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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 2:04:15 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

"The shaman's soul, once annihilated, is freed and liberated from all sorts of earthly constraints and becomes transformed into a divine spirit. Death is no longer an evil to be apprehended, but a path to blessedness and purification."


I love this example. In this example death has a purpose and a result that most would say is positive: transformed into a divine spirit.

I also like the example of the seed: The seed must die to give birth to the oak tree. The death has purpose and meaning. The result being positive.

If the seed were to die, simply for the sake of deliberately killing it? and no other result was achieved. Would that be a positive result? I suppose it would depend upon the objective. Is the seed defective and needs to be destroyed to prevent the tree? Or was it killed just for the fun of killing it?

When talking about a human life or spirit. Is it positive to kill one because it is defective or just for the fun of it? In the defective case Euthanasia comes to mind.

I'm not disregarding the shamanistic example you gave which is superb. But, is a rebirth the objective in some or all cases? I dont think so. In all the profiles I have read, even the very articulate ones, an expected result was never specified. This is precisely what puzzled Me. I got the distinct impression the unstated objective was a spiritual suicide. That the person was drawn to the dark side of BDSM because that is were she could find people willing to do it to her. In much the same way that a suicidal person is drawn to a police station, or producers of snuff films, or a tall building, etc.

< Message edited by Lorenzo19 -- 3/5/2010 2:05:50 PM >


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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 2:21:50 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

mineral spirit
vegetable spirit
animal spirit
human spirit

four spirits make up physical reality

spirit is the energy that animates

spirit is how a tomato plant makes tomatoes

spirit gives carbon it's qualities

six apples in a basket, you have six apples

six protons in a basket you have carbon

add one more, a gas

take one away, a metal

how does the basket know what to be? spirit

spirit is the connection between Daddy and little girl

Master and slave

Teacher and student

spirit is what gives an atom it purpose

a cell its purpose

an organ its purpose

a human it's purpose


Deep thoughts by Domi


If a apple tree has enough spirit can it produce a tomato?

Discuss amongst yourselves.



If spirit is what connects daddy's to little girls why is it the police that are always trying to connect certain grown men with little boys?

Discuss amongst yourselves.


I am a deep person to contemplate such things...You should be wanting to kind of blow me about right now.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 2:35:48 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

quote:

"The shaman's soul, once annihilated, is freed and liberated from all sorts of earthly constraints and becomes transformed into a divine spirit. Death is no longer an evil to be apprehended, but a path to blessedness and purification."


I love this example. In this example death has a purpose and a result that most would say is positive: transformed into a divine spirit.

I also like the example of the seed: The seed must die to give birth to the oak tree. The death has purpose and meaning. The result being positive.

If the seed were to die, simply for the sake of deliberately killing it? and no other result was achieved. Would that be a positive result? I suppose it would depend upon the objective. Is the seed defective and needs to be destroyed to prevent the tree? Or was it killed just for the fun of killing it?

When talking about a human life or spirit. Is it positive to kill one because it is defective or just for the fun of it? In the defective case Euthanasia comes to mind.

I'm not disregarding the shamanistic example you gave which is superb. But, is a rebirth the objective in some or all cases? I dont think so. In all the profiles I have read, even the very articulate ones, an expected result was never specified. This is precisely what puzzled Me. I got the distinct impression the unstated objective was a spiritual suicide. That the person was drawn to the dark side of BDSM because that is were she could find people willing to do it to her. In much the same way that a suicidal person is drawn to a police station, or producers of snuff films, or a tall building, etc.

This is a similar notion for a lot of "spiritual" followers. I may not enjoy the act of death but I don't fear result.


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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:04:20 PM   
wisdomtogive


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Death and rebirth is something we all do, knowing or not, many of times throughout a lifetime. Earth, air, water, fire and Spirit. Earth = physical, air= intellect/thinking process, water= emotions, fire=creative passion...Spirit= higher self transcending to the Cosmic Source. Just a path, and nothing more. It doesn't matter, because living life  is happening all day long and night. What matters is your actions, for you[person] will be held accountable. Lessons are to help us in the death and rebirth process, also known as the phoenix.  A path to spiritual enlightment is to lead to more paths, some enlightment will be dropped and other gain. Enlightment is good, living with action is better. Saying 'this' made me do it, instead of taking full responsibility for your actions, is enlightment gone haywire. Are we to realize to the human eye and consciousness that there will always be black and white? If so, can you go past that and free your mind?

There now I just typed a bunch of mumble jumble enlightment, it is senseless unless it makes sense to another. What i hold true today is subject to not be truth tomorrow.

< Message edited by wisdomtogive -- 3/5/2010 3:06:29 PM >


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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:13:25 PM   
osf


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I believe I'll have another drink

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:22:45 PM   
wisdomtogive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

I believe I'll have another drink


What are you drinking osf? What type of elixir?

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:29:16 PM   
takemeforyourown


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I don't seek spiritual suicide in bdsm. It is, in fact, when I feel MOST alive and connected. If I want spiritual suicide, I'll just stop taking my antidepressants for a week and sink into the hole of lost perspective, where God and everything I love cannot reach me.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:34:27 PM   
wisdomtogive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown

I don't seek spiritual suicide in bdsm. It is, in fact, when I feel MOST alive and connected. If I want spiritual suicide, I'll just stop taking my antidepressants for a week and sink into the hole of lost perspective, where God and everything I love cannot reach me.


i would hope you would not seek spiritual suicide. That was not what I meant. We all find what works for us, and in the end what works for you is best, don't you think?

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 3:37:19 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown

I don't seek spiritual suicide in bdsm. It is, in fact, when I feel MOST alive and connected.


Thank you. I have a similar effect on My spirit.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 4:24:25 PM   
CarrieO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

But, is a rebirth the objective in some or all cases? I dont think so. In all the profiles I have read, even the very articulate ones, an expected result was never specified. This is precisely what puzzled Me. I got the distinct impression the unstated objective was a spiritual suicide. That the person was drawn to the dark side of BDSM because that is were she could find people willing to do it to her. In much the same way that a suicidal person is drawn to a police station, or producers of snuff films, or a tall building, etc.


Just curious...have you written to or spoken with any of the people who've posted these profiles?  Also, did you take a look at the link (in post #78) to the thread on the Ask A Mistress forum?  Like I said before, is it escapism, fantasy or a desire to destroy who they are, spiritually or otherwise. 
 
You have some choices...ask the person who created the profile why they want these things and maybe get an understanding of what makes them tick...or you can continue to wonder why.
 
Of course, there's always door #3.....make a peanut butter sandwich and find a excitingly creative way to share it with your partner. 



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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 4:46:17 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19
Since time immorial the elements have been divided into 4 groups irregadless of religion, faith or lack there of:

1) earth - physial 2) air - intellect 3) water - emotion 4) fire - spirit

Um, no that's centuries out of date. The elements are generally grouped like this:






Attachment (1)

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 5:06:19 PM   
Lorenzo19


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CarrieO, yeah looked at the link... The guy seems like pretty standard subbie. he mentioned nothing like what I desribed. But no matter I take it as a given that gender is not likely an issue.

quote:

What really disturbed Me were requests such as: Take away my personality, wants, needs, treat me like a thing without feelings, without thoughts, without memories, without friends, without love, without hopes or dreams, without any semblence of being human, or having ever been human, an object, a thing. even less than a thing.


quote:

You have some choices...ask the person who created the profile why they want these things and maybe get an understanding of what makes them tick...or you can continue to wonder why.


I have not actually tried this... For good reason. It is hard enough to get any girl to respond to Me. I can imagine asking questions like this will prolly get My cmail fast track deleted. And whatever I found out would be heresay with no way to verify it was on the level. But it might be worth a try.

quote:

Of course, there's always door #3.....make a peanut butter sandwich and find a excitingly creative way to share it with your partner.


There is one other better possibility. A practioner, past or present, of this particular fetish (BDSM Dark) might respond to this thread. That's far fetched. But it would be first hand.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 5:39:09 PM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19

I believe everyone has thier own path to spirituality. The Kama Sutra expouses how sexuality can be that path. BDSM-D/s has upped the ante in sexuality. Maybe it is time for Kama Sutra 2nd Edition.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

How is this different from Tantric, Taoist, Hindi, or various pagan approaches to sexuality?




whatever our opinion OT I think we should be more careful about such statements than more often than not are a projection of a western fancyful mistification on eastern spirituality than the "original". No doubt there are portions of it dealing with "sacred sexuality" but marginal, often looked down by not only by some puritanical fundamentalists by but most of the saints, mystics and progressive reformers too. The difference is that in those places there is less religious persecution and control, so many things developed. That does not imply it is something prevalent or respected.  Even left handed vamachara tantra is not as sexual as it is presentet in the popular culture. Actually what is presented is not really tantra at all, but sexology in a fancy eastern mystique envelope. Interestingly enough no one seems that much enthusiastic in other vamacara practices like eating human corpses or meditating on them. Surelly if someone decides to follow the pat of "heroic spiritual extremism" he will not stop at what seems to be pleasurable activities in disguise of spirituality, but do anything in the name of it?  How manny of this tantrics have ever even read anny genuine original scriptures, how many of them tried to learn Sanskrit etc?

And besides small groups of vamachara tantrics (not even tantra sa a whole because a tantric can also bee a staunch celibate for example) most Hindus are, in our perception, very conservative. And I believe the same can be said about other religions mentioned too.

About Kama Sutra I don't have the impression it has much to do with "sacred sexuality"; more a manual for marital life, more in the category of a cook book than a highly spiritual text. And I believe that the author (btw the author that is traditionally connected with the book is considered celibate himself)  stated in that same Sutra that those sexual things are for young people while later one should invest time and energy in more important things, like religion for example :D

I can't comment paganism, but would dare to think that, it often being mostly revived from not that many plausible sources after a long pause, there is a lot of space to impose our own fantasies and desires on it. But again, I really don't know nothing about it.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva

No, most of the BIG religions as you put it don't have a hell in them.

how is that? Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity and Islam have it. Budhism and Hinduism have it, Jains have it and so on.. ??






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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:04:23 PM   
Shekicromaster


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OT I see the eventual benefits of BDSM beyond the kink itself more in its eventually psychological/cathartic/compensating possibilities than in something really that spiritual.

We can, of course, take a different view.

For example looking at more physical approach to spirituality by attempting to awake (supposed) dormant kundalini power we can do a number of yogic exercises, usually with celibacy as a sine qua non. But than there are certain exercises that should /supposedly) do the same during the intercourse itself. Of course after a long preliminary practice of mastering a few mudras, pranayamas and such wich is not that easy if one wants to do it "by the book".  Than, using a partner selected by the teacher and in his presence, in a ritual setting, one might enter such practices from time to time.

Than one more attracted to a devotional approach can develop his emotional attachment to God by worshiping anthropomorphic (or non) manifestations of it. Idol worship, especially of the chosen ishta is a good example like it is Jesus or Mary in Christianity.  Here too we have modifications like kumari puja, where a virgin girl is worshiped like a manifestation of the Divine Mother herself, very much as a temple idol would be.

It is also said in some scriptures that the same goal can be achieved not only by worshiping God, but by worshiping and serving one's Guru, parents, husband and so on. Of cource it can be easily explained in terms of social control but let as ignore that for a moment and look at psychological mechanisms in the worshiper. We could perhaps come to a conclusion that any archetypal role of authority in our life could potentially be "deified" by projecting the ideal on a physical manifestation, even if that manifestation itself is not perfect. That should not meter as it is our mind that makes the projections and worships it, the actual person being more a tool, a wall to project it.

However in all this instances we are talking about using such situation for spiritual benefits, them being just tools. I'm afraid that what we are usually doing in relationships, especially in those heavily relaying on kink and therefore passion, a "lower" manifestation of human potential as it is usually accepted in most "paths" or emotion that is also basically considered a manifestation of lust (not of course "higher" emotions of unconditional compassion and such) can only with difficouly and immagination be considered such an edevour as it is not that we do it for spiritual reasons (and wouldn't care a bit otherwise) , we are doing it becouse our uncontroled desires are making us, and we than just try to mask it in some fancy theories.

As Svoboda's (real or literary) teacher in one of his Aghori books said - the people who are usually attracted to the left hand path are not really qualified for it, those who are, who have enough will and detachment are usually not interested in it as for them, to use the comparison of one of most famous and respected Tantrics who, incidentally, was celibate, it is like trying to enter a palace from a back entrance where the garbage is thrown out, instead of entering gloriously through the main gate like a victorious general.

Yet, if one was willing to take this D/s relationship on such an idealized level where physical aspect would be completely transcended and forgotten It might, of course, theoretically at least, be possible. It is just that I have yet too see such an incredible divine manifestation between us, that are, frankly, just a bunch of pervs making too much noise about it and trying by any means to look greater than we are to give more importance to what, basically, is nothing more than primordial animal grade sex and power related behavior.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:07:12 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19
Since time immorial the elements have been divided into 4 groups irregadless of religion, faith or lack there of:

1) earth - physial 2) air - intellect 3) water - emotion 4) fire - spirit

Um, no that's centuries out of date. The elements are generally grouped like this:



Pondering for a moment.... Raises hand like some J.R. Tolkien Wizard and proceeds to cast "Conjure Nitrous Oxide Elemental" Spell and proceeds to Roll 2d20 for damage.

1. Solid - physical
2. Liquid - Emotion
3. Gas - Intellect
4. Plasma - Spirit

Interesting that the Period table is itself divided into 4 blocks (s, p, d and f) by the type of atomic orbital wave patterns. Hey, there's only so many patterns. Squares, Triangles, and Circles however without a point it all would be pointless (intentional word play with 4 missing shape). Plasma can be very elusive. Not to mention three primary colors.. black is just the absense of those three primary colors, Not that we should count the 4th. Then again black t-shirts are not really true black.. because if they were you would'nt really see them at all. Sort of a mind fuck if you ask me. Then again so is Plasma, or Elements on the Periodic table with unknown matter states assigned to them. Not to mention it supports theortical elements that don't simply naturally exist in nature. So yeah, the things that can be said for the shit we simply can not see nor fully understand.

Pardon me, I'm off to do some whippet now. Those huffs of nitrous oxide (NO) from Reddi Wip cans. Playing with the Elements can be fun..

Tell you what!! Let's put the Elements to the Spirtual Experience Test. Lysergic Acid Diethylamide. I wonder how many spiritual writings through out history was inspired by Grain Fungus anyways. People tripping but just did'nt realize it for what it was.

Raises hand again like J.R. Tolkien Wizard and proceeds to cast "LSD Spirtual Experience" spell and Rolls 2d20 to consult reference chart for trip effects.

Elements and Chemistry can be a very Spirtual Experience!!!




< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 3/5/2010 6:12:09 PM >


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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:28:12 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

It is also said in some scriptures that the same goal can be achieved not only by worshiping God, but by worshiping and serving one's Guru, parents, husband and so on.


That is interesting. Especially the Parent part.

quote:

just a bunch of pervs making too much noise about it and trying by any means to look greater than we are to give more importance to what, basically, is nothing more than primordial animal grade sex and power related behavior.


I'm not seeing this. Most people are playing down any spiritual aspect. Those that are admiting to it are not claiming they are particularly special because of it.

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:35:33 PM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:

to use the comparison of one of most famous and respected Tantrics who, incidentally, was celibate, it is like trying to enter a palace from a back entrance where the garbage is thrown out


than again I just remembered an incident with the same tantric saint when a lady said (after being encouraged to focus her mind more exclusiveli on God) that she can not stop thinking about her husband whom she adores too much finally conceded that this too is a path. So, who knows. Though I don't think our kind ow service and worship is what it was abut :D 

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:48:32 PM   
Lorenzo19


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Many keep playing down the importancce of sexuality and D/s BDSM life style. I sort of agree. but not.
I figure if BDSM and D/s is something you're going to do anyway and possibly a lot. Then why not try to get the spiritual benifit from it?



And Whiplash thanks for the excellent tutorial of the periodic table... Love the Plamsa... (goes off to light the plasma)

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:48:48 PM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:



I'm not seeing this. Most people are playing down any spiritual aspect. Those that are admiting to it are not claiming they are particularly special because of it.

we don't have a final definition of spirituality, but in general it implyes transcending. And what we transcend? Our present state for a supposed higher (more aware, more natural.. whatever) one. And that generally implies going over our "lower" tendencies, sexual ones included. Sexual, emotional or any other attachment is always a hindrance, as that is exactly the thing that is binding us to the world of "samsara", you can not get over it without releasing this desires. Therefore something that it centered on desires of the basic nature is to be overcame in order to transcend, not indulged in.  The exceptions, of course, are those mentioned, "tantric" ones if you will. Attachment can be a tool to, but when this attachment is transferred to the most idealized, most perfect ideal imaginable - God. Or by bringing this idealization down on the object of worship. Or, for a more intellectual than devotional person, by trying to go beyond the world of dualities and even while indulging in it being detached and aware of the real nature of things. In all this instances, however, one does transcend. Even if tantra, while the body indulges, the mind tries to transcend, primitive indulgence is not very useful besides for fulfilling desires and going on with other interests. The classical problem here is of course, that those desiring "transcendence" will probably go by natural approach of discarding what takes them in the opposite way. And those who chose a tantric approach will, generally, do so because they just want to fulfill some more basic desires but than trying to get both things somehow, which usually they don't. Successful vamachara tantrics are a rarity. Haven't seen a single one even in India (tantrics there more often take the role of "black magicians" or "village witches" than saints), certainly not in the west :D

< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 3/5/2010 6:57:31 PM >

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RE: BDSM: Path to Spiritual Enlightenment? - 3/5/2010 6:55:07 PM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorenzo19
I figure if BDSM and D/s is something you're going to do anyway and possibly a lot. Then why not try to get the spiritual benifit from it?


well if one is going to be a junk food eating coach potato heavily smoking alcoholic certainly he should take the best health benefit out of it. I doubt, though, that the benefit will actually be a really healthy and long lasting body in most cases. There are always exceptions of course. However sometimes it seems we just can't have both : )

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