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Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 4:01:58 AM

susie

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I couldn't decide where to post this, Politics and religion or humour so I split the difference.

I am not a believer in god but I have no problems with anyone that does believe unless they start trying to force to believe. As I seem to have way too much time to waste online these days, I use a chat site which keeps me entertained for hours. I am often asked for my religion and most are accepting that I have none. However, there are a large number of people from Africa that cannot accept that I have no belief in god and they make huge efforts to prove me wrong. I have had the usual "who made you?" "who made the sun" type of question so today I asked someone for proof that god exists. Following his response I might just have to rethink things, he said

"have you ever wondered why you have not visited the dentist for artifical teeth? that is because of god"

That really really has to be the best proof so far!

Anyone got anything better??

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 4:32:07 AM

DesFIP

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It's a leap of faith. Literally. You either do take it or you cannot.

But to be honest, I've met more than my share of people who believe but are unkind people who cheat and lie. So this isn't something that matters to me nearly as much as their character and ethics. Claim to believe in God but hate gays? Not someone I would want to engage with.

Why not turn the questions around and ask how it manifests in his/her life?

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 6:38:57 AM

VirginPotty

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You feel that slight subtle Spring wind on your face but do not see it.
You have faith it exists.
You feel God in your life but do not see Him.
You have faith He exists.

You see the trees bending from the strong winds & yet you still do not see the winds but know they exist.
You feel like God is not in your life right now because it's in turmoil but He is there.
You have faith He exists.

My favorite saying is going to be paraphrased but will get the point across....
"Live like you're trying to get into Heaven. If it exists you're in, if not what was the harm"?

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 7:11:10 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

I couldn't decide where to post this, Politics and religion or humour so I split the difference.

I am not a believer in god but I have no problems with anyone that does believe unless they start trying to force to believe. As I seem to have way too much time to waste online these days, I use a chat site which keeps me entertained for hours. I am often asked for my religion and most are accepting that I have none. However, there are a large number of people from Africa that cannot accept that I have no belief in god and they make huge efforts to prove me wrong. I have had the usual "who made you?" "who made the sun" type of question so today I asked someone for proof that god exists. Following his response I might just have to rethink things, he said

"have you ever wondered why you have not visited the dentist for artifical teeth? that is because of god"

That really really has to be the best proof so far!

Anyone got anything better??

Any better proof? Nope. Actually, that's the only thing left to the "God exists and here's why" folks.

Just a twist on the ancient "argument from design." We see that argument currently in America (and to a lesser extent, worldwide) as "Intelligent Design," which is the latest incarnation of "Creation Science."

You come across a watch in the field, who made it? A higher intelligence since it could not have evolved.

A whirlwind goes across a junk-yard. What are the chances of it coming out the other side as a Boeing 747?

You have good teeth. What are the chances you evolved with them?

All three of these are logical errors. Since a watch and a Boeing 747 were designed by an intelligent being, therefore anything we can't explain must be designed by a higher being. Since the speaker hasn't studied genetics and evolution, he is unfamiliar with alternate explanations.

Here's the simple example parallel to the original question... Who makes thunder? If he has some ancient tribal compnents woven into his (I'll guess) missionary-style Christianity, you might get an answer different than an American raised high school student.

Maybe a water supply might be a good example, especially if he has experience in praying to the rain gods and now enjoys water delivered through the pipes. If he was praying to the rain gods, does he now pray to any water god?

Hope this was helpful. I was a Peace Corps Volunteer on a Caribbean island (nice gig, if you can get it!) in 1971-72 (yeah, yeah...... last century, I know.) I found the same kinda reaction down there.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:11:41 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

<snipped>

My favorite saying is going to be paraphrased but will get the point across....
"Live like you're trying to get into Heaven. If it exists you're in, if not what was the harm"?

That is "Pascal's Wager" and has been answered many a time. Chose your Heaven carefully. Some Heavens preclude the eating of pork. Some preclude the eating of beef.

I'm guessing that you speak of living an ethical life. I live an ethical life, but I have NO morals. There is a tremendous difference, usually ignored. A simple example: Until recently, one could not purchase package goods (alcohol by the bottle, excepting low-alcohol beer) in Colorado on Sundays....... What's up with that? Many jusrisdictions still have "blue laws," a name for what can NOT be done on Sundays since that is the Lord's Day.

Those blue laws are moral and religious in direct contra-indication to the First Amendment.

The parallel ethical laws are those prohibiting drunk driving on ANY day of the week. Consider the out-cry should the drunk driving laws be changed, only prohibiting drunk-driving on Sundays.

I'd like to suggest this as your "favorite" quote. It's by Madalyn Murray (before she married O'Hair and from the Murray v. Curlett case: "An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now, here on earth, for all men together to enjoy..."

It does go on for a while. Select and paraphrase to your heart's content.

Here's a more recent (November 21, 2005) ethical life explanation by Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller fame) that is titled "There Is No God" and was broadcast on the NPR series called "What I Believe." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

Here's a quote that you might want to use:

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:29:32 AM

VirginPotty

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OP, need proof that God exists? Just look at Lance's pic! Hubba hubba baby!

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:29:59 AM

Wolf2Bear

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Form one who doesn't believe in god and I can say I have no religion, at least in the modern context. Yet I am quite spiritual and I see proof each time I wake up every morning, each time I I walk outside and I hear the wind in the trees or see a smile on a child's face. Maybe it is fortunate that I don't have the ability to prove or disprove the existence of god as I don't have the ability nor the understanding to define who or what god is. As I see it, I am simply a mortal human who is bound to learn all I can in this lifetime because the next one holds infinite more experiences to discover.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:48:06 AM

LanceHughes

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Full text:

"YOUR PETITIONERS ARE ATHEISTS and they define their life-style as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellowman instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellowman can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfilment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellowman rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god, nor channel action into prayer, nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."

~ Madalyn Murray (later O'Hair), preamble to Murray v. Curlett, U.S. Supreme Court, April 27, 1961

ETA date.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 3/11/2010 8:49:43 AM >

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:51:18 AM

LanceHughes

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Bear: Please read Penn link and c'mon back, okay?

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:53:42 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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quote:

"who made you?" "who made the sun"

i have a theory on this. suppose for a moment there is a God and that he did create everything. now, suppose that he's not as "all powerful" as is the claim. in theory, could it be possible that he ran out of power after creating all these things and can no long affect turns of events or anything else for that matter? like i said, it's only a theory.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 8:55:53 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear
...I am quite spiritual and I see proof each time I wake up every morning, each time I I walk outside and I hear the wind in the trees or see a smile on a child's face.

This. Also:

I don't know if there was a creator; the universe is a closed system, which makes it impossible to see out of, so we will never have proof either way.

The existence (or not) of a potential creator has no bearing on whether or not there is an afterlife-this world could still be all we have, even if there is a big guy up there.

The existence (or not) of an afterlife doesn't necessarily mean we have to do anything in particular to get there-why are we assuming a creator is automatically ethical and kind? Hurricanes and malaria suggest the opposite...

I find it really really really unlikely that if there is a creator and there is an afterlife, entry to which does require a specific set of behaviours, one of the world's religions would miraculously have stumbled upon the list of these behaviours.

So I try to live my life in a way that would make those I love proud, and I don't worry about what might happen after I'm done, because time spent trying to eff the ineffable is time I could be using to play my guitar.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 3/11/2010 8:56:40 AM >

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:02:21 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

OP, need proof that God exists? Just look at Lance's pic! Hubba hubba baby!

Thanks, VP. I'm a dead-ringer for my Dad. He left me more than his last name. (I once had to handle his dick in the hospital - not sexual in any sense of the word, but I remember the size.) Suspicion that he was gay. Can't confirm since he died just before I was 21, and I didn't "figure out" anything until I was a few years older.

Oh, yeah. My "real" patronym has anagram of "Long Hard." LOL! Wide, too. I get complaints from the boys all the time..... am currently training a cock-hound (from CollarMe) to deep-throat, but I digress.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:05:34 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It's a leap of faith. Literally. You either do take it or you cannot.

But to be honest, I've met more than my share of people who believe but are unkind people who cheat and lie. So this isn't something that matters to me nearly as much as their character and ethics. Claim to believe in God but hate gays? Not someone I would want to engage with.

Why not turn the questions around and ask how it manifests in his/her life?

That's a pretty good explanation of difference between morality and ethics. Thanks!

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:10:45 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia

quote:

"who made you?" "who made the sun"

i have a theory on this. suppose for a moment there is a God and that he did create everything. now, suppose that he's not as "all powerful" as is the claim. in theory, could it be possible that he ran out of power after creating all these things and can no long affect turns of events or anything else for that matter? like i said, it's only a theory.

Then prayer to such a powerless God is futile. AND Christ's presence is a total lie - as is Ra, Thor, Moses and Mohammed, etc. - pick your prophet/god (small "G") What a waste of human labor and lives to build the various cathedrals, Mayan temples, and wats, not to mention the pyramids.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:12:58 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

What a waste of human labor and lives to build the various cathedrals, Mayan temples, and wats, not to mention the pyramids.

Hang about there, Lance-temples aren't just for gods. They can be centres of spirituality, of community, of learning-they can be as much for people as they are for religion.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:14:28 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia

quote:

"who made you?" "who made the sun"

i have a theory on this. suppose for a moment there is a God and that he did create everything. now, suppose that he's not as "all powerful" as is the claim. in theory, could it be possible that he ran out of power after creating all these things and can no long affect turns of events or anything else for that matter? like i said, it's only a theory.

Then prayer to such a powerless God is futile. AND Christ's presence is a total lie - as is Ra, Thor, Moses and Mohammed, etc. - pick your prophet/god (small "G") What a waste of human labor and lives to build the various cathedrals, Mayan temples, and wats, not to mention the pyramids.

people do as much for Gor, Star Trek, Star Wars, Renaissance festivals, and the Ic Capades ( Grinz, couldn't resist that reference)

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:18:50 AM

fragilepieces

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Great post! I too am a nonbeliever and I adore those who love to try and condem me for not believing. In regards to the god gives good teeth---I have a funny story. Not too long ago, I went to work on a Saturday morning---one of the coldest days of the year to take advantage of the overtime. I walk to work 99% of the time I rarely take my car out unless I have to; gas prices are way too high. So I am walking down the street focusing on the easy $100 I just made, and thinking about stopping at the bakery for a fresh loaf of bread to go with a dinner of chili and a car pulls up. The woman inside hands me a Jehova's witness watch tower and says "better days are coming." She must have thought I was poor and walking because I could not afford a car or maybe she thought I was homeless because no one in their right minds would be walking on such a cold day. She smiled at me and revealed a mouthful of broken rotten teeth. I smiled back making no attempt to take her brochure and said, "No thanks I have a great life and I don't believe in god." Perhaps I should have pointed at the building I just left and said, "Try there their dental insurance rocks! In 30 days you can get it no need to wait with blind faith." But I am nice.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:32:28 AM

LanceHughes

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Lance is sometimes (only sometimes) less nice. Some form of fundamentalist Christian ladies were running in a pack of three (all of them African-American.) I was walking in my demographically very poor neighborhood. They pushed their Christian brochures on me and I said, "Why are you nice ladies involved in a religion designed for slaves?" Silence, beat two, three. Shouted denials as I strolled out of ear-shot.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:39:15 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

Form one who doesn't believe in god and I can say I have no religion, at least in the modern context. Yet I am quite spiritual ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

What a waste of human labor and lives to build the various cathedrals, Mayan temples, and wats, not to mention the pyramids.

Hang about there, Lance-temples aren't just for gods. They can be centres of spirituality, ...

I have yet (in any discussion of god/religion) to see a definition of "spirituality." Please advise.

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RE: Is there a God? Best reasons to back it up - 3/11/2010 9:48:23 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
I have yet (in any discussion of god/religion) to see a definition of "spirituality." Please advise.

Ok, this is wiktionary, which isn't great, but I'm at uni so I have no proper dictionary :-(

quote:

Spirituality: Concern for that which is unseen and intangible, as opposed to physical or mundane

I accept that it might be sloppy use of language on my part, but I was using it to mean the feeling of internal stillness and quiet you get sitting in a cathedral, or at the top of a mountain. That can be powerful without being linked to any god or higher power.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 3/11/2010 9:49:05 AM >

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