RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 7:30:29 AM)

I have seen no evidence that Dan Rather supported Obama, in fact I believe he was a Hillary Clinton supporter (and Bill btw). Do you have a valid cite?



kittinSol -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 7:31:16 AM)

Don't lie again, will you? It's naughty. You rejoiced at the idea of the death of the Democratic party. That's not pro-democracy. You'd rather the United States were under the thumb of the one and only party you support. Supporting a party isn't being a fascist. Advocating the death of your opposition is.



Sanity -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:22:15 AM)


I wouldn't mind seeing the Democrats replaced by four or five parties. You could have the Greens, and the Black Panthers, and the Socialists, and the Communists...

All that aside though, could you tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't giggle with delight if the Republican Party went the way of the Blacksmith?

Yeah, you're the one who's lying.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Don't lie again, will you? It's naughty. You rejoiced at the idea of the death of the Democratic party. That's not pro-democracy. You'd rather the United States were under the thumb of the one and only party you support. Supporting a party isn't being a fascist. Advocating the death of your opposition is.




Smutmonger -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:25:09 AM)

I want to see the rise of "the pragmatic party." People who do things based on reality and how well things will really work. Not just a bunch of pie in the sky religious dogmas-or insane socialism that's never going to be funded properly anyhow.



servantforuse -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:32:12 AM)

I might support Obama care when every member of the House and Senate use the same plan we will be forced to use...



Moonhead -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:32:19 AM)

I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't get on to the mods to include a definition of socialism in the faqs for this forum.



Musicmystery -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:32:57 AM)

quote:

All that aside though, could you tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't giggle with delight if the Republican Party went the way of the Blacksmith?


The Republican Party that was has an important voice in American politics, and a voice I respect. I don't always agree, but some points need strong advocates--like free trade, for instance, and keeping defense an important topic, if one over-addressed.

The Republican Party that has evolved in recent years? I'm still hoping the reasonable among them will rise and force out those who have so bizzarely corrupted what used to be a sane platform.

Those dissenters should just leave the party and form their own. Enough with the rino and tea party nonesense. Find your balls and start your own party.

As for the rest of Republicans, the ones blinded by calls for a permanent majority or the importance of rubber stamping the President as one no matter what, please wake up and rejoin reality.





kittinSol -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:34:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

All that aside though, could you tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't giggle with delight if the Republican Party went the way of the Blacksmith?



Yes, I can tell you that with a straight face, because despite the hardcore wingnuts that took over most of the RNC, there is still a core of moderate conservatives that are deserving of respect. I don't like the two-two party system, but since that's what we're stuck with, democracy needs a working and constructive opposition. Right now, that's not what the Republicans are giving us. It's a shame, but hopefully they'll shed the crazies and become operational again. One day. You, on the other hand, are completely incapable of even admitting that there is something good to be found in Democratic principles. You have demonstrated this again, and again, on these forum boards.

quote:



Yeah, you're the one who's lying.



Everybody knows that you have not an iota of intellectual honesty, and your pathetic attempt at presuming what I think has failed (see above). Like all extremists, you're prone to lying. I just wonder whether you're prey to your own illusions, and if you truly believe that you fool anybody here.




Musicmystery -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:37:38 AM)

~FR~

quote:

intellectual honesty


Just for the record, of all the inane buzzword trends that have come and gone in political "discourse," this grates more than most.

Just doesn't have that "gravitas." Who "vetted" this phrase?



Moonhead -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:41:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I might support Obama care when every member of the House and Senate use the same plan we will be forced to use...

What, being forced to use the public option and denied the ability to take out a massively overpriced and underprotecting medical care policy is now part of the bill?



kittinSol -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:42:26 AM)

Intellectual honesty is the capacity to be honest about one's own motives in a discussion. Intellectual dishonesty (the art Sanity has mastered) is the capacity to be dishonest in the course of a discussion. It's making a point one knows is wrong, or only partially true. It's arguing for the sake of it, and it's refusing to acknowledge the validity of an opponent's point of view even though one might see it.



Musicmystery -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:44:36 AM)

I know what it means.

It's still a silly, annoying buzzword, in ever greater use.

In a few years, the coolness worn off, it too will fall into disuse.



kittinSol -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:46:29 AM)

I don't know whether it's a buzzword or not *shrug*, but it's been used in France for decades. I like it :-) . Sorry you don't. The point still remains.



Musicmystery -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:47:15 AM)

Granted. No worries.



RacerJim -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 8:52:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Show me the overwhelming numbers of people who do not want health care reform.



Typical liberal retort...misrepresent what a conservative said. "health care reform" is one thing, "Obamacare" is quite another thing altogether. Pick a current major poll, any current major poll...any/all of them will show that the overwhelming numbers of people definitely want the former but they just as definitely do not want the latter, and are especially opposed to/upset with how the Democrats have gone about trying to shove it down their throats.



Moonhead -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 9:01:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Show me the overwhelming numbers of people who do not want health care reform.



Typical liberal retort...misrepresent what a conservative said. "health care reform" is one thing, "Obamacare" is quite another thing altogether. Pick a current major poll, any current major poll...any/all of them will show that the overwhelming numbers of people definitely want the former but they just as definitely do not want the latter, and are especially opposed to/upset with how the Democrats have gone about trying to shove it down their throats.


Translation: this would be good if McCain was doing it, but because Obama's a Democrat it must be shit, even if he is doing his award winning Republican impression over it.



Musicmystery -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 9:10:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Typical liberal retort...misrepresent what a conservative said. "health care reform" is one thing, "Obamacare" is quite another thing altogether.

And then you do the same. Interesting intellectual tactic. But either effective nor convincing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
Pick a current major poll, any current major poll...any/all of them will show that the overwhelming numbers of people definitely want the former but they just as definitely do not want the latter, and are especially opposed to/upset with how the Democrats have gone about trying to shove it down their throats.

Actually, no.

As someone already noted, ask about the bill's points one by one, and support is high.

Ask about Republican opposition, and guess what?







rulemylife -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 9:16:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Tazzy:

check out Gallup, Rasmussen CNN, Huffington Post and any other poll you can. It's not that the People don't want Healthcare reform, it's that they don't want this particular bill. And to be honest with you I cannot for the life of me understand what that dipshit President of ours is doing trying to cram it down our throats. It absolutely baffles and befuddles me. Not for the reasons you may think. It's political suiicide for his party if he does it with reconcilliation, he has as much said so himself. < losing seats in the fall > The overwhelming majority of Americans want healthcare reform, so why not begin anew and come up with a plan that will satisfy the needs of the people, the desires of the people and both parties.


They don't want this particular bill because they do not understand this particular bill and rely on second-hand information.


FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Health Care Polls

How would public opinion change if people were fully informed about the content of the bills? It's hard to say for sure, but on average, the individual components of the bill are favored by a net of +22 points. An NBC poll in August also found that support went from a -6 net to a +10 when people were actually provided with a description of the bill.



I would even be willing to bet that you don't really understand what the bill contains, yet your dislike of Obama and adherence to Republican talking points has led you to believe that over a year's worth of work should be totally scrapped for no good reason.

If the Republicans were serious about health reform they would have initiated their own legislation while they held power.  They had all time in the world to do it in between defeating Clinton's proposal and the current attempt at reform.

If the Republicans were serious about health reform they would be asking to build on the items in the current bills they support rather than starting from scratch.

If the Republicans were serious about health reform they would have issued a comprehensive proposal of their own, not a half-page talking points memo that they tried to present as an alternative.

Let's face some reality here.  The only thing the GOP is trying to do is delay as long as possible to kill any attempts at health care reform. 

And if they do have success in the November elections then we'll all be on the losing end, including people like you who want health care reform but continually allow yourselves to be duped.



Lucylastic -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 9:17:22 AM)

AAAAAAH ok, I thought intellectual dishonesty was the PC way of calling someone a lying bag of shit.... my bad[:D][:D][:D]
now Im gonna have to think of another word for them.
[8|][;)]



thompsonx -> RE: The BEST reason yet to pass Healthcare Reform (3/10/2010 9:25:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

I want healthcare reform, just so I can go to the doctor if I need to.


Wanna play doctor...I make house calls[;)]



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