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social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 6:54:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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In addition to the ACORN threads and those touching on the subject by way of the health care threads, I wondered if it should not be of some benefit to discuss the nature and origins of the social welfare claimant, described as an indolent, malingering freeloader by some and held up as victim of circumstance by others.

I live in an area of my town here in England populated principally by welfare claimants, and its apparent that they come in a wide variety here.

We have the physically disabled, those on sick leave for one reason or another, the mentally ill and the elderly – which few I would hope would believe should not be entitled to claim support from the rest of us through the tax system.

And then we have a whole range of troubled souls, which few employers would so much as consider – those dependent on various substances (alcohol being the most prevalent) and those on parole or with a criminal record. This group crosses into the former quite significantly in that it contains many who are mentally ill for whom their substance abuse is a form of self medication and who often end up in prison as a result of their symptoms. These then are the unemployable.

Then there are the Bangladeshi Muslims who have made this area their home. Aside from those few engaged in the fast food, restaurant or corner shop sectors, this population along with the Pakistani Muslim population generally in the UK features the highest rate of unemployment and benefit dependency by ethnicity/ religion for both males and females. Why this should be so is something rarely discussed, though culture, language difficulty and isolation from the mainstream must play parts in the story.

And we must not forget a large swathe who are trapped on benefits. They could certainly work, but because the work they could get pays little, it would be to their disadvantage to gain employment. And given the uncertainty of such work and the intricacies, delays and complications of getting back onto benefits, the prospect of work is only made more unattractive. Are they malingering freeloaders, or are they merely making a sound economic choice so as to be sure to have a place to live and food to eat? At this level after all, incomes from work do not include any profit. Meanwhile incoming economic migrants take this work because it pays more than they would get at home (often for qualified work), which then leads to discontent about immigration.

Aside then from those in the turnover – inbetween gainful employment prospects – we have identified those who are dependent on benefits. What is notable is that each group identified is hindered in some way by barriers to finding employment, whether these are physical, cultural, behavioural or economic in nature. And we have also seen that though we might discern groups in this way, there is some crossover between them, especially as regards mental illness for which long term unemployment is so often a precursor.

In an economy which for the past thirty years has accepted a historically high unemployment rate and also cut back on services that might have reduced or removed the barriers identified, one must ask what is it that we intend these welfare dependent populations to do, to put their lives back on a more mainstream path? And we must be looking to them to act, for our economic policy and our social policy is certainly of no help to them.

To imagine that we might exclude by one means or another a sizeable proportion of the population, and to do so over two or three generations now, without this having serious deleterious effects on the wider society however, is foolishness at its most obvious. It is not to say that those on social welfare payments are criminal in nature, but it is to say that we risk elevated criminality if we dispose of a large number of people who are thereby left with no stake whatever in a law abiding and civil society.

Where must we then look for why this situation has occurred and why it is that so many observe the welfare dependents amongst us as indolent malingerers whose very existence is a threat to all that is good and holy?

Quite simply it has been successive governments, manipulating and manipulated by market forces with the underlying assumption being throughout that the market is always right and will always deliver the best of worlds, combined with the infamous related idea that “there is no such thing as society”. If we wish then to live in a civilised world, we need examine these two assumptions, that have formed the basis for what is an early 19th century experiment in a more enlightened 20th and 21st century that has failed, and examine also as to why those thrown thereby onto the scrapheap ought to bear the responsibility for the mess we are in rather than those pulling the strings?

And this without looking into the increasing wealth gap and the fall in standard of living for those working in most occupations, for which the government answer is not to examine the situation but to top up their incomes with tax credits and the like.

E


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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 7:12:24 AM   
Moonhead


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I thought Bangladesh hadn't been part of Pakistan for quite a while now?
Sadly, you're right about the rest. Everybody whines about dole scroungers getting something for nothing (which I'm sure anybody who's actually spent any time on JSA or supplementary benefit finds hilarious), but nobody has any suggestions about how to improve the situation. Certainly nobody on the right is taken with the idea of hiking tax bills to pay for more training and education.

Your last point does raise a related matter: having a large chunk of the population is always useful for employers. They can pick and choose more readily, and increased competition for jobs allows them to drop wages and employee benefits. Few companies actually admit it, but most would much prefer the current situation to one where there's full employment.

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 8:09:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


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LE,
You are observing a long term business plan. Distinguished from a 'conspiracy theory' because its a functioning practice.

How do you get otherwise liberal progressive thinking individuals to support corporate welfare? You create a business plan that appears to be serving and assisting the 'underprivileged'. You provide sustenance, housing, and other hand outs. What you don't provide is a method and pathway for achieving self sufficiency. You advance the plan by indoctrinating the youth in education systems that train a mindset, not a mind. You manipulate the dictionary to evolve hand-out into entitlement. You provide support for a minimalist existence; and remove that support in proportion to the individuals attempt for self sufficiency. Getting a part time job - you're benefits are cut. Get married and your single parent benefits reduced. Who benefits?

The answer is the providers of the minimalist existence. Entry level are the 'slum lords'; LLCs, individuals with capital, corporations, and 'charitable institutions'. They all have one goal - profit from housing these people. They own the property, ofter borrowed with government backed funds, the collect money from the renters subsidized by more government money. The intermediate level are the bigger delivery systems; the grocers, and delivery infrastructure who have the majority of their overpriced goods purchased with government food programs. Then there are the big boys, the corporate farms, slaughterhouses.

The poor are needed to pull this off. You can't eliminate them. The 'war on poverty' can't be won and the individual welfare system curtailed or eliminated because it would have the effect of cutting corporate welfare. There are two major lobbies who work hard every day to insure this won't happen; the corporate welfare PACS and the 'good intent' social entitlement program supporters. Strange bedfellows huh?

Which makes it such a beautiful and perfect business plan. Where else can you get liberals pushing to benefit corporate welfare? The military PACs are on there own, the corporate bankers - a pariah. But the multl-level marketing entitlement supporting corporate entities - just watch the support they'll get on this thread. Maybe not directly, but as a pragmatic result of any call to increase, expand, or create a new 'solution'.

A long term business plan that is the envy of any Wharton School graduate.
quote:

Are they malingering freeloaders, or are they merely making a sound economic choice so as to be sure to have a place to live and food to eat? At this level after all, incomes from work do not include any profit. Meanwhile incoming economic migrants take this work because it pays more than they would get at home (often for qualified work), which then leads to discontent about immigration.
Well, the corporations still need cheap labor. Citizens are too entrenched in their entitlements. Like many who have been proud to note it in their personal lives, they are proud to have 'exploited' the system. Not realizing they are the exploited.

Meanwhile, immigrating from a $1/day environment to one which pays $1/hour is a big improvement.
quote:

Where must we then look for why this situation has occurred and why it is that so many observe the welfare dependents among us as indolent malingerers whose very existence is a threat to all that is good and holy?

I used to say education, but their isn't a source to gain it. Too many generations have passed since the 60's and a 'bum' to be pointed out to a child; "You better work hard or that's where you'll end up!", is now a 'poor homeless person' pointed to with a comment; "See what happens if you elect Republicans!" or something similar.

If there is 'hope' it comes from the raw numbers. Although they are still a huge plurality, the middle is being squeezed. They resent both poles; the rich corporate welfare recipients, and the poor welfare recipients. I think more are appreciating the scheme and starting to appreciate that you have to cut off the head - the politicians on the PAC payrolls.

Will it happen - no, in my opinion. Too much rationalized "my side is right!" positions. For the most part I've stopped bothering to comment on the political threads, because I see people supporting decisions and policies they would have condemned if their man wasn't in charge. The inability to be, or consider your position wrong, eliminates the possibility of doing something pragmatically right. I think that creates a hopelessness of change being possible.

The current system guarantees there will always be social welfare dependents. They are necessary. Corporate interests marketed by PACs and paying off the elected officials insure it will continue; benefited by good intending people who only see the human tragedy. Don't get me wrong - I too see and agree there is a human tragedy. However I see it in the naivety of the 'good intending' who have been indoctrinated to think that entitlements are benefiting the individual recipients.

Before they are documented, I'll stipulate that each side can hold up their 'poster child' exceptions.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/8/2010 8:11:52 AM >

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 8:18:05 AM   
pahunkboy


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enter  h1n1.

gitcher shots!   (NOPE!)

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 8:47:52 AM   
LadyEllen


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Crikey Merc - thats about the most sane and well supported argument I've seen from you in months!

I'm not so sure your thinking isnt a bit back to front - I dont think the system is set up this way to specifically produce this result for the benefit of those to whom you ascribe that purpose, (I feel its more a case of "new economics" and a veering away from the "social consience" movement of the late 19th century through to post WWII), but you sure have nailed some important points there as what I'd say is a whole industrial scale activity growing up around the field. The question remains for me though as to whether this activity is symptomatic or causal.

E



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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 9:06:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The question remains for me though as to whether this activity is symptomatic or causal.
You left out a deliberately designed. I guess you could argue whether it was a conscience effort to create the business opportunity or not; but you can't argue that corporate minds took advantage of the conditions.

However, your question is tangential and distracts from the solution. Now you may think here is where we have no common ground. My solution would be to eliminate the corporate welfare payments. No subsidiaries, no prop up pricing, no government purchase of goods and services for redistribution. Couldn't happen. The poster child poor would be bloom like dandelions in spring and it would be the PACs putting their face out there. Not to protect the individuals but to protect their corporate interests. I don't support implementing that practice as it would only work on one half of the equation.

The other half may surprise you. Direct government take over of the source benefits provided. That would mean, government farms, government delivery infrastructure, government stores, government owned housing. Staffed, managed, and serving the same constituency. You want food - work on the farm or at some stage of the delivery process. You want a government backed loan to go to college, your repayment is working at a government facility for a specific term. Want to be a doctor or nurse educated with government paid tuition - you work off your tuition working at a 'free' government health providing facility.

All goods and services provided at 'break even' pay. No 'minimum wage' but you get the entitlements. Want to better yourself - get off the dole. The ambitious, the self sufficient would thrive. The complacent and lazy would be no worse than they are now. The only pockets taking a big hit - the corporate welfare recipients.

The government seems to 'bail out' and focus on failures; making that an attractive goal for both corporate and individuals so inclined to fail. Buy the successes exploiting the system and you have a better chance of breaking the system as well as the philosophy of rewarding failure .

Socialism! So what? To me its seems he socialist fear that label more than I do implementing socialist programs.

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 9:33:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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I am inclined to support "welfare to work" (community work in return for benefits) and I think it could help a lot of people currently trapped on benefits and even those whose barriers are due cultural issues, mental illnesses and substance abuse, because work is actually much more than earning a living really - it opens up interaction with the world, gives a sense of purpose and thereby inspires aspiration.

But I think we have to be careful about how its done, recognising that some may truly be unable, and especially why its done - the Conservatives here are big on it, but one gets the impression this isnt for the sake of the dependents but more for the sake of their "get tough on dole layabouts" core constituency.

As long as it could be effected properly (according to my ideas of properly I'll admit) and for the right reasons, I'd see no problem in extending it as you say to those who want to work off student loans and the like. There would also have to be provision for things like childcare and travel to work of course, which benefits alone wont support, and which would be requisites to enabling it to happen.

There may be one remaining problem though - at least as it relates to the US; that the massive prison population over there apparently (as reported on BBCs QI) is responsible for a huge proportion of US manufacturing as things stand, being competitive globally by way of what is effectively slave labour. Any welfare to work programme would have to tread carefully around the possible issues here and with the potential issues in itself as it impacts the wider labour market - what we do not want is employers paying benefits rather than minimum wage and thereby undercutting some of the workforce as it stands.

E

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 10:16:55 AM   
Aneirin


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For those who live in the UK, there is a programme to be aired tommorrow  on BBC1 at 9.00 pm called ; Famous, Rich and Jobless, it involves a team of wealthy people who have strong views about the unemployed, and they agree to spend a number of days as unemployed people looking for work. If the trailer is anything to go by and the last version of this programme; Famous, Rich and Homeless, it is going to be good, it appears to me that the Famous and Rich in a unemployed person's situation got a very rude awakening. If anyone has similar views about the reality of the unemployed, watch this programme, for it will be very educational.

It is often found that those who moan the most about the benefit scroungers are people who have never been in the situation themselves, and that includes the mealy mouthed politicians who find those totally dependant on government an easy target to blame for society's ills. No doubt the politicians would like to be spending the social welfare money somewhere else, but can't , money is tight all around, so the money is spoken for, which invites blame. Never do the politicians think their  continuous ineffective management of the country created the problem in the first place.

Britain used to have heavy industry with highly skilled people to run it, the country used to be largely self sufficient, but all that has gone now the jobs are not there to be had and  to be realistic for someone to quit the benefits system, there has got to be hope there with good jobs with good prospects to be had, sadly in Britain, those times have long gone, the workforce if not hanging onto their jobs by their fingernails accepting what shit is thrown at them to keep that job are now largely redundant.

Oh, and in a way expanding on the disatisfaction in the UK job market, I hear today the job centre staff are on strike over pay and conditions of employment, so it seems they are not excused from the job malaise either. Well, at least benefit claimants had a day away from that god awful place.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/8/2010 10:38:11 AM >


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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 10:41:40 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

the Conservatives here are big on it, but one gets the impression this isnt for the sake of the dependents but more for the sake of their "get tough on dole layabouts" core constituency.


Why couldn't you get the Liberals there to be "big on it" by pointing out the Corporate "dole layabouts" would be negatively impacted while the current beneficiaries would only have the source and delivery method of their entitlements changed. I'd bet the battle lines would be re-drawn.

quote:

As long as it could be effected properly (according to my ideas of properly I'll admit) and for the right reasons, I'd see no problem in extending it as you say to those who want to work off student loans and the like. There would also have to be provision for things like childcare and travel to work of course, which benefits alone wont support, and which would be requisites to enabling it to happen.
I always wondered by the 'Kibbutz' system was uniquely an Israeli institution. Don't know if it still is; but health care and travel would be integral jobs needing workers.

quote:

Any welfare to work programme would have to tread carefully around the possible issues here and with the potential issues in itself as it impacts the wider labour market - what we do not want is employers paying benefits rather than minimum wage and thereby undercutting some of the workforce as it stands.
You've picked up upon what I believe to be the highest hurdle to overcome. It would have to be a 'closed system'. All participation, goods and services, would come from the currently benefit receiving community. How do you do that without benefiting the current corporate welfare recipients you hope to eliminate?

Your prison example is a good one, but consider; prior to the 'good intent' rehabilitation versus prison is for punishment transition, the prison 'slave labor' was intended to serve the same 'self sufficient' goal. Considering the level of corruption, I would think oversight and audit to be the key positions within the community. Staffed by great, smart, college graduates working off their accounting degrees and CPA certifications; I would think it would serve their personal best interest to have the communities best interest served. The private sector would love to draw upon a new employee pool that had piratical as well as academic theory experience.

Common area entertainment, child care; all would have to be considered in the model. Not an idyllic or perhaps even an idyllic life, but one that would provide the means and access to leave it if the desire, initiative, and ability was there. If it wasn't or if the "cultural issues, mental illnesses, and substance abuse" made that impossible; they government entity would provide, and no corporation would benefit from the process.

Ideally set up as 'break even' operations with everything provided for the participants at zero cost; any 'profits' generated by selling off excess goods/services these entities generate would be redistributed back to every community member equally. The 'best' workers, would be recruited by the private sector who would have to compensate them considering their current situation inclusive of suitable residence, transportation, benefits and salary. It would raise the standard of both those using the entitlement programs as well as incentives and rewards those who get off of it.

It would only lower the private labor market and private industry if the communities produced such a idyllic Utopian community that nobody wanted to leave it. However if that did occur would a content functioning interdependent all inclusive society be a bad result?

If corporate welfare is really the common enemy why would either side argue against its elimination?

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 10:49:49 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
As long as it could be effected properly (according to my ideas of properly I'll admit) and for the right reasons, I'd see no problem in extending it as you say to those who want to work off student loans and the like. There would also have to be provision for things like childcare and travel to work of course, which benefits alone wont support, and which would be requisites to enabling it to happen.

There could be problems with expecting people to work a forty hour week for sixty pounds or whatever JSA pays at the moment, couldn't there? That's a bit beneath the minimum wage.

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 12:19:05 PM   
popeye1250


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L.E., sounds almost like you could be describing the U.S.
There are two main problems here,this mindless never ending immigration which puts a downward pressure on wages and the decline of manufacturing and the tendancy to "import" everything further pushing down wages and decreasing the amount of jobs that are (available.)

Strategically you never want to lose your manufacturing base but because of" business" having too much influence in governments that's what's happened due to *greed!* So now, instead of making 200-400% profit products that are made in foreign slave shops can be sold for 2000% profit benefitting only "business."
Whenever I hear the term "business and government partnering together" I know someone is going to have their pants pulled down and get fucked.
Business is solely motivated by *profit* they couldn't care about "The People."
As for the immigration part it's supposed to make a country "better." That's just not happening anymore. And why is it that only Western countries are engaging in that foolishness? England and the U.S. are mature countries and simply don't need "immigration" anymore with the possable exception of very highly skilled proffessionals such as M.D.s, Nurses, Engineers etc. Even then too many and the wages start falling.
What both England and the U.S. need to do is to get back their manufacturing bases so that people can get jobs at good wages and get off "welfare."
At one time you could "work your way out of poverty" in this country, no more it seems! That just shows how much undue influence that "business" has over our governments.
It'd be nice to be able to buy some top quality cutlery from "Sheffield" again!

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 12:22:53 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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My solution is similiar to Merc's and I've stated it before. .

You build communities, in these  you are required to follow strict rules while in the community, you have to either work, and or be pursuing an education, and or getting treatment for alcoholism for example. You  are restricted by choice by the mere fact of agreeing to be there, and be helped, beyond the general population, to curfew, mandatory attendance standards, etc..

Minimum period of two years, or dependent upon education requirements, and or apprenticeships, etc...

Now, you can stay there forever if you select, and you follow the guidelines, though the compensation for work, will be less, though you will have all the basics you'd want and are being prepared for more opportunities in the future.

Essentially, I detest the notion of welfare without consequence. The consequence and concession in my mind of receiving welfare is that whatever you were doing before did not work, therefore instead of just throwing money at you, we are going to require you to increase your odds of success, in order to receive such, barring of course complete disability. If you simply are not willing to work towards being self-sufficient, enjoy your 50 dollars a month spending money, and food provided in the kitchen 3 times a day, and your small one room apartment, and curfew, and restrictions.

Now, we could have a short period of general support, without having to enter such a program, however, this multi-year bullshit of doling out benefits and not demanding anything in return for it would be over.







< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 3/8/2010 12:27:01 PM >

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 12:31:47 PM   
thornhappy


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Damn, Merc, that would make for a hell of an increase in government, just to oversee all those activities and institutions.  Ya big government lunk, ya!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

The question remains for me though as to whether this activity is symptomatic or causal.
You left out a deliberately designed. I guess you could argue whether it was a conscience effort to create the business opportunity or not; but you can't argue that corporate minds took advantage of the conditions.

However, your question is tangential and distracts from the solution. Now you may think here is where we have no common ground. My solution would be to eliminate the corporate welfare payments. No subsidiaries, no prop up pricing, no government purchase of goods and services for redistribution. Couldn't happen. The poster child poor would be bloom like dandelions in spring and it would be the PACs putting their face out there. Not to protect the individuals but to protect their corporate interests. I don't support implementing that practice as it would only work on one half of the equation.

The other half may surprise you. Direct government take over of the source benefits provided. That would mean, government farms, government delivery infrastructure, government stores, government owned housing. Staffed, managed, and serving the same constituency. You want food - work on the farm or at some stage of the delivery process. You want a government backed loan to go to college, your repayment is working at a government facility for a specific term. Want to be a doctor or nurse educated with government paid tuition - you work off your tuition working at a 'free' government health providing facility.

All goods and services provided at 'break even' pay. No 'minimum wage' but you get the entitlements. Want to better yourself - get off the dole. The ambitious, the self sufficient would thrive. The complacent and lazy would be no worse than they are now. The only pockets taking a big hit - the corporate welfare recipients.

The government seems to 'bail out' and focus on failures; making that an attractive goal for both corporate and individuals so inclined to fail. Buy the successes exploiting the system and you have a better chance of breaking the system as well as the philosophy of rewarding failure .

Socialism! So what? To me its seems he socialist fear that label more than I do implementing socialist programs.

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 12:44:13 PM   
Aneirin


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Interesting, would you submit yourself to such a system if you should find yourself unlucky enough to be unemployed ?


Perhaps welfare could even be seen as compensation for the country failing it's people by not providing the opportunities such and such  was voted into power to deal with. Just what is in every political party's vying for election's manifesto, every one of them, since how many years ago has said they are going to do something about jobs.

Oh and one other thing, the government appoints companies to educate the unemployed, to make them more employable, participation is compulsory, failure to comply means benefits withheld, one is in effect booted off benefits. The company A4E springs to mind, reports suggest just turning up  is enough to pass the course, they teach largely nothing of use, and insulting to many claimant's intelligence.


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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 12:54:27 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Interesting, would you submit yourself to such a system if you should find yourself unlucky enough to be unemployed ?


Perhaps welfare could even be seen as compensation for the country failing it's people by not providing the opportunities such and such  was voted into power to deal with. Just what is in every political party's vying for election's manifesto, every one of them, since how many years ago has said they are going to do something about jobs.

Oh and one other thing, the government appoints companies to educate the unemployed, to make them more employable, participation is compulsory, failure to comply means benefits withheld, one is in effect booted off benefits. The company A4E springs to mind, reports suggest just turning up  is enough to pass the course, they teach largely nothing of use, and insulting to many claimant's intelligence.



Yeah, what's so bad about it? So, let's say I was jobless, lacked skills to get a job, and broke, and someone said, hey, I'll pay for you to get educated as a nurse, or auto repair mechanic, or whatever marketable in demand job, and while you are there, we'll feed you, house you, and pay some money (more than 50 if you are working, obviously). But you have to be in by 11, you, have to attend your classes and make good grades. And once out well, we will (forgot to add this), require you to either help teach the next batch, and or apply your knowledge for the communities benefit.

Hell, yeah, I'd have done that.

Free Education.
Free Food.
Free Housing.

All I'm asking is you would learn something, and make yourself employable in a decent job.

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RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 1:18:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Merc, that would make for a hell of an increase in government, just to oversee all those activities and institutions. Ya big government lunk, ya!
Yeah - I'm a "big government luck" when it comes to solving issues instead of perpetuating them. Getting to the core of the problem, corporate welfare, and eliminating it, by taking the profit out of it; may appear to point to '"increase in government" but it is not. It is using the exact same government resource, taking out the corporate profit motive which currently serves to keep those affected unable to improve their condition. It would take the same government resources and point it to working to solve the problems which are currently using those resources to perpetuate them through generations.

The oversight along with the results would be driven by those involved. When you have to make it work to survive, imagine the incentive to do so. Take all the money currently used to subsidize farm industries and use it to set up the appropriate infrastructure from top to bottom. The offer to the existing "fat-cat" corporate farmers; "The subsidiary is gone as of 1/1/2012. No government entity will purchase any goods to inflate your price. All suppliers will be similarly notified. You have a year and a half to retrench, come up with a new business plan to accommodate the change, or sell at 'par value'.

The government is already doing this now, except at an inflated price insuring corporate profits. Yet, the corporations could still exist and serve the private market as was originally intended. Meanwhile, the public sector would serve themselves, outside the private economic profit structure.

Granted it's an academic exercises; one which would never to be considered. However, in the spirit of the same academic theory which spawned the current nonworking psychotic public versus private interests served; closing both systems and having the 'best' win, would be interesting. No worker would be 'exploited' since they instead can choose to live in the communal 'government' environment. No longer would big evil corporations have money distributed to their executives coming from public funds. It should make everyone thrilled!

No money going to corporations or any private entity and making private industry and commerce self serving would be a good test for the 'capitalist' model. While a closed public self serving community using government resources would be a good test of the 'socialist' model. I wonder which would serve their constituency best? Would the level of 'jealousy' and envy from both sides be as prevalent? Would you work to be in the group operating as a commune or the one where everything you had was a direct product of your effort?

What do you think?

quote:

the government appoints companies to educate the unemployed, to make them more employable, participation is compulsory, failure to comply means benefits withheld, one is in effect booted off benefits. The company A4E springs to mind, reports suggest just turning up is enough to pass the course, they teach largely nothing of use, and insulting to many claimant's intelligence


They have those, virtually worthless, 're-education' camps here in the USA too. However, once again, they point to a mid-level corporate welfare situation. They are heavily subsidized and the majority of the tuition is paid through a variety of government entitlement programs. These places produce virtually worthless paper 'degrees' and 'certifications' for jobs that don't exist.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 2:39:06 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

This is ONLY for lady E.   No one else is wanting to see it.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VIq38wDfIU

or

<object width="320" height="265"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0VIq38wDfIU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0VIq38wDfIU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="265"></embed></object>

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 3:11:12 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
As long as it could be effected properly (according to my ideas of properly I'll admit) and for the right reasons, I'd see no problem in extending it as you say to those who want to work off student loans and the like. There would also have to be provision for things like childcare and travel to work of course, which benefits alone wont support, and which would be requisites to enabling it to happen.

There could be problems with expecting people to work a forty hour week for sixty pounds or whatever JSA pays at the moment, couldn't there? That's a bit beneath the minimum wage.


Did you read about Mark Oaten ? It seeems he was paid appearance money to be on a similar show. This one was aired recently and about how to live on a weeks benefit money.

His fee was £4,000 for a few days work. JSA would only pay around £3,200 for a whole year. The irony in this is staggering, he now claims to have given "some" of the money to the council tenants that he met.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 3:38:42 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
If he did indeed give money to some of the council tennants he met and they were claimants of benefits, surely the authorities would like to know whom was given the money, as money given counts as extra income, which affects benefit entitlement, he could have in his apparent generousity actually have caused problems for those he gave to.

Money received equals benefits not entitled to equals less money the authorities have to pay out and we all know the authorities want to pay less money out in benefits, oh dear.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/8/2010 3:40:17 PM >


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: social welfare dependents - 3/8/2010 8:31:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

the social welfare claimant, described as an indolent, malingering freeloader by some and held up as victim of circumstance by others.



I'm just enjoying reading the thread, LadyE, but did want to add that I don't see why we cannot acknowledge both sorts of participants are there.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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