head off to another car park and do the same thing.

We are currently working with the local council and police to find somewhere where we can offer these kids a safe place to congregate. The police can give them some friendly helpful advice about what is legal or not on their cars. The kids think this is a great idea as they will have somewhere to go to which will be managed. The hardest thing about getting this done is getting the buy in from the council etc. My partner is well respected by these kids partly for his knowledge of cars but mostly because he spends time with them.

Hopefully this will all be in place soon now that the weather is starting to improve.

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/2/2010 1:26:57 PM   
LadyEllen


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Just an update - a 15 year old has been arrested on suspicion of murder. What they come to charge him with if anything will be interesting - murder (ie deliberate) or manslaughter (ie incidental/accidental).

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/2/2010 5:42:55 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Any hope that things will change for you folks over there?



Yes Level they will, when people start taking responsibility both on a personal and a community level again and instead of looking round for someone to blame and moan how terrible it is, actually do something to change things for the better.

Now it might piss some people off here but I don't care, some things need to be said. The above to me is the essential crux of the problem here, the actual nitty gritty, and this is the issue which goes over and above our own unique class system - it applies just as much to many of the homeless sleeping on the streets of London as it does to the politicians and everyone in power. It applies to both the rich and the poor in our society.

This harks back to the time of Thatcher when changes in technology changed the way we live when all of a sudden we needed to be competitive for the sake of the 'economy' and 'growth' which has ended up with forcing some people out to the margins of society and a sort of social scrapheap and many others on a sort of treadmill of sleep work spend, sleep work spend, sleep work spend to drive the economy. We were led to believe this was necessary to get us through what was coming.

In reality it's the rich or the upper tier of the class system which has benefitted leaving the rest to push and shove to get their snouts to the trough, our industry was sold off for short term credit to give people more spending power through loans, credit and finance and the strategy has been to make as much as you can and spend as little, to think in terms of the short term and look for the immediate payoff because these corporate businessmen really do care for us and they were to create a service based economy with a place for everyone.

Years of tax cuts, spending cuts, cutbacks in services, tendering, privatization, where nothing was spared, not even the NHS or education.

The chickens started coming home to roost in the 1990's and I wonder how many can remember those carping about the unelected John Major? It would appear that many were taken in by Tony Blair as they were by Thatcher, so many promises, and just as many lies, scandals not to mention two wars that we can ill afford.

The chickens are coming home to roost and we have a generation of younger people who by and large have no prospects and nothing to look forward to, who are being educated and prepared for a future in dead end jobs - unless of course they come from a family with money or are prepared to get themselves very heavily into debt just to get through studies, with no guarantee of anything at the end when they graduate.

Because people have been forced to compete with one another communities have suffered, as have families, and even more the one thing that previous generations of young people needed to get through and retain their sanity - subcultures. Young people don't protest any more, they can't, there's too much at stake for it can literally cost them their future.

Yes there are some who react negatively in such circumstances - especially when they have been left with little hope, little to look forward to, and little to occupy their time or interest them. This is no different to some of those rehoused in the FEMA trailer parks after Hurricane Katrina who took the money and thought 'Oh boy, party time!'

But let us not forget that the story in the OP comes from the Daily Mail, which like almost all the other newspapers and media is biased in the picture it presents but it's important to remember that the vast majority of young people today are trying to do what best they can to make the best of their lives and we are here only talking about a sizeable minority.

But then again is it really all that different from when we were teenagers? Society might have changed but the people are just the same as they ever were and somehow, in some way we will all get through.

But before we start to go on about those 'terrible youths' maybe we can stop and think for a moment and remember that children and young adults look to those older and better established as their role models, to learn from, and from where they get their values and morality, they have parents, teachers and are influenced by the media and entertainment industry.

And what is that exactly? Well when it comes to music backed by the media we appear to have two role models in Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse who would probably be more prolific if it weren't for their personal lives. Then there's celebrity culture, the X Factor, and I won't go on about education and what's happening in families but young people are adopting the sort of values and behaviour that the rest of society are modelling to them.

And I personally feel that maybe when we start taking responsibility for this and stop accepting irresponsibility then maybe the young people of today will start to do likewise. When we provide young people with opportunities to occupy themselves and pursue their interests and when we start offering them prospects is when we start taking steps in the right direction.

And I sincerely hope that we realize this before we end up becoming a part of the Third World.

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/2/2010 6:18:25 PM   
LadyEllen


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Amen Stella. It in no way justifies still less does it absolve the yob(s) from what they do, (and I do believe its different from when we were kids, in nature and scale), but we have to understand that it hasnt occurred in a vacuum but rather as the perhaps inevitable result of several decades of socio-economic change that very few wanted and very few benefitted from. To resolve the problem, rather than attempt futilely to deal with the symptoms, will require a serious examination of where we are and how we got here.

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 1:19:33 AM   
Vendaval


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Horrible crime. How long could a suspect be incarcerated if convicted?

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 7:38:38 AM   
LadyEllen


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It would be a life sentence for murder, a variable number of years within a limit up to life for manslaughter, which is most likely what the conviction would be for in the end given the issues of proving a deliberate effort to kill rather than the deaths being incidental/accidental to the more provable intent of arson, depending on the state of mind of the offender and the circumstances of the case.

A life sentence can be as little as 10 years in prison - though release is on conditional licence and recall to prison is possible for any reason, the breach of the licence conditions being the more usual reason - or a whole life in prison until death.

E

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 8:47:07 AM   
frazzle


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reference to the "daily mail" article.

There is no YOB culture in that area and the locals object to the story,and wonder where they got it from.

Yes a 15 year old has now been arrested, since a second arson attack on another elderly couple occured. Neither incident had been connected when i last watched the local news.

< Message edited by frazzle -- 3/3/2010 8:48:23 AM >

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 9:08:22 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254584/Blaze-killed-pensioners-arson-Yobs-set-mobility-scooter.html

When I posted last week that no one dares challenge the gangs of kids hanging round outside their homes, I was told it was an incredulous statement.

This is why it isnt. And its far from an isolated case too.

E


Indeed, it reminded me straightaway on that one:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569275/Father-killed-for-challenging-gang-of-youths.html


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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 9:20:35 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Nothing aside from revolution I think, for those in power they only hear about this stuff, never, never experience it.


Oh, don't bet on that one...whilst in general I do agree, I also do know that my ex got mugged and beaten twice in the last 3 years from criminals in his area, on his way home, and he is a councillor. So even they can experience the real life

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 9:26:49 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

release is on conditional licence and recall to prison is possible for any reason, the breach of the licence conditions being the more usual reason - or a whole life in prison until death.

E


they just brought recently in the news that one of the bulgar murderers were called back to prison as he breached his conditions of release

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7355381/James-Bulger-killer-Jon-Venables-sent-back-to-prison.html


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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 11:34:12 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Horrible story.

Others may criticize Texas all they want, this kind of shit would not be commonplace here though.

Any hope that things will change for you folks over there?




It's not commonplace over here.

As soon as this incident happened the media were full of stories about how the area was crawling with anti-social behaviour. So the middle class lapped it up.....

Until a few independent journalists went into the area concerned and asked the local people about it and they said: "it's such a surprise because we haven't had any trouble here for 3 years....it's such a nice place to live". Surprise suprise eh....

It's amazing how easily led people are (and want to be). They want to get out of the house more instead of gossiping behind twitching curtains.

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RE: Life in Merry Old England - a snapshot - 3/3/2010 1:09:59 PM   
ricken


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I wrote a pretty decent little post and it seems to have gotten sent to internet hell....

SO, I just want to say that Susie & Stella I agree with what you are saying, adults NEED to be involved in kids lives for things to change.

LadyEllen, your remark about "things being different when you were kids" might be true FOR YOU, but as a 50 yo that grew up in a city I can assure you that there was rotten kids 35 + years ago and there will always be SOME kids that no matter what will do the wrong thing.

I feel bad for the lose and destruction of lives, and think the little idiot should die behind bars. But I also feel a little (very little) sorry for this kid that MAY not have been shown, or given, options and choices.

To me one major is issue is lack of jobs, I mean real work-with-your-hands-untill-your-tired, jobs. We are now making nations of consumers that have no respect for work, because EVERYTHING is made in a country far away where there is no, or not enforced regulation on manufacturing.

The revelotion starts with poking the CCTV lens, and DEMANDING the replacement be made in the country of use.

Don't know how much this added, but I had to say it....

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