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Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:36:38 AM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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Ok, so this has been bugging me for a while.

I got a memo some time ago from a guy asking me to dominate his girlfriend-the idea was that she would undress and blindfold herself in a hotel room, at which point the Domme (theoretically me) was supposed to enter with the guy-the girlfriend wouldn't be told that there was another person in the room until both the Domme and the boyfriend were touching her at once.

I told him in no uncertain terms that there was no way in hell I would do this, because of the consent issues-how could his girlfriend consent to me being there if she didn't know I was there at all?

His response was that the surprise was a part of a long-term fantasy of hers that he was trying to make come true. He didn't seem to have a back-up plan for what to do if it turned out that she wasn't as keen on the reality as she was on the fantasy.

I was pretty rude to him-this was one of the few times I've actually got angry on Collarme. He said I was being overly paranoid, and that he loved his girlfriend and would never do anything to hurt her.

I guess I'm now starting to wonder if I overreacted. Do you guys think that this was a reasonable request? Would there have been a way of doing this safely?

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Post #: 1

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:46:58 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I do not know if I would have gotten angry... that would depend on the conversations.

I would probably have come to the same conclusions as you, although I would hope that he was really trying to live out her fantasy...

I may recommend that he find a domme that they both could befriend so that the domme could get to know her before this happened, although this might negate a stranger fantasy, it would protect all those involved....

That situation could not only be ethically terrible, but legally jeopardizing

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:54:05 AM

VaguelyCurious

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Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not know if I would have gotten angry... that would depend on the conversations.

I think that's what is bothering me-I shouldn't have allowed myself to get angry.

quote:

I would probably have come to the same conclusions as you, although I would hope that he was really trying to live out her fantasy...

I think he was genuine-he just seemed to have no plan for if she reacted badly.

quote:

I may recommend that he find a domme that they both could befriend so that the domme could get to know her before this happened, although this might negate a stranger fantasy, it would protect all those involved....

He anticipated that suggestion, and said that they didn't know any attractive women who were both dominant/switchy and single.

quote:

That situation could not only be ethically terrible, but legally jeopardizing

That is prettymuch what I figured-thanks for the input, Julia.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:54:57 AM

UniqueRaven

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
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i just can't see this as turning out well. So many women have fantasies that they don't really want to actually ever act out. And it has been my experience that when a man is saying he "wants to make his girlfriend's fantasy come true" he's really saying that he wants to make his fantasy come true.

i can't say since i'm on the s-side of things if i would have done it. But i would think that making friends and taking a great deal of time getting to know at least him, if not her too, would be necessary before acting out such a thing.

Signing up for any activity with strangers in a hotel room is on my "no deal" list for a reason - you never know what you're getting into. Heck, this may not be true, but how do you know that his fantasy wasn't to lure a Domme into a hotel room where she gets jumped and gang-raped by his buddies who want to "convert" her? You just don't know what's going to happen.

Lots of downside with very little upside. Maybe you could have handled it a little less angrily, but in my opinion you did the right thing.

edited b/c i forgot something.

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 3/5/2010 10:56:21 AM >

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:55:30 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
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From: Washington, DC area
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I don't play with people I don't know... "know" is a relative term... but you get the idea

I actually think its an unreasonable request... kinda nuts actually, for you but also really unsafe for the couple. What if you're an ax murderer just waiting for this kind of opening?

I find it amazing that people make these kinds of requests to strangers on the internet, but I get them too.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 10:59:59 AM

Lockit

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I had someone contact me a while back and he was really into playing with just about anyone. Of course I let him know I wasn't interested and gave detail. He emails me a couple weeks ago, basically asking me to take part in the same type of surprise for a switch he has been playing with. I did an eye roll because he ought to know better per our previous conversations, but I felt the same way about it that you did, except I wasn't angry. He's a player with few ethic's in my opinion.

What bother's me the most is that I would be a stranger to this person and if I took part it would or could put me in a situation legally. How do I know he wasn't on a first date with her? I am not a partner in crime even if it isn't a crime. To first think of me as a play toy to enhance their play is rather rude. To expect a stranger to place themselves in that position is rather stupid. We are supposed to trust a stranger asking us to get kinky with two strangers in a motel. Yeah... right! lol

What hits us as wrong I think is that this gf/play partner may have this fantasy and then again, they may not. It goes against how we feel about consent and it can be an instant reject based on personal experiences as well.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 11:07:04 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I guess I'm now starting to wonder if I overreacted.

You didn't.

quote:

Do you guys think that this was a reasonable request?

It was a reasonable request, but an unreasonable plan.

quote:

Would there have been a way of doing this safely?

I've been involved in a few 'fantasy fulfillment' scenes over the years. I never involved myself in any where I didn't have either first hand knowledge of the subject or met and spoke with them directly.

The problem is many people have fantasies, many share them with boyfriends/girlfriends. However, many are meant to always remain fantasy. Even with the tacit approval and understanding, you never know how the person will react to the fantasy becoming reality. Better to have had a little chat over coffee and make sure the boyfriend's representation is accurate. You don't have to cover the details, but it's easy to paint some broad strokes - the broadest being you're participation. Based upon her reaction go from there.

It takes confidence and trust to be a dominant. Not only self confidence, but at least a minimum of confidence and trust in the submissive. Personally I would never base my participation on someone else's knowledge of a submissive. If he said; "she likes nipple clamps and enjoys a hard spanking!". Do you take out clover clamps, alligator clips, or wooden clothes pins; "hard" means what? Unlike words like 'submissive', 'slave', 'dom', or 'doormat'; "likes nipple clamps" needs to have a common definition between the people involved.

Trust me, that discussion never spoiled the surprise aspect. Often it built up the experience and created nervous tension which transitioned into sexual erotic energy.

Here's another consideration. You are there to serve. Can you handle that? You are on the giving end of sensation as the Domme; but ultimately the boyfriend and you are serving to placate a fantasy fulfillment experience for the submissive. Not that there is anything wrong, or less fun in doing so; but it's another ground rule to cover. Who's the ultimate 'master' of the scene; the boyfriend, the girl, or you, and how far can you take it? Are you comfortable with whatever role you are assigned? Personally that is not something I'd want to find out or could only determine once she is tied and blindfolded and I walk into the room.

In my opinion only - of course.

It could go great and everyone shares breakfast in bed the next morning. You'll have a better chance of that happening if you don't walk into the scene cold.

Have FUN! Good Luck!

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 7

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 11:17:32 AM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It takes confidence and trust to be a dominant. Not only self confidence, but at least a minimum of confidence and trust in the submissive. Personally I would never base my participation on someone else's knowledge of a submissive. If he said; "she likes nipple clamps and enjoys a hard spanking!". Do you take out clover clamps, alligator clips, or wooden clothes pins; "hard" means what? Unlike words like 'submissive', 'slave', 'dom', or 'doormat'; "likes nipple clamps" needs to have a common definition between the people involved.

I hadn't even thought about that-I stopped thinking about potential ramifications waaay before I got to that level.

I'm so glad I said no to this.

quote:

Trust me, that discussion never spoiled the surprise aspect. Often it built up the experience and created nervous tension which transitioned into sexual erotic energy.

That's a good point, and it's something I'll definitely bring up if I ever end up in this situation again.

quote:

Here's another consideration. You are there to serve. Can you handle that? You are on the giving end of sensation as the Domme; but ultimately the boyfriend and you are serving to placate a fantasy fulfillment experience for the submissive. Not that there is anything wrong, or less fun in doing so; but it's another ground rule to cover. Who's the ultimate 'master' of the scene; the boyfriend, the girl, or you, and how far can you take it? Are you comfortable with whatever role you are assigned? Personally that is not something I'd want to find out or could only determine once she is tied and blindfolded and I walk into the room.

Again, thankyou-something else to consider in the future.

quote:

It could go great and everyone shares breakfast in bed the next morning. You'll have a better chance of that happening if you don't walk into the scene cold.

Have FUN! Good Luck!

In all honesty, I'm not sure if this is ever going to be my cup of tea kinkwise, but thankyou for talking it through with me so I have a better idea of how to deal if I ever change my mind :-)

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Post #: 8

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 11:34:46 AM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

I guess I'm now starting to wonder if I overreacted. Do you guys think that this was a reasonable request? Would there have been a way of doing this safely?

Personally, I think your concern is a legitimate one, and of course if you don't feel ok with it, then you did the right thing by not going forward with it.

I don't think there's any such thing as an "over reaction" in this type of situation. There is only the reaction that feels "right" to you.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 9

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 11:41:14 AM

MichiganHeadmast

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I may recommend that he find a domme that they both could befriend so that the domme could get to know her before this happened, although this might negate a stranger fantasy, it would protect all those involved....

Excellent advice.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 12:19:54 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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Threesomes are fucking complicated especially for the reasons Merc stated. If you don't care about the other people involved and just care about getting yours, then it is a lot simpler.

As Merc said, doing a scene without knowing the people well is tricky and a recipe for disaster or at least a dice roll. I have had that stuff go WAY south but having had a fair amount of experience doing that sort of stuff, I have pulled it off at times.

A few weeks back I did a scene that was very dicey and all in all it turned out okay...but it was touch or go.

I have a woman who is in service to me, I wasn't playing with her but with another who this would be the third time we played. I had her in a sex sling, naked and was beating the fuck out of her, caning her cunt and thighs, etc. A friend who is a sadistic Domme came in and I motioned her to get me a towel as the woman was going to squirt and I didn't want a mess. She has played with the woman I had in the sling and her and I are good long time friends and I know that she is very aware of where others heads are at and so I asked her, in the middle of the scene with no negotiation with the bottom, if she wanted to co-top with me. She just smiled and we started spanking, biting, and hurting the fuck out of this woman. The dungeon had been empty but filled rapidly. The girl was screaming, probably because I had my teeth about 2/3 through her nipple and at one point she screamed "do you fucking file those things" and the other domme and I laughed. We were really in sync, the scene was hot, the woman was sobbing and we were having a grand old time.

Now I normally do scenes with RIGID boundaries, I bark at anyone who comes too close, and will yell at people to shut the fuck up if I think they are talking too loud. So this scene was WAY outside my norm, but I felt I had it under control. I look over and the woman who is in service to me is clearly in a bit of emotional distress and I motion her over. She hasn't learned to be very open yet, she is trying, she is making great progress but it is very much a struggle for her and frankly, I can't figure out what is wrong. I figure she is either jealous or feeling something similar. Well my domme friend walks over and starts playing with her, now this girl hasn't been with a woman, NEVER been topped by one let but my domme friend is just being soft and gentle...I kneel down and look the woman in service to me in the eyes and let her know I will stop the scene if she really really needs me to and she shakes her head no.

Now, here is where the art and the lottery angle come in. She says she is fine, but I really have no concrete idea, guesses but thats all they are. So now I have a woman in the sling who is in deep deep subspace, still sobbing, my casual partner...is in a funk...and what to do. I decide to let her deal with her issue and when she can bring it to me...I will deal with it, make it a learning experience for her and I luck out...the whole thing worked out.

But I was at my main group's party in front of my most intimate peers. If that scene had gone south...it would have really fucked with my reputation and the hearts and minds of my two play partners. However, I had laid the emotional groundwork for both of them to be able to deal with this stuff, did a ton of aftercare with both of them laying in and around me afterwards and I made lemonade out of it.

Five or ten years earlier and I would have had women run screaming out of the dungeon, dirty looks from lots of people for being a major asshole and god knows what other fallout.

Most men who set up "fantasies" for their girlfriends have no idea what they are doing.

Like years ago when I did one for one of the great loves of my life. She loved latex gloves, she liked the idea of multiple people. So I did this scene with her standing naked in a room blindfolded. I started touching her, first on her face and then a finger sliding down the back of her calf, on and on like that for a bit, slowly picking up the pace and then her body stiffened. She had noticed that my hands appeared in three places at once...and then I signaled the people helping me to start touching her more and she realized there were a couple of us touching her...I thought it was hot as hell...the people helping me thought it was hot as hell...only problem was she didn't...

This stuff is tricky and you were right to walk away!

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)

Post #: 11

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 12:49:18 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
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You're not party to their chat so can't really say whether or not she's consented - and yeah - you got carried away - "no thanks" would have told a story.

And.....being lined up primarily for someone else's jollies ain't particularly appealing.

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Post #: 12

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 12:57:13 PM

SimplyMichael

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Bitch...get off the fucking computer....lol

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 12:59:20 PM

VaguelyCurious

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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Bitch...get off the fucking computer....lol

He's got a point-getting pissed off with the guy didn't get me anywhere at all, and thinking about it I'm not really too keen on the whole idea either-I suspect I would have ended up feeling used.

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Post #: 14

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 12:59:58 PM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
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LOL.. I'm gonna assume you are talking to moi and NOT Northern Gent!

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 3/5/2010 1:02:13 PM >

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 1:00:48 PM

SimplyMichael

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Its amazing the many ways people can feel used...lol

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 1:02:08 PM

SimplyMichael

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Of course...and well, oh nevermind.

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Post #: 17

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 1:20:51 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

He's got a point-getting pissed off with the guy didn't get me anywhere at all, and thinking about it I'm not really too keen on the whole idea either-I suspect I would have ended up feeling used.

In the broadest possible sense....we're all used to an extent...all providing a service.....only with this one the script was written for you as opposed to by you.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 18

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 3:22:33 PM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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My submissive would find this scenario hot as hell - in reality, not in fantasy. She trusts my judgment. In the scenario you laid out I can understand being reluctant to get involved in this activity with relative strangers and I would have made the same call you did. Having said that, not all D/s couples have to sign a notarized line item veto legal document every time before they play and I feel somewhat sorry for those who do. The problem here was being asked to do this while not knowing these folks better - the problem was not necessarily that she had not specifically consented to each detail of the event. Talk about boring.

quote:

I was pretty rude to him.

I could have mustered the strength to say "No, thank you - not interested" and then moved on.

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Post #: 19

RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/5/2010 4:01:34 PM

GraciousLady

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline

This is from the female perspective of a woman (me) who was in the swinglifestyle for years as both a single woman and a couple. I can't tell you how many times I have been contacted by men who SAY their wives, gf, play pal, fb, w/e is just dieing to do something with another woman, 3rd or couple and it's not true. Either there is no female or she has no idea whats going on. My point is when it comes to sex men often take an idea that is losely based on something a woman says and turns it into what she did not say. Or they make up a woman thinking that will get them laid. You were very correct to decline because you could have been in a very bad situation.

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Post #: 20

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