RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center!

RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

slvemike4u -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 2:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u For clarification purposes when you state "as long as the government does not take any stance that either encourages or discourages,supports or condemns that behavior." Are you referring to the right of gay and lesbian members of our society to enjoy all the rights of that society.....particularly speaking of the right to have their union recognised in the same way hetero r/t's are recognised by the state? Sorry, but you won't drag me into a useless debate about gay "marriage". I'll simply say that the government recognizing legal unions between homosexuals is neither encouraging or discouraging, supporting or condemning. Who cares what they call it. Treasure I was not trying to drag you into anything...just asked for a clarification of your stated position....if you are uncomfortable in doing so,thats cool.

Musicmystery -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 2:07:34 PM)
And we don't need to debate the issues here---just separate out what they are.

DomKen -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 2:13:04 PM)
FR What is center versus left/right? In many cases it is holding the nuanced position on an issue. For instance on abortion the left position is that abortion should be available on demand with minimal restraints and the rights position is abortion should be illegal except to save the life of the mother (roughly in both cases). The centrist position seeks for abortion to be "safe, legal and rare" and is open to various restraints on when the procedure can be done.

VideoAdminZeta -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 3:12:58 PM)
We pulled this thread for a while to discuss it, because the title and OP name a specific user, which is usually not permitted. However, this thread contains a lot of good discussion, so we have decided to let it continue, with a post making sure everyone knows that it's not appropriate to use this thread as an opportunity to get personal about the user named in the OP.

Sanity -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 3:27:35 PM)
Thank the Mods that the thread can go on, I think its a great thread Muse, honestly. There was a kind of a "you DOG" moment there because of the way you started it, but I believe that the questions raised are fair. Regarding the post I'm responding to (quoted below) Lets define "the center". If the United States is a center-right nation, which it is, then the "center" for the United States would be center right, which is right where I am. I established in another thread that more Americans by a good margin define themselves as conservative than liberal. Do you recall that thread Muse, wherein you demanded my source and I happily provided you with the link to Gallup? The center, here in the United States, is Conservative. Not far right, but center right. And the collarme crowd is a lot farther to the left, there's no doubt about that I don't think. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And we don't need to debate the issues here---just separate out what they are.

eyesopened -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 3:31:34 PM)
I can say that I don't exactly know what "moderate" means. Like Julia, I have opinions on specific issues based on what I feel would benefit the most people. In my perfect world, government would act like a good parent, providing for the basics for the growth and success of the populace, allow enough freedom to make personal decisions and mistakes. Be available to help the populace out of a jam. Knowing when it's time for tough-love and when it's time to donate a kidney. I have no clue whether I am right, left, center or diagonal.

Musicmystery -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 3:40:50 PM)
quote: I think its a great thread Muse, honestly. I believe that the questions raised are fair. Thanks for being a good sport on this, Sanity. Kudos. I give you credit and respect for rolling with this so smoothly. quote: More Americans by a good margin define themselves as conservative than liberal. Do you recall that thread? I do, but your source broke it down more specifically than that, separating moderates into the conservative and liberal camps. People had to chose "very conservative" or "conservative," "very liberal" or "liberal," with no possibility of "somewhat conservative" or "somewhat liberal." This structural bias creates artificial extremes by refusing to comprehensively acknowledge the center. In short, the poll has a left/right paradigm bias, corrupting the results. quote: The center, here in the United States, is Conservative. Not far right, but center right. This designation doesn't really work. If the center is Conservative, what's Conservative--i.e., what's on the right of Conservative? This appears to define "moderate" as "conservative." That would put "moderates" on the left--which makes no sense, as they'd no longer be moderate. The "somewhat conservative" would have been the center right people, not the "conservative" group. The "somewhat conservative," middle, and "somewhat liberal" would have been the "moderate" group.

Woolrich -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 4:12:52 PM)
This is probably the wrong place to make a first post but.... Only having two parties leads to polarization that can't reflect reality. Two parties can't show the variety of viewpoints held by the populace or the range of problems we confront and need to solve. In government systems where there are multiple parties, you see nuance of thought that can't exist in a two-party system. A good example are socially conservative parties in Europe that are also rabidly pro-environment. Here in the United States, when I've mentioned such parties, people sometimes look at me as if that's inconceivable. So I'd argue that the fact we have a term for "moderates" that can't be described is a symptom of our broken political system. It shows that people are unhappy with the extremes that they are presented with but they don't have any other model, name, party or way to describe themselves except as "leaning right" or "leaning left" in some vague way.

popeye1250 -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 4:16:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: The majority of the posters on CM who identify themselves as "non-center" are pretty damn far left, in comparison to the beliefs of most Americans. I suspect it's the fact that so many of the "left" here act as an echo chamber for each other, that they believe that they are somehow "in the majority". Firm Here's the thing, though, Firm. Everything is presented as left vs. right, as if no other possibilities exist. But the majority of people are moderate. The left/right paradigm is a distortion. So what are these moderate views? Discount those you see as on the left, and set aside your views where you see them as conservative---what are the moderate positions? Music, correct. I believe in gay marriage, legalizing pot, healthcare for all, a woman's right to choose, keeping big business out of our government and a few in here have called me, ... "conservative!"... lol Gee, what do I have to "believe" before they call me "liberal", "political correctness, "global warming?" They'd have to call me an idiot if I believed in those two things! Most liberals are pussies anyway, I wouldn't want to be a liberal. From what I've seen in here and in other sites it's the "liberals" who are the most closed-minded and resistant to change. And then, they try to call themselves,..."progressives.?" LOL It seems to be, "their way or the highway." Nor would I want to be a "conservative." I think I'm pretty "moderate" except that I believe in the above civil liberties. I am I guess "conservative" in the fact that I don't want my govt doing many of the things that it does now and spending too much of our money, a "fiscal conservative" I guess but most people in the country probably feel that way.

Blackburn -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 4:54:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Woolrich This is probably the wrong place to make a first post but.... Only having two parties leads to polarization that can't reflect reality. Two parties can't show the variety of viewpoints held by the populace or the range of problems we confront and need to solve. In government systems where there are multiple parties, you see nuance of thought that can't exist in a two-party system. A good example are socially conservative parties in Europe that are also rabidly pro-environment. Here in the United States, when I've mentioned such parties, people sometimes look at me as if that's inconceivable. So I'd argue that the fact we have a term for "moderates" that can't be described is a symptom of our broken political system. It shows that people are unhappy with the extremes that they are presented with but they don't have any other model, name, party or way to describe themselves except as "leaning right" or "leaning left" in some vague way. Awesome post. I agree wholeheartedly quote: Primarily, most Americans - and most moderate Americans - are generally "liberal" on social issues, and "conservative" on financial and governmental issues. Firm Again, a very good starting point. I don't think "center" can be defined in the US as anything except the vast area separating modern day conservatives and liberals. I specify modern day since both conservative and liberal views have shifted quite a bit over time. On both of the two extremes, we find a combination of a few very bright and critical thinkers along with an amorphous pod of true believers. Oh, and a few rabble rousers thrown in to excite the pod. The thinkers, unfortunately, have difficulty tempering their utopian beliefs with practical reality and the pod has difficulty thinking for themselves at all. The pod is an angry lot on both sides, viewing variance from their extremes as a personal affront to their human rights. The far right and far left have a jolly time polarizing the big issues of society. The rest of us find them merely bewildering. Here in the center, it is possible to be firmly pro labor yet anti big government, pro individual freedoms yet anti abortion, pro social security yet anti welfare, and the list goes on and on. So I define the center as those who refuse the lure of knee jerk dogma and approach life with a more practical eye. As implied in Woolrich's comment above, neither the right nor the left represent the center. Not even vaguely. Yet the polarization or our simplistic two party system effectively guarantees that the center gets screwed. We now see the horrifying result of that: both Republicans and Democrats put forward policies that are more about maintaining wealth and power than about the mature husbandry of a great country. In short, center right is meaningless.

kdsub -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 6:19:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u The problem,IMO is that both parties respond to the noisiest and most active extremes of their respective base...which in both cases would fall outside the "center" veiwpoint. The true "center" is the actual "silent majority" Agnew mischaracterized in the early 70's I don't think us middle of the roads are silent at all...I'm sure not. I think it is the news media that does not believe middle of the road comments will get them higher in the ratings...They don't go looking for them...rather the nutcase with the big sign. I do blame our sensationalistic media but we...meaning the people who watch… must take some blame. After all media follows sample poles and ratings closely. Butch

juliaoceania -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 6:25:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: This is what I call "moderate", willing to change one's mind to be open to solutions because it is what seems "logical" at the time and what is "best".... in other words, not basing positions based upon ideology... I find moderation very tiresome to be honest... moderates base their opinions on the prevailing wisdom of the talking heads on TV, and they can be swayed, sometimes in a direction that doesn't actually favor them... julia, These two paragraphs appear to contradict each other. Clarify? Not contradictory at all.. sometimes people who are easily swayed are swayed the wrong way.. and just because something sounds good doesn't mean it is good... I find that people who operate from an ideology tend to think more critically about what is being proposed... and that includes the right too... we need suspicious questioning folks (not tinfoil hat wearers either)

thornhappy -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 6:52:40 PM)
Currently we don't have abortion on demand - we have Roe v Wade. You're not able to wander into any clinic and demand an abortion in the third trimester. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR What is center versus left/right? In many cases it is holding the nuanced position on an issue. For instance on abortion the left position is that abortion should be available on demand with minimal restraints and the rights position is abortion should be illegal except to save the life of the mother (roughly in both cases). The centrist position seeks for abortion to be "safe, legal and rare" and is open to various restraints on when the procedure can be done.

Musicmystery -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:08:10 PM)
quote: I don't think "center" can be defined in the US as anything except the vast area separating modern day conservatives and liberals. I specify modern day since both conservative and liberal views have shifted quite a bit over time. On both of the two extremes, we find a combination of a few very bright and critical thinkers along with an amorphous pod of true believers. Oh, and a few rabble rousers thrown in to excite the pod. The thinkers, unfortunately, have difficulty tempering their utopian beliefs with practical reality and the pod has difficulty thinking for themselves at all. The pod is an angry lot on both sides, viewing variance from their extremes as a personal affront to their human rights. The far right and far left have a jolly time polarizing the big issues of society. The rest of us find them merely bewildering. Here in the center, it is possible to be firmly pro labor yet anti big government, pro individual freedoms yet anti abortion, pro social security yet anti welfare, and the list goes on and on. So I define the center as those who refuse the lure of knee jerk dogma and approach life with a more practical eye. As implied in Woolrich's comment above, neither the right nor the left represent the center. Not even vaguely. Yet the polarization or our simplistic two party system effectively guarantees that the center gets screwed. We now see the horrifying result of that: both Republicans and Democrats put forward policies that are more about maintaining wealth and power than about the mature husbandry of a great country. In short, center right is meaningless. Great post.

Sanity -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:14:57 PM)
Except the center isn't what anyone thinks it is, the center is the center. If everyone's a conservative then the center is conservative. If most people are conservative then the center is still conservative. Denial doesn't change reality.

Musicmystery -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:18:46 PM)
Your source separated moderates into conservative and liberal camps. People had to chose "very conservative" or "conservative," "very liberal" or "liberal," with no possibility of "somewhat conservative" or "somewhat liberal." This structural bias creates artificial extremes by refusing to comprehensively acknowledge the center. In short, the poll has a left/right paradigm bias, corrupting the results. quote: The center, here in the United States, is Conservative. Not far right, but center right. This designation doesn't really work. If the center is Conservative, what's Conservative--i.e., what's on the right of Conservative? This appears to define "moderate" as "conservative." That would put "moderates" on the left--which makes no sense, as they'd no longer be moderate. The "somewhat conservative" would have been the center right people, not the "conservative" group. The "somewhat conservative," middle, and "somewhat liberal" would have been the "moderate" group.

domiguy -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:20:42 PM)
You are center right of that tree. It makes you look like a little man. That is reality.

Sanity -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:28:48 PM)
The poll is only complicated if you need it to be complicated. Here are a thousand words condensed in an easy to understand format called a 'picture' or a graph: [image]http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/hkh0rqeqgkyisw-fcnba5q.gif[/image] Don't forget to throw out the 4% "No Opinion" who were weighted on the Liberal side now, and look at the numbers. The center of the population isn't between Conservatives and Liberals, its somewhere between Conservatives and Moderates, with Liberals being out on the fringe. Whats the word for those on the fringes? Oh yes - "Extremists".

Kirata -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Except the center isn't what anyone thinks it is, the center is the center. If everyone's a conservative then the center is conservative. Except, your second sentence invalidates the first one. The center is the center, regardless of whether or not anybody is standing there. K.

Musicmystery -> RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! (3/12/2010 8:33:56 PM)
Here's something I share with Freshmen. About 45% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 5%. About 80% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 10%. Those are the poll numbers. Concluding, however, that most Freshmen are in the top 10% makes no sense.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875