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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Only if the customer is in a position to evaluate the quality. With schools, word of mouth would come from fellow parents with children about the same age. Problems in the education wouldn't show up until decades later.

Not necessarily.  If little Johnny can’t read or find the U.S. on a map that’s a pretty good indicator that something may be wrong.  Every situation will have a different set of variables and so there is no way to predict these things.  Which is why those closest to the situation (the parents) should be the ones to decided rather than being forced into accepting a bad situation. 

• parents who are actively undermining their children's education for ideological/fundamentalist reasons
  
• parents who are for some reason or other disinterested in the children's enducation (for instance, parents with the attitude "Nobody in our family ever went to college" or "You are just a girl, you'll get married anyway").
  
• schools whose funding has been drained by cherrypicking from other schools.

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No. If a particular group's idea of education isn't working out, they don't bear any consequences

Wrong.  But bear in mind that by “not working out” I don’t mean people ending up wandering the streets homeless.  I mean their ability to engage the larger society around them.  Christian fundamentalists may limit their job opportunities but they don’t eliminate them (how many Southern Baptists do you see living on the streets?)  If they are okay with this then fine and dandy and if not, then it’s their problem to solve.

• That is the major difference between the USA and Haiti. The only reason we have been a very wealthy so far is that we have a highly educated population. Change that, and we all will suffer the effects of living in a poor country.
  
• Jobs that don't require education are disappearing. It may be a possible way of life a century ago, but it isn't today.
  
• National security. Do you really want to allow parents to send their children to the equivalent of Madrassas, and then go out in the world to start wars in our name?
  

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Like Thompson before you, you negate free will.  Does every child of religious parents accept that religion?  Does every child of Atheist parents remain an atheist?   

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I do not know what the rules are now but when I went to school in California if you were not eligible for entrance into a four year college out of high school you went to a junior college.  If at the end of your stay at the JC you were eligible for university then you went.  The university did not offer bone head anything.  The JC on the other hand did.

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Then it is obvious that you don't know shit about shit

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What a crock of shit.  I have never negated free will.  I have asked you repeatedly to answer one simple question.
You say that parents have the primary responsibility for the education of their children and I have asked you on several occasions to tell me how much input the state should have.  To date you have danced all around this.

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If the state says that the earth is round and that students must be taught that, does not prevent the parent from teaching also that they think that is wrong but in order to get a diploma from a school which teaches a particular caricula you must be able to answer the questions with the answers that that caricula demands.

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You continue to prattle on about the parents rights but refuse to address the seminal question.

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What a crock of shit.  I have never negated free will.  I have asked you repeatedly to answer one simple question.
You say that parents have the primary responsibility for the education of their children and I have asked you on several occasions to tell me how much input the state should have.  To date you have danced all around this.

I answered it on Post 50 (page 3).

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quote:I don't have a problem with the state requiering basic education - reading, writing, 'rithmatic - but when we start getting into areas of science, religion, history, etc - areas of deeply held personal conviction, it is quite another matter.

How does the above quote answer this question?
You say that parents have the primary responsibility for the education of their children and I have asked you on several occasions to tell me how much input the state should have.  To date you have danced all around this.
Please try to be specific.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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How does the above quote answer this question?
You say that parents have the primary responsibility for the education of their children and I have asked you on several occasions to tell me how much input the state should have.  To date you have danced all around this.
Please try to be specific.

 



basic education - reading, writing, 'rithmatic
 
If the state want to offer other classes, fine - but they should not be required. 

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Yes, if little Johnny can't read, find the USA on a map or know what evolution is, it's a good indication that something is wrong. More often than not, it's not the school. It's usually one of three things:

parents who are actively undermining their children's education for ideological/fundamentalist reasons
parents who are for some reason or other disinterested in the children's enducation (for instance, parents with the attitude "Nobody in our family ever went to college" or "You are just a girl, you'll get married anyway").
schools whose funding has been drained by cherrypicking from other schools.
Notice that in two of the cases, those "closest to the situation" are utterly unable to evaluate the quality of the education because they are the very cause of the problem in the first place.

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Quite a few homeless Southern Baptists, as well as Mormons (I know one personally) and all other religions - why wouldn't there be?

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On "their problem to solve" we very fundamentally part company, for quite a few reasons:

That is the major difference between the USA and Haiti. The only reason we have been a very wealthy so far is that we have a highly educated population. Change that, and we all will suffer the effects of living in a poor country.
Jobs that don't require education are disappearing. It may be a possible way of life a century ago, but it isn't today.

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National security. Do you really want to allow parents to send their children to the equivalent of Madrassas, and then go out in the world to start wars in our name?

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There is no such thing as free will without a good education.

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If you don't know what options are available, you don't have a way to make a meaningful decision.

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If you were only requiring the 3Rs, you could let them out after 8th grade.

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Back in the day (19th century), you'd get the 3Rs along with geography and history.

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All parents know better than the school about geography?
All parents know better than the school about chemestry?
All parents know better than the school about physics?
All parents know better than the school about foriegn languages?
All parents know better than the school about music composition?
All parents know better than the school about history?
You know the list can go on for pages so please explane why the average parent should have supremacy over the school board about caricula that they have no expertise in?
Why is it that a school may not construct caricula that addresses the subject but must instead be burdened with input from people with no knowledge of the subject?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b



You just can't break out of your narrow mindset, can you?

Never mind.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Yes, if little Johnny can't read, find the USA on a map or know what evolution is, it's a good indication that something is wrong. More often than not, it's not the school. It's usually one of three things:
parents who are actively undermining their children's education for ideological/fundamentalist reasons
parents who are for some reason or other disinterested in the children's enducation (for instance, parents with the attitude "Nobody in our family ever went to college" or "You are just a girl, you'll get married anyway").
schools whose funding has been drained by cherrypicking from other schools.
Notice that in two of the cases, those "closest to the situation" are utterly unable to evaluate the quality of the education because they are the very cause of the problem in the first place.

In the first case, who decides what is or is not ideology?  One person’s ideology is another person’s truth.  Who the fuck are you to decide what is or is not truth for other people?

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In the second case once a person reaches the age of adulthood, they are perfectly free to go to collage and marry or not marry who they choose.

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In the third case, if the school is loosing funding due to lack of students then they must not be doing a very good job – perhaps they should try harder.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Quite a few homeless Southern Baptists, as well as Mormons (I know one personally) and all other religions - why wouldn't there be?

I didn’t say there weren’t any.  I asked how many.  Not a lot from what I can see.  You haven’t been tripping over them in the street, have you?

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On "their problem to solve" we very fundamentally part company, for quite a few reasons:
That is the major difference between the USA and Haiti. The only reason we have been a very wealthy so far is that we have a highly educated population. Change that, and we all will suffer the effects of living in a poor country.
Jobs that don't require education are disappearing. It may be a possible way of life a century ago, but it isn't today.

Both of these points presume that not requiring the state’s version of education will result in less education.  Do you really have so little faith in your fellow citizens?

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Recently there was an item in the news about a school district – a public school district! - that canceled the prom in order to prevent a lesbian couple from attending.  Should not those parents who disagree with such a discriminatory policy have the right to say “you’re not going to that school anymore; we found a better one, one that is more accepting.”  You seem to think not.

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National security. Do you really want to allow parents to send their children to the equivalent of Madrassas, and then go out in the world to start wars in our name?

This is silly.  You’re doing the same thing Thompson likes to do – push things to the extreme.  A “school” that teaches violence toward others of different beliefs (a violation of other people’s rights) is no school at all.  It would be a terrorist organization.

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If you mean the mindset that causes me no end of enjoyment to watch you try to argue your non-point that "parents should have primary control over their childrens education but that the state can teach the kids readin' riten' n rithmatik and maybe geography and don't have to check with the parents on the caricula" except when you think it should be different....roflmao...

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Ideology isn't truth but opinion. It has no place in schools. Facts have a place in schools.

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By that time it is of course far too late.

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Wrong. When you require one school to accept all students, and allow another school to only cherrypick students with an IQ of at least 120, what do you think is going to happen?

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I haven't been tripping over Atheists in the streets, either.

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Quite honestly, yes.

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History shows that this is exactly what will happen.

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Actually, you got that story backwards. The lesbian couple was Constitutionally protected BECAUSE they were at a public school. The school district TRIED to exclude just the lesbian couple from the prom. A court stepped in and decided that this would be discrimination and protected the lesbian couple. The school district had no choice but to treat all students equally (sadly, in their bigotry, they chose to cancel the prom for everybody - which was still a better outcome than canceling it just for the lesbian couple).

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Private schools are far more egregious in that respect, especially given the fact that they are almost exclusively religious (97% in Ohio, for instance). A private school could have denied that couple an education by expelling them - and they routinely, and legally, expel students for the mere suspicion of being gay.

Show me the "better, more accepting" private schools!

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Our Constitution guarantees religious freedom, and if the more extremist Christian schools are allowed, then it follows that Madrassas are also allowed as long as they teach the three Rs that you so insist on.

Madrassas don't teach violence and aren't terrorist organizations any more than fundamentalist Christian schools do; they simply focus on the Koran or Bible.

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Here you seem to be saying that you have the right to determine what is taught in schools. Please make up your mind?
First parents have the primary right.
But not if they are teaching what you don't like.
Do you just open your mouth to change feet?