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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 2:41:31 AM   
Hawkwindblues


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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 9:55:54 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above:

a)  It's an expressed fantasy of HERS.


There is no proof of that. I would think it more likely that it is an expressed fantasy of HIS and he is refusing allowing anyone to get consent from her because he knows she would not give it.



I keep thinking: what if there were hard proof?  I mean, say, a written statement from her, to the effect that she wanted said fantasy to occur and that it would happen some time over the next X weeks/months?

I find myself comparing this set-up to that of the kidnapping issue discussed on the Mistress forum recently . . . .


Unless you knew her and her handwriting the statement could well enough not be by her. Going into this blindly and then discovering she didn't want it could lead to police intervention which no sensible person wants.


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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 11:29:00 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

Ok, so this has been bugging me for a while.

I got a memo some time ago from a guy asking me to dominate his girlfriend-the idea was that she would undress and blindfold herself in a hotel room, at which point the Domme (theoretically me) was supposed to enter with the guy-the girlfriend wouldn't be told that there was another person in the room until both the Domme and the boyfriend were touching her at once.

I told him in no uncertain terms that there was no way in hell I would do this, because of the consent issues-how could his girlfriend consent to me being there if she didn't know I was there at all?

His response was that the surprise was a part of a long-term fantasy of hers that he was trying to make come true. He didn't seem to have a back-up plan for what to do if it turned out that she wasn't as keen on the reality as she was on the fantasy.

I was pretty rude to him-this was one of the few times I've actually got angry on Collarme. He said I was being overly paranoid, and that he loved his girlfriend and would never do anything to hurt her.

I guess I'm now starting to wonder if I overreacted. Do you guys think that this was a reasonable request? Would there have been a way of doing this safely?


It's possible you overreacted.

I had a similar setup with my first slave..She told me of her rape fantasies so as she was speaking I worked out a fun idea in my head and when we were 6 months into out relationship and going at it pretty good I enacted the plan..

I sent her out with her friends without telling her anything about what was going on..She came home drunk lol..I was outside in the shadows of our house waiting on her..Rushed her as she opened the door and the rest is history...It was a lot of fun...Of course I did it in a little safer way our house(Once she realized..wait Master is home why isn't He helping me lol) The whole planning things out can ruin it for some..We both had a great time.

I missed adding this cause I was distracted.....The difference for me would be the third party and not knowing if they were telling the truth or not.

Sometime it pays off depending on the person.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/7/2010 11:41:06 AM >

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 11:39:53 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		An ex of mine was very, very much into the idea of trying things out with another woman.  The fantasies always involved her being submissive, too.  With her boyfriend before me, she talked so avidly about it that, one night, said boyfriend abruptly got out of bed and made a phone call to a particular, bi friend of hers - one whom my ex fancied very much indeed.  My ex leapt out of bed in horror to stop him.  It turned out that he was faking the phone call, after all.

I'd never assume that fantasy and reality are the same thing - and that's most especially true with regard to female partners' sexual fantasies.  A written statement, a recording of her voice saying that this was what she wanted . . . . OK, that would detract from some of the surprise element.  But, I think if were in the OP's shoes, I'd demand that.

But, after the consent issue's all dealt with satisfactorily, there are still all sorts of questions regarding just how much of a buzz someone in the OP's position could get out of it.  I've been in the position before of subbing to a man's wife as a kind of 'birthday present' to her.  The husband's feelings were catered for, hers were; but mine, not at all.  Suffice to say that, for me, the overall experience was pretty hideous.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 6:25:11 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above:

a)  It's an expressed fantasy of HERS.


There is no proof of that.



There's no "proof" this ISN'T true, either.  Hence, what I'd suggested above... that if the OP was interested in this, that they take steps to confirm interest on the girlfriend's part.  Again, adding a periodic third without one partner's knowledge is not that unusual when said partner has expressed an interest in it.

Had a Top come to these forums and posted having set-up this very scenario for his beloved bottom (who'd previously confided having this fantasy), and how wonderfully things went, nobody here would be screaming about "consent".  Instead, people would be praising said Top for giving his bottom such a wonderful gift... to fulfill a fantasy of hers.

None of this is any different from even meeting a perspective Top or bottom online.  If there's mutual interest, then you take whatever steps to help ensure the person isn't full of shit.  Nobody just automatically dismisses the other person because they THINK said person MAY be full of shit.  They usually explore things first before making a decision one way or the other.  NO DIFFERENT HERE... if there was interest in this activity by the OP, then explore things to confirm everying's legit.  If so, then move forward... if not, then kick 'em to the curb.  It wouldn't have been that difficult to determine if the "girlfriend" in the OP's scenario had this fantasy or not, and if she was truly interested in moving it from the realm of fantasy to reality.



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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/7/2010 10:26:39 PM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		To me, the way he reacted would have been a red flag that something was wrong. I probably wouldn't have replied angrily, just blocked him, though. I've played with couples before, but only after talking with both of them, and only in public places (unless we knew each other very well beforehand). IMHO, his getting angry about your discomfort means that he probably doesn't respect her boundaries, either.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 1:11:06 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		I have been asked to do this on many occasions and declined all but one. The reason I declined is not because I worried that it may just be the mans fantasy, thought I have understood that it probably was, but because I wasn't going to be someone else's puppet. The one I did was called 'the offering' and was between 2 good friends. It worked well for us all.
The trouble with people that organize this sort of thing is they have it all worked out to the letter and if your not careful you end up following some sort of ridiculous script. In other words your getting a using and the entire thing will end up feeling staged and silly. If you deviate then you appear to be taking over the scene and the organizer is going to end up feeling like he's lost control. When I did this for friends I was prepared to be second in command and follow his lead. It was a favor from me and nothing more.
There are many things to consider about this sort of thing and the first one is, does she really want to do this? Do I really want to dominate her? I don't just switch my dominance on and off and I have to feel inclined to want to go there with a particular person (not just anyone will do). If its for a good friend, could it jeopardize the friendship? If its for someone you hardly know, how risky is this? Are you prepared to be lead? Are you prepared to feel used? Are you prepared to be rejected when that fantasy becomes reality?

On the other hand I have a fantasy about 2 men. I really hope he puts that together at some point. Im not sure how I will react if he does but I believe it will be positive. I know if he does this then he will be planning it with a scene person and not a local lorry driver. If you can't ask someone on the scene then who the hell can you ask?

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 1:38:02 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

None of this is any different from even meeting a perspective Top or bottom online.  If there's mutual interest, then you take whatever steps to help ensure the person isn't full of shit.  Nobody just automatically dismisses the other person because they THINK said person MAY be full of shit.  They usually explore things first before making a decision one way or the other.  NO DIFFERENT HERE... if there was interest in this activity by the OP, then explore things to confirm everying's legit.  If so, then move forward... if not, then kick 'em to the curb.  It wouldn't have been that difficult to determine if the "girlfriend" in the OP's scenario had this fantasy or not, and if she was truly interested in moving it from the realm of fantasy to reality.



I think I'd still be concerned that she didn't know it was coming, even if I was absolutely convinced she wanted to try it in reality. I've had fantasies that turned out not to live up to the reality-if that happens in this situation then some random woman has already seen this girl in a vulnerable position, maybe touched her, and that's something that she hasn't had the opportunity to say no to, because she hasn't known it was happening.

That thought really bothers me.

And saying that this sort of scene has happened a lot doesn't really help MSLA; a lot of people on this board play with needles, for example-that doesn't mean that just because they stick pointy things in people then I can safely do it too...


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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 2:14:24 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		Pity a potentially sexy encounter ended with angry words before it even started

it would have been nicer if the guy would have understood your point
and if you would have been able to convince him of the necessity for his girlfriend to give you her consent.

it might have been a nice embarrassing get together for her in which she would have had to ask you to play with her... please... witnessed by her boyfriend... then you and the guy could continue to discuss the particulars for a while...
oh lovely... what a pity the whole thing got spoilt

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 4:23:27 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Nobody just automatically dismisses the other person because they THINK said person MAY be full of shit. 


I do. There is no way I would continue talking to someone unless I felt they were rock solid honest. Obviously, your mileage differs.


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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 12:43:35 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

None of this is any different from even meeting a perspective Top or bottom online.  If there's mutual interest, then you take whatever steps to help ensure the person isn't full of shit.  Nobody just automatically dismisses the other person because they THINK said person MAY be full of shit.  They usually explore things first before making a decision one way or the other.  NO DIFFERENT HERE... if there was interest in this activity by the OP, then explore things to confirm everying's legit.  If so, then move forward... if not, then kick 'em to the curb.  It wouldn't have been that difficult to determine if the "girlfriend" in the OP's scenario had this fantasy or not, and if she was truly interested in moving it from the realm of fantasy to reality.



I think I'd still be concerned that she didn't know it was coming, even if I was absolutely convinced she wanted to try it in reality. I've had fantasies that turned out not to live up to the reality-if that happens in this situation then some random woman has already seen this girl in a vulnerable position, maybe touched her, and that's something that she hasn't had the opportunity to say no to, because she hasn't known it was happening.

That thought really bothers me.

And saying that this sort of scene has happened a lot doesn't really help MSLA; a lot of people on this board play with needles, for example-that doesn't mean that just because they stick pointy things in people then I can safely do it too...



All fine and well.  You'd asked in your OP if others thought you'd "overreacted".  My answer is yes, and I've given the reasons why.  If you disagree, then you disagree.  I think it was dismissed without being explored where you may have been able to get answers to your questions.  Any scenario of this nature is going to have a surprise factor... that's the nature of the fantasy.



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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 12:54:10 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Nobody just automatically dismisses the other person because they THINK said person MAY be full of shit. 


I do. There is no way I would continue talking to someone unless I felt they were rock solid honest.



That's kind of a contradiction... first you state you'd dismiss another based only on your initial impression, then you state you'd only continue talking to someone if you felt they were "rock solid honest".  Well, how exactly are you going to feel someone "rock solid honest" if you dismiss them without first talking to them in depth?

Example:  So and so emails... they had spelling errors in their email... you THINK them and idiot because of this, and don't reply.  You have just dismissed someone because you THINK them an idiot.  They may be a genius, but just made some RARE typos... but you'll never know, because your entire impression isn't based on fact; just what you THINK to be fact.  Kinda see what I mean?

Anyway, obviously do what works for you.  The OP asked for feedback, and we've both given our feedback.





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 3/8/2010 1:27:15 PM >

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/8/2010 12:58:01 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Anyway, obviously do what works for you.  The OP asked for feedback, and we've both given our feedback.


And it's appreciated; I'm not sure if I agree with you, but thankyou for  taking the time to talk about it :-)


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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/9/2010 7:40:05 AM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		I'm pretty surprised by the people who think it would have gone well, since he *obviously* doesn't give a crap about her desires, her boundaries, or her comfort. If his response had been more reasoned, and addressed her concerns, then she wouldn't have become angry. She might still have decided not to do it, but him objectifying her and refusing to address her concerns seems to me like a guarantee of a bad time.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/9/2010 9:14:13 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I'm pretty surprised by the people who think it would have gone well, since he *obviously* doesn't give a crap about her desires, her boundaries, or her comfort. If his response had been more reasoned, and addressed her concerns, then she wouldn't have become angry. She might still have decided not to do it, but him objectifying her and refusing to address her concerns seems to me like a guarantee of a bad time.


Most lucid post in the whole thread.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/9/2010 6:30:36 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks, Michael! Oh, and just to clarify, by "her" I was referring to VC, not his submissive.

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/9/2010 8:45:42 PM   
Hawkwindblues


Posts: 183
Joined: 6/26/2009
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		I am allowed to share a story that i try to tell as near to the way it was told to me that is possible.

M. and his then partner, a pro domme, went to a bdsm party. They were there approached by a man, who asked them if they could do together with him a scene with his wife, where she would be dominated by the three of them.

M. and the domme had from the start the feeling that the long hedged phantasy of the wife was unknown to her, but they went with him to her.

To cut the long story short, he ended up dominated by M. and the domme and the wife stayed spectator, M. said they went a bit far with him, because they were angry about the way he wanted to exploit his wife. The wife had no ideas of his plans and did not wanted to be dominated by strangers at a play party. They went not too far with him and M. said he had the distinct feeling, that a dark dream of the man in question came true, but today he would not act in the same way.



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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/12/2010 12:55:39 PM   
EclipseAbove


Posts: 220
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		Given the guy's reaction, I don't think you overreacted at all and made the right decision.

But I could see a similar situation being something that might be a possibility. If the guy had expressed that fulfilling the fantasy had been thoroughly discussed and was greatly desired by the girl, and if he had approached the entire situation expecting you to have concerns, I think it would have been possible to try it. There are many things I woud insist upon, like hearing the girl's consent the minute I walk into the room. I also would set ground rules that at the first hint of an issue from anyone, I'm out. Even with all of that, I think it is still a big stretch and a huge risk because the people were largely unknowns.

< Message edited by EclipseAbove -- 3/12/2010 12:56:37 PM >

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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/13/2010 6:02:25 PM   
MissBeautiful2U


Posts: 98
Joined: 12/5/2008
Status: offline 		Quick reply as I've read through some but not all of the replies.

Given the situation where she would be unaware, if you touched intimately and without consent you could at worst find yourself on legal charges.

I don't think the request would make me angry, but this is how it would go down if I was interested in them and felt he was being truthful about her desire.  I would have him have her in a blindfold, perhaps hands bound as they would normally play, yet still dressed.  I would walk in, sit down and then speak.  I would obtain her consent before touching her.  That way she can still have the surprise of the "unexpected" and perhaps not even get to see me until we were done. 

Yet, I would know it was consensual.  If she said no I would respect her feelings on that matter and probably say something like get her hands undone you a*hole you need to know your girl better than this.  As for how long I'd stay after that moment, would really depend on the atmosphere.  Long enough to know he wasn't gonna be a real dick and do something dumb but not very long.

:)  Personally, I can see the appeal in the anonymous additional person, but consensuality is very important, more important than any fantasy is... and it only takes a couple moments to ensure that it is indeed desired and consented to and you can go on as it had been planned.





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RE: Consent and the Unexpected - 3/14/2010 5:01:43 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissBeautiful2U

I don't think the request would make me angry, but this is how it would go down if I was interested in them and felt he was being truthful about her desire.  I would have him have her in a blindfold, perhaps hands bound as they would normally play, yet still dressed.  I would walk in, sit down and then speak.  I would obtain her consent before touching her.  That way she can still have the surprise of the "unexpected" and perhaps not even get to see me until we were done. 


That's a really good idea-if the situation ever comes up again with someone else I would consider a set-up like this-much safer, but still keeping the element of surprise. :-)



< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 3/14/2010 5:02:05 AM >

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