RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Submissive



Message

lucylucy -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 7:33:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
The legal standing, yes, the fact that both partners are making a legally binding vow to spend forever with that person.

In general though, if two people are legally able to be married, I think that all other things being equal, the couple that gets married and legally joins their lives together as a family is in a more "serious" relationship than the couple who are identical in every way except unwilling to take that last step.

Also in that vein a legal marriage give each a legally binding claim on the other that doesn't exist in a LTR.

Even the term LTR does not connote the permanence that marriage does.

Elisabella and osf,

I understand what you're saying, but personally, I completely disagree. Marriage may have a connotation of permanence, but really, how many marriages are permanent? I can say I'm with my Owner forever as much as I want, but when it comes right down to it, I can't predict how we and our relationship will change over time. Right now, I absolutely mean it when I say I will be with him forever. I also 100% meant it when I told my ex-husband that. We were together for 20 years and are now divorced. Our relationship was very serious--for 20 years. 20 years is a long time, but it sure isn't forever.

As for the legal stuff, I can make my Owner my beneficiary on my life insurance and in my will. We share a credit card. We can own real estate, cars, and other expensive things together. He's legally named as my end-of-life-decision-maker (sorry--can't remember the legal term for that). Our lives are financially entangled. A married couple has more legal obligations to each other in the event of a break up than a LTR couple does, but I find it very strange--and terribly depressing--to think that the way a relationship ends (especially when part of the argument is that "marriage" connotes permanence) determines its level of seriousness.

Does the fact that I'm not interested in marriage make me less "serious" as a partner? I don't think so, not one bit. I'm not interested in what others think of my relationship. I don't want or need society's stamp of approval on my relationship to feel pride in it. This isn't a "hard limit" for me. If my Owner felt strongly about being married, I would marry him. Luckily for me, he's ok with my feelings about marriage.



osf -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 7:50:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
The legal standing, yes, the fact that both partners are making a legally binding vow to spend forever with that person.

In general though, if two people are legally able to be married, I think that all other things being equal, the couple that gets married and legally joins their lives together as a family is in a more "serious" relationship than the couple who are identical in every way except unwilling to take that last step.

Also in that vein a legal marriage give each a legally binding claim on the other that doesn't exist in a LTR.

Even the term LTR does not connote the permanence that marriage does.

Elisabella and osf,

I understand what you're saying, but personally, I completely disagree. Marriage may have a connotation of permanence, but really, how many marriages are permanent? I can say I'm with my Owner forever as much as I want, but when it comes right down to it, I can't predict how we and our relationship will change over time. Right now, I absolutely mean it when I say I will be with him forever. I also 100% meant it when I told my ex-husband that. We were together for 20 years and are now divorced. Our relationship was very serious--for 20 years. 20 years is a long time, but it sure isn't forever.

As for the legal stuff, I can make my Owner my beneficiary on my life insurance and in my will. We share a credit card. We can own real estate, cars, and other expensive things together. He's legally named as my end-of-life-decision-maker (sorry--can't remember the legal term for that). Our lives are financially entangled. A married couple has more legal obligations to each other in the event of a break up than a LTR couple does, but I find it very strange--and terribly depressing--to think that the way a relationship ends (especially when part of the argument is that "marriage" connotes permanence) determines its level of seriousness.

Does the fact that I'm not interested in marriage make me less "serious" as a partner? I don't think so, not one bit. I'm not interested in what others think of my relationship. I don't want or need society's stamp of approval on my relationship to feel pride in it. This isn't a "hard limit" for me. If my Owner felt strongly about being married, I would marry him. Luckily for me, he's ok with my feelings about marriage.




Let me make more clear what i meant, marriage gives you a legal claim to aspects of the other ie community property and medical care that is not up to the good graces of the other.

And the term Long term relationship lacks the idea of permanence to me


All that being said, I do believe the real longevity of any relationship is up to the individuals but marriage does give an added boost in longevity though an artificial one



catize -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 9:16:49 AM)

There are many instances where people may be legally bound, yet act only in their own interests rather than committing to the relationship and their partner. IMO, “real” is defined by the fact that both partners choose to focus on what they have together, enhance it, grow together and are happy with the way things are between them. Married....or not......is irrelevant.



osf -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 10:04:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

There are many instances where people may be legally bound, yet act only in their own interests rather than committing to the relationship and their partner. IMO, “real” is defined by the fact that both partners choose to focus on what they have together, enhance it, grow together and are happy with the way things are between them. Married....or not......is irrelevant.


if there are assets in common such as a business, property and maybe children then being married would be one more hassel in dissolving the relationship, never said being legally married made the relationship better



LadyPact -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 1:45:14 PM)

-Using fast reply-

Sentence one - The author of the phrase in the profile feels that way.  Fantastic!  That's how it works for them.  My reality is a little different.

Sentence two -  I think you may have some varying answers, especially for those of us who have D/s as a secondary relationship.  Among the monogamous folks, I'd be very surprised if there was any substantial difference.

Sentence three - I'd be more concerned with the way people felt about each other and interacted together than what the state puts their seal of approval on.  If secondary relationships could also be sanctioned by law, clip and I probably would have done it already.


In the style of the late Nipsy Russell:

Always remember and never forget,
It's not necessarily true just because of one person's opinion on the internet.



Elisabella -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 3:38:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

I understand what you're saying, but personally, I completely disagree. Marriage may have a connotation of permanence, but really, how many marriages are permanent? I can say I'm with my Owner forever as much as I want, but when it comes right down to it, I can't predict how we and our relationship will change over time. Right now, I absolutely mean it when I say I will be with him forever. I also 100% meant it when I told my ex-husband that. We were together for 20 years and are now divorced. Our relationship was very serious--for 20 years. 20 years is a long time, but it sure isn't forever.


Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage. My LTR failure rate is probably in the low to mid 90% range.

While I do think that a divorce shouldn't be so easy to obtain, I also think that the high divorce rate is often touted to prove marriage as an instutution is a failure, since half of all marriages end, but then again I'd say 90-95% of all non-married relationships end, so that kind of puts it into perspective.

quote:

As for the legal stuff, I can make my Owner my beneficiary on my life insurance and in my will. We share a credit card. We can own real estate, cars, and other expensive things together. He's legally named as my end-of-life-decision-maker (sorry--can't remember the legal term for that). Our lives are financially entangled. A married couple has more legal obligations to each other in the event of a break up than a LTR couple does, but I find it very strange--and terribly depressing--to think that the way a relationship ends (especially when part of the argument is that "marriage" connotes permanence) determines its level of seriousness.


I never said anything about legal obligations at the end of a marriage, I said that I view a legal vow made in front of God and country to be more serious than a "forever" said in bed.

quote:

Does the fact that I'm not interested in marriage make me less "serious" as a partner?


It would mean that to me, which is why I never pursued a relationship with a person who wasn't interested in marriage. It doesn't mean anything objectively, but subjectively I would say that yes there might be people who would not want to get involved with you if you didn't share their beliefs about marriage.

quote:


I don't think so, not one bit. I'm not interested in what others think of my relationship. I don't want or need society's stamp of approval on my relationship to feel pride in it. This isn't a "hard limit" for me. If my Owner felt strongly about being married, I would marry him. Luckily for me, he's ok with my feelings about marriage.


Well that's fine, I don't particularly "disapprove" of your relationship, in fact it doesn't affect me at all, I was answering the OP based on my personal beliefs about my personal relationships and I have no intention of telling anyone they're wrong for doing it differently, but as far as my worldview goes, to me marriage is the ultimate form of commitment for anyone who can get legally married.

And just on a tangent, I'm seriously bothered by the fact that a few hundred dollars can buy a "we just don't like each other anymore" divorce yet politicians say that gay marriage would destroy the "sanctity" of the institution. WTF.



PeonForHer -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 3:56:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I never said anything about legal obligations at the end of a marriage, I said that I view a legal vow made in front of God and country to be more serious than a "forever" said in bed." of the institution. WTF.


That's interesting.  To me, a 'forever' said in bed to a partner would be more serious than a legal vow made 'in front of God and country'.  Re God - he/she/it would, presumably, hear and see my vow anyway if he/she/it existed.  Re 'country' - well, that's just a bunch of people who happen to share the same land-mass as me.  They simply don't matter. 

Still, like you, I'm not foisting my views on people just because they happen to be my views.  Still less would I foist them on people because they're what I consider to be the 'traditional', therefore self-evidently 'correct', views. 



LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 7:49:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

There are many instances where people may be legally bound, yet act only in their own interests rather than committing to the relationship and their partner. IMO, “real” is defined by the fact that both partners choose to focus on what they have together, enhance it, grow together and are happy with the way things are between them. Married....or not......is irrelevant.


if there are assets in common such as a business, property and maybe children then being married would be one more hassel in dissolving the relationship, never said being legally married made the relationship better


Ah, but when there are assets in common such as business, property or children, the end of a long term relationship is really no different legally than a marriage. The same arguments will come into play.....

Who did what in the business and should therefore get a larger "share?"
How was the property paid for and who shall remain in said property?
Who retains physical custody of the children and how much should the non custoday pay?

Those issues aren't going to be any different if the couple is married or not married. In some cases, there will be "support" paid to one regardless of there never being a marriage (y'all have heard of "palimony," right?)

Given my work in Family Law, one would think that I am totally against marriage and the hassels and heartaches it could bring. Like Elisabella, I believe that divorce is sometimes too easy to obtain. On the same token, why should people be forced to remain together and miserable.

I do, however, dispute the statistics that Elisabella gives. Yes, statistics show that approximately 50% of marriage end in divorce. But how are those statistics obtained? Quite obviously, someone (thank goodness not me) looks at all the marriage licenses obtained in a state and then looks at all the divorces obtained in the state. Given that many people move from state to state, these numbers could be a bit skewed. Think of California (specifically Hollywood). Many people are not getting married in the municipality they actually reside in. Therefore, they have a marriage license from a different municipality (or even country). I know someone who got married on a cruise ship in Miami. Her marriage license is from Miami, not New Jersey. So when all these celebrities are getting divorced, their marriage licenses are from other places, so the statistics can be skewed.

Regardless of that, the concept that 90-95% of long term relationships end is just as skewed. After all, it would account for all the college kids who date during college, and any number of other things, which may include death.

At the end of the day there is only one thing that most seem to agree on. The commitment of the relationship is based on the people in the relationship. Nowadays, a lot of "older" people choose not to get married. There are good reasons for these decisions, especially among the senior citizens in areas where there aren't domestic partnership laws. Marriage for them results in the loss of social security income, and sharing of assets that want to be disposed of in another manner.

When all is said and done, the people involved in the relationship are as serious or as superficial as they choose to be. Their partner is as important or unimportant as they decide. I was married once, and it ended badly. Right now, I don't have the desire to marry my partner of 14 years (which by the way has lasted longer than most marriages). However, at some point down the road, if it made financial sense for us to make that decision, it might happen. Of course, that also means that on some level, I would be marrying for the financial and beneficial gains we each would derive from that legality, not for our love or commitment. Yet our love and commitment wouldn't be enhanced or diminished by the marriage.

To me, we should all have respect for everyone who manages to make their relationship work. Whether it is Elisabella's marriage, lucylucy's simple cohabitation or LadyPact's poly situation. Each is completely happy with their situations, and not one of them is better than the others, just different.



CalifChick -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 8:05:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce.  (snip)  ... half of all marriages end


I know LL touched on this, but it really is an untrue statement that gets repeated alot.  The number of divorces in any year is roughly equal to half of the number of new marriages.  That is a far cry from half of marriages end.

If no one is married, and every year 10 couples get married and 5 couples divorce, then at the end of year one there is 5 marriages. 

At the end of year two there are 10 marriages.

At the end of year three there are 15 marriages, but only 5 divorces occurred... does that mean the divorce rate is now 33 1/3 percent?

At the end of year four there are 20 marriages, and 5 divorces... but the divorce rate hasn't dropped to 25 percent.

Statistics and percentages are kind of funny that way.

Cali



mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 8:21:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

Ahh,no sex,but you have to take the garbage out?
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia

i've always thought of it as being just the same as a marriage (minus the nasty divorce)

*GRINZ*





sex is over-rated anyway (regardless what people say)



LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 8:22:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Statistics and percentages are kind of funny that way.

Cali



Statistics are hysterical! They can be manipulated just about any way the statistician chooses to get the desired result. The same divorce rate has been quoted for what now? About 20 years?

As for the statistics about "long term relationships," there is no accurate way to even count them let alone reach a conclusion as to how many are ending. Theoretically, a "long term relationship" ends when the parties get married. After all they have just changed categories.



lucylucy -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 8:43:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage.


Umm, no, that's not how the math works out.

quote:


I never said anything about legal obligations at the end of a marriage, I said that I view a legal vow made in front of God and country to be more serious than a "forever" said in bed.

What I said about the legal obligations at the end of a marriage was for osf, not you.

quote:

And just on a tangent, I'm seriously bothered by the fact that a few hundred dollars can buy a "we just don't like each other anymore" divorce yet politicians say that gay marriage would destroy the "sanctity" of the institution. WTF.

I am 100% with you on the tangent! Actually, when I think of the couples I know who have been together for a long time, about half are married couples and about half are unmarried LTRs. Of the unmarried LTRs, about half are gay couples that would marry if they could.

Also, you're probably right that some people might not want to be involved with me because I'm not interested in marriage, but there's probably a flip side to that, too. My question wasn't about does it make me less attractive, which I think is what you're addressing, but rather, less serious.



cloudboy -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 9:30:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


does being socially sanctioned make marriage more real?


Just ask Michelle Marvin about it.



Elisabella -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 10:05:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce.  (snip)  ... half of all marriages end


I know LL touched on this, but it really is an untrue statement that gets repeated alot.  The number of divorces in any year is roughly equal to half of the number of new marriages.  That is a far cry from half of marriages end.

If no one is married, and every year 10 couples get married and 5 couples divorce, then at the end of year one there is 5 marriages. 

At the end of year two there are 10 marriages.

At the end of year three there are 15 marriages, but only 5 divorces occurred... does that mean the divorce rate is now 33 1/3 percent?

At the end of year four there are 20 marriages, and 5 divorces... but the divorce rate hasn't dropped to 25 percent.

Statistics and percentages are kind of funny that way.

Cali



Wow, thank you for that, I didn't actually know that. It definitely seems to be portrayed wrong in media, but then again media rely on shocking headlines so I probably shouldn't have taken it at face value [;)]



Elisabella -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/7/2010 10:12:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage.


Umm, no, that's not how the math works out.


It is though, barring polyamorous relationships that would muck up the math, only one relationship can last until you die. So if I have 2 relationships in my whole life, and the second one lasts til I die, I have a 50% breakup rate. If I have 10 partners, I have a 90% breakup rate.

Obviously it's not a direct comparison to the divorce rate which gives an average for everyone, not just the individual, but I'd be willing to wager that the "breakup rate" for committed relationships that are intended to be long term is higher than 50% - that is, there is a higher percentage of non-married LTR's that end than non-married LTR's that last until death.



osf -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/8/2010 5:02:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage.


Umm, no, that's not how the math works out.


It is though, barring polyamorous relationships that would muck up the math, only one relationship can last until you die. So if I have 2 relationships in my whole life, and the second one lasts til I die, I have a 50% breakup rate. If I have 10 partners, I have a 90% breakup rate.

Obviously it's not a direct comparison to the divorce rate which gives an average for everyone, not just the individual, but I'd be willing to wager that the "breakup rate" for committed relationships that are intended to be long term is higher than 50% - that is, there is a higher percentage of non-married LTR's that end than non-married LTR's that last until death.



I always thought and observed that our chances of a lifetime commitment were extremely low, there seems to be so much more to go wrong in our relationships than in vanilla ones.




lucylucy -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/8/2010 6:05:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage.


Umm, no, that's not how the math works out.

It is though, barring polyamorous relationships that would muck up the math, only one relationship can last until you die.

This has nothing to do with poly.

The 50% divorce rate (which has already been debunked anyway, but forget that for now) does not say anything about whether the person you marry is the ONLY LTR you've ever been in. So that's your first mistake. I could have several LTRs before I get married, and I think that's what most people nowadays do. It's kind of unusual to marry your high school sweetheart these days.

It also doesn't limit the number of failed marriages you can have. If I get married once and that marriage has a 50% failure rate and it does in fact fail, I can marry a second time and that new marriage will also have a 50% failure rate. The odds stay at 50% with every new marriage. I could be Gsa Gsa Gabor and keep marrying and divorcing. Every new marriage has the same 50% failure possibility.

When I got married, I had already had 2 LTRs. I was married for 20 years. I'm now in an LTR. I could get married tomorrow and make a "lifetime commitment," but I would STILL have all those LTRs in my background. I'm pretty sure that pattern is fairly normal. I have many friends in their 30s who married after 2-5 LTRs failed.

Of course it's all moot because the 50% thing doesn't quite work out at 50%, but there is nothing about any failure rate you could slap on marriage that indicates how many LTRs a person could have.



roland23 -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/8/2010 8:04:30 AM)

Since my divorce from a militantly vanilla woman in 1993, all of my d/s relationships have been more rewarding and more open. They have also lasted over time and distance.



crazyml -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/8/2010 8:33:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Which means that if the average person has more than 2 relationship partners in their lifetime, the "failure rate" for a LTR is higher than marriage.


Umm, no, that's not how the math works out.


It is though, barring polyamorous relationships that would muck up the math, only one relationship can last until you die. So if I have 2 relationships in my whole life, and the second one lasts til I die, I have a 50% breakup rate. If I have 10 partners, I have a 90% breakup rate.

Obviously it's not a direct comparison to the divorce rate which gives an average for everyone, not just the individual, but I'd be willing to wager that the "breakup rate" for committed relationships that are intended to be long term is higher than 50% - that is, there is a higher percentage of non-married LTR's that end than non-married LTR's that last until death.



I always thought and observed that our chances of a lifetime commitment were extremely low, there seems to be so much more to go wrong in our relationships than in vanilla ones.




What the fuck have you done with the real osf???

You can't be the same osf I've learned to know and love - these posts are cogent, thoughtful, even interesting - with nary a trace of jakass to them.

It's a welcome change and all - but part of me misses the old osf ;-)



LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you think a d/s relationship is any less real than marriage (3/8/2010 11:04:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

I always thought and observed that our chances of a lifetime commitment were extremely low, there seems to be so much more to go wrong in our relationships than in vanilla ones.




Besides the fact that your view is very pessimistic, probably causing the demise of the relationship anyway since there is an expectation of failure, what would make you think that there is more to go wrong in a D/s relationship?




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625